Husband's affair: moving forwards in the right direction

[tomatoplantproject]

Previous thread here

Story so far:
Dh had a 7 month affair which I discovered 1 month ago just after he ended it.
We had been having problems in our marriage since the start of the affair which I took the blame for
He has moved out, my toddler dd and I are in the family home.
We had started having couples counselling before I discovered the affair which we are now using to deal with the aftermath
So far he wants reconciliation but doesn't seem to be going about it the right way. I am in 2 minds and hope the right course of action emerges over the next few weeks dependant on his behaviour/way he speaks about me.
Unfortunately the counselling tonight, when I had planned to spill out all of my feelings, has been cancelled. We are still meeting though.
With the support of my amazing parents, a handful of close friends, my adorable dd and of course the wonderful wise ladies of mumsnet I am ok.

Wee In my case the OW is from the Arab world from some sect of Islam (I do not exactly understand this aspect and I do not care about it.) My H is atheist - nothing to do with Islam at all. He knows about Islam as he knows about all religions (he is curious.) His family (as far as he can go back) is your classical Western family- a mixture of Judeo-Christian faiths but nothing to do with Islam. I hope this is satisfying as info because I do not intend to say more about it- it is not relevant to this post and it is not even relevant to my case. He is wrong. He knows it. He works hard to make up for his misdeeds. He does not ask for absolution or forgiveness or excuses. I have stopped reading books about cheating a long time ago.
I just advise the ones I remember as being very helpful. Because I am on MN not to ask for support but to try and support. If the OP thinks that I am not a good support then I am more than willing to stop posting on her thread.
If you are interested I am now reading about China (a fascinating book: I am going soon to visit China) and about Japan ( a very high IQ but a very bizarre social tradition- BTW my Samurai of H is fascinated by the Japanese ethich of work and their hard/harsh discipline and he was speaking a lot about Hara-Kiri at the time of the affair. He told me he will kill himself when he is too old or crippled to serve me and our kids!. Now I understand why he said that). I am right now into finances and Maths calculations.
I am healed.
Healing is possible Tom even if you do not fully understand why he did what he did. Time is a good healer. Fighting for the best interests of your kids, or just to save a long- term relationship (nothing like the savor and quality the time adds to a relationship) and showing compassion when the betrayer is expressing remorse, working hard to resolve his/her issues and behaves as a dedicated healer to you, can be very tough and emotionally taxing but in my opinion it is rewarding. Many might disagree. It is OK. I like when they are honest and say it upfront. Wee you clearly said that cheating for you is a break dealer and you behave accordingly despite the difficulties you face in the divorce . I respect this. Tom might decide that it is not worth staying in this relationship. I will respect this and I will offer her some supporting posts if she wants.
Tom have a nice day. I go back to my work. Tea time is over.

Thank you Mama :)

My pleasure Wee . I really think that you are brave and wise. And I do admire you. You said you got married at the age of 16, and yet you come across as a very intelligent and highly educated woman with a lot of courage and self-confidence - all this despite the bad husband you had to put up with for many years, and (if my understanding is correct- please forgive me if I am wrong) despite the milieu you live in (ME) that might frown upon women divorcees. But your sons fully support you; that says it all about you: an extraordinary woman and Mum!
Tom I hope this digression helps you calm your mind that now struggles to make sense of conflicting emotions/thoughts. Good Luck!

Tom, I wanted to come back to the point people are making about his sister probably passing on to him what you want him to be doing.

The bottom line for me is - do you want to spend the rest of your life with a husband who has such stunted or shallow emotions that he cant do what he should be doing unless someone else is telling him what he has to do.

For me this is what its all about. That for the rest of your life you will be with a man who cant get it, and who will always have to be the one being understood, put first, considered etc, while you slowly become invisible to the extent if you look in the mirror you wont see yourself.

I think for some people it is 'only' about the things Christine and Mama speak of but I just instinctively feel its way more than that for you and its why I would really like you to think about the life Ive described above.

Mama, I live in one of those countries where things are very different to what is normally perceived to be the life of a woman in the ME.

And yes, Im very lucky with my family. In fact if just spent the morning with one of my girls and one of my sons is on his way in to have lunch with me and hear about my holiday. MY DIL and grandson have gone to Europe for the summer and I fully expect him to be back sleeping here by tomorrow. Just to keep me company you understand

Wee

What if you mean ' only' the things I speak of?

Im sorry Christine - I don't understand.

I tried very carefully not to minimise anything women go through with an average jo bloggs kind of cheater and I was hoping that by saying 'only' - people would undertstand.

I was just wondering what I ' only' speak of and am trying to find the similarities between myself and mama posts

What I don't see from all these posts is insight into what he would be doing if he did mean the contrite act and how it would be different. It is all very well to say 'he would have left you alone for 6 weeks' but I think someone genuinely sorry would very easily have not done that. I think that 'I' vs 'you' conversation shift is really difficult for people in particular guys to get, mainly because women have thought and talked through relationships much more to see these distinctions really clearly. I have found that in our marriage and I have a truly wonderful DH with whom I am madly in love.

There was something I took from our premarital counselling - draw a circle and that is DH, a circle and that is me, and a circle that overlaps the two of them and that is us(or our family if children), then during the conversation I can point out how he is still only really filling up his own circle, and when he improved he was still only filling up the us circle and my circle was pretty much empty and had been used up for filling both the him and us circle for a while now... I don't know if that is helpful but I found it a really helpful visual aid to retrack the conversation and help him rephrase.

OK, to clarify a bit more.

I think you had an average jo bloggs kind of cheater to deal with.

I dont think Tom does.

So for me the the things you (and others) mention he should be doing don't really matter because I doubt he's capable of them.

My bottom line in Toms situation is this

• do you want to spend the rest of your life with a husband who has such stunted or shallow emotions that he cant do what he should be doing unless someone else is telling him what he has to do.

For me this is what its all about. That for the rest of your life you will be with a man who cant get it, and who will always have to be the one being understood, put first, considered etc, while you slowly become invisible to the extent if you look in the mirror you wont see yourself. *

I tried approaching my situation from the general way of doing things when an affair happens but it was only when I realised that my situation wasn't a jo bloggs situation and I saw someone who helped me through it from my reality that I was able to recover.

Does this make my previous post any clearer?

You're all going to say I'm a mug, but the arrogance and self importance wasn't there when I first met him

Your friends and family who have known him all along - would/do they say the same?

Sorry we cross posted

I think its my use of 'only' thats causing this confusion and to be honest I cant really see any other way of explaining what I mean, so I'll just leave it in the hope that you accept I wasn't saying anything negative - it was all about jo bloggs.

And your posts are similar to Mama's (and others) in that you both speak of what a person should be doing to get things back on track.

I think I need outside help myself. I am going to find a therapist for myself first and foremost. And then if he wants to go to the same person he can.

Everyone who knows him, including those who have known him the longest, have said this is utterly out of character for him. That the man I married is the "true" him rather than the more recent one.

Weebirdie I get what you are saying about the shallowness of his emotions. The lack of empathy, the lack of compassion. My needs always coming second.

I want to make it crystal clear - I am not about to take him back. I am not going to turn around next week and say "ok then let's give it a go". All I am doing is talking to him. I don't know whether I can ever come to understand let alone forgive what he has done, but first I need to know the truth. Warts and all, however much it hurts. Because if half of what he has done is still in the shadows I will always be left wondering.

I am doing my best to get my own life back on track - and to reclaim myself out of this whole episode. Regardless of the outcome in the months and years ahead I can't ever let go of "me" again.

I think you are doing amazingly well

I'd echo what was said about space. In reality he hasn't allowed you this, with this last week being him forcing you to listen to him (whether or not he is genuine).

Seeing your DD, hand overs have all meant that he has not really gone al any time at all without seeing you/ sensing how you were feeling. Neither has he had to face the harsh reality of living/coping alone with DD in his own flat. It is still worth proceeding with plans for him to be in your house less often in the meantime.

Finally, on reflection and reading back. It seems to me that you have always had a clear view/plan of what he needed to do/say in order for progress to be made. You have articulated it on the thread, and I expect to family and friends. It must have got back to him (probably very directly from his sister). He is now feeding it, more or less back to you. I'd be very cautious.

I'm really not Christina but thank you for the support. Inside I'm in pieces. Dd has spent the morning playing up and I haven't had enough sleep.

I'm going to put a Disney film on for her this afternoon and take a break myself.

I have just found out there has been a death in the family (distant - I never met him). 10 years older than both of us. It should be a wake up call that life is too short to waste not treating those you love with care and appreciation and respect.

MsPav - yes I do need more space.

Changing Minds - Changing Timings

Are we about 6 weeks since you found out Tomato?

6 weeks ago you wanted no communication whatsoever for 2 months. You wanted zero conversations, didn't want to talk to him at all.

Now, "I need to know the truth. Warts and all".

I also note "My initial deadline was 2 months but I have extended that to 2 months from him actually starting to work positively which I would class as now.".

Remember that he was always unable to "work positively" from the beginning because he was not able to talk to you about these depths. You asked that he did not try to talk to you about things.

My point is that what you want from him is changing and you need to take care to be true to yourself, rather than reacting to him. You are also changing his goalposts - give you space and don't try to talk. Then, tell me the truth warts and all.

As well as being clear with what you want for yourself. Also be clear with what you want from him. Or no one will benefit.

It's not that you are extending the deadline. It's just that you have now passed the no communication time and are into the talking time. I would suggest no deadlines, just do things when you are ready.

Of course you're in pieces, it's entirely understandable. You thought you knew roughly what you were dealing with: a cheating husband who was doing none of the necessary things to salvage the relationship.

Now he's turned that on its head by being more honest than he's ever managed thus far, and you're pulled in lots of different directions at once. Why now? is it sincere? if it is sincere can he follow through with his actions? will he start on the process and then give up? will he ever be able to go back to the person he was? who is he anyway? will you ever be able to trust him? will he ever be able to respect you and consider your needs? etc...

You don't have to make any decisions now and you can't. Only time will tell whether he's authentic and whether he has the tenacity to see the process through. So it's a question of going through it and seeing where you end up.

Despite the confusion you feel now, you may find that you end up in a place where you feel sure about your next step, whether that means giving him a chance to rebuild, or being certain that you cannot.

You are doing well, it's perfectly normal to feel like shit, your whole world has shifted

I think you are doing the right thing in finding a therapist, it will help clear your mind and perhaps give you some of the answers you are looking for

Have you got anymore time planned at your parents? You always seem to return from there with more energy and positivity

I think I personally would need to know the truth warts and all. It would eat away at me not knowing that I had the full, brutal truth. For others, the full brutal truth would be the thing that ate away at them. If you are sure you want it, then he has said he doesn't think you'll like him after he gives it to you. It's not going to be nice. It's clear that you are going to have to have significant time away from him afterwards, whilst you make sense of how you feel about everything - love, life, the universe… everything.

You could take the space you need then. No deadline. Take all the time you need, take care of yourself, make yourself happy, until you decide you are ready for a relationship with anyone. If, by then, you decide that he's not someone you want to be in a relationship with, I hope he's still managed to work out what went wrong, find his way back to who he once was and worked out how he can prevent himself from going so astray again, for the sake of his relationship with DD. He needs to do this for himself and for her, I think, not to save the relationship with you, because you may or may not want to be with him no matter what he does now.

Laurie

Excellent post

I never actually got to know the nitty gritty and to be honest what more is there to know than your husband has has sex with another woman. We've all had sex, we all know whats involved, and I didn't need him to tell me what they'd been doing because we'd probably done it as well.

What was important for me though was being able to find out enough to claim my life back because it was horrible knowing that something had been going on in my life and I wasn't part of it. I felt as if my life had been hi-jacked and it had belonged to someone else.

I never bothered asking a lot of questions because there were other ways for me to find things out and I knew thats the only way I'd get the truth. My husband wasn't brave enough to face up to it - he was actually quite a coward. He just believed in say nothing apart from I love you so much, then try to throw money at it so everything will be ok! It was obviously how he remedied things with the OW.

Once I had put together my timeline I was able to tie it up with our family life and the realisations horrified me. For eg things me and my children had faced with my youngest son where he ended up in hospital due to psychotic episodes, and one of us always ended up needing treatment as well for injuries we received whilst trying to stop him from hurting himself. Grandchildren being born and his phone being off so we couldn't tell him. That really hurt my children and not just because mine is never off and they can always get me no matter where they are in the world, and no matter the time. They always say nothing will ever happen to any of us because mama would raise the alarm within hours. And there we were with new grandchildren and no means to tell grandad because his phone was off. And to be frank when our last grandchild was born - we actually forgot to tell him for about 18 hours. He just wasn't part of it.

Anyway enough of that for now. I just wanted Tom to know I understood her needing to know everything but to once again say - there are somethings you will never forget.

Weebirdie that sounds so horrific with your youngest and not being able to get in touch with him for such key moments.

It's not the sex stuff I want to find out about but when and where he saw her, and how much he spent. It's the times they were on and the times they were off - the hot/cold nature of how he has been fits that pattern I think. I want to make sense of the odd things that have happened over the months.

Its the thought and justification that he could even consider leaving dd. She is the most precious thing in the world and I couldn't even dream for a second of doing anything which may harm her. And she is the reason why I'm even entertaining talking to him and I haven't run off into the sunset.

This is the stuff which has been driving me bonkers.

Just to add - I'm desperate to know when it finally finished and why he wouldn't show me his phone a couple of weeks ago.