I think I need to call off my wedding, and I'm absolutely petrified

[Runawaybride1]

I've realy hesitated to post this over the past few days but I need to get this down. Understandable name change. I've been engaged since the beginning of the year and we're due to be married in early September. We've only lived together since last summer and I have 2 dc, 7 & 9.

Before we moved in, dp lived in a hovel. I'm talking something you'd see on TV, it was that bad. I didn't know for a very long time, since with the dc it was easier for him to come to mine. When I found out I was appalled. I was upset for him, and absolutely raging tbh that he'd told me he'd tidied up and there were piles and piles of things so that the floor couldn't be seen, nowhere clean to sit down, and filth about two inches thick in every surface of the kitchen, as well as cupboards full of plates just left with food on to go mouldy. I was shocked, our friends had told me it was bad but I had no idea how bad. I asked him to clean it up, went back a few weeks later and nothing had changed. I spent a whole day scrubbing the kitchen and it still wasn't clean. It became a massive issue for me, even though it wasn't my house. He'd lived there by himself for close to a decade and even his parents didn't know how he was living. I bought him curtains for his bare windows, new crockery for his kitchen, but the curtains were never hung, and the crockery never used.

The time came last summer when my landlord was selling up so I had to move, and we agreed to move in together. This, I see now, was my big mistake. We'd been together two years at that point, and I thought we were ready to move in. The problem was, he still wouldn't see a problem with his flat. He left it right til the last day and brought literally everything with him, and left it in our new garage. He's insisted he'll sell it, it's mostly comics and computer games (he's nearly 40 btw...) Nearly a year later it's still here, and this stuff is beginning to migrate into the house.

We've been to lots of boot sales recently to pick up things for the wedding, and he'll buy stacks of games at each one saying they're for eBay. But they never get listed. I don't understand, truly, why he'd buy more stuff when our garage is rammed with things that need selling.

Last night it came to a horrible head, I asked if we could clear a shelf in the dining room which was loaded with games he'd just left. I started to help and he basically told me to get lost and he'd do it. He ended up throwing a glass award he got from work about 15 years ago into the bin with such force it smashed. I went upstairs, and goodness knows where he went but he went off in the car for a few hours. I went to bed and haven't heard a word since. I was up in the morning with the dc and he didn't say a word before work.

I get that hoarding is a real problem. He has lots of issues from his parents splitting up when he was about 13, and I think that's when his started. Somehow, this stuff makes him feel safe. But I am fed up of playing the nagging wife. We've both been selling on eBay to raise money for the wedding, but so far I've paid for absolutely everything, the church at £700 and everything for the reception so far too. I'm a sahm so this is starting to grate. I'm selling everything I don't use and he isn't stumping up anything. I'm starting to get resentful. I had a truly horrible night last night where I suddenly realised I don't want to do this anymore. I won't tiptoe around this issue, but nor will it ever be solved because I don't actually think he wants to change. He's totally blind to having a tidy house, but to me it's important. He never proved to me before we moved in together that he was capable of living normally, for want of a better word. I was about to end all this by saying ...'but I do love him' but now I'm here I'm not actually sure it's true :(

Sounds like you have some hope now for the future. Please don't send the wedding invitations out though, there is no need at all to get married if you are working through problems.

If it's meant to be, you can have a wonderful wedding in the future, with your problems behind you.

It seems naive to think that he is cured due to one row and a chat with his mum.

Op, when you first posted I did a double take, as I've been experiencing a very similar situation to you.

My partner of several years, who doesn't live with me is a hoarder, but has been wanting me to move in with him this summer. Over the past few months we've been, in anticipation of that move - with a lot of pushing from me - emptying a room which was stacked floor to ceiling with items that were no earthly good, but they 'might just come in useful one day'!

Since we agreed for me to move in I've steadily felt more and more stressed and now have physical symptoms of this showing (vomiting, heartburn, weightloss, feeling tearful, etc).

It all came to a head when I just couldn't bear to sleep in his room any more. It was a squat. Chaotic, unbearable....and I lost it! I removed every piece of crap from that room and threw it away. I wanted him to see what it's like to have calmness and space, and how much easier it is to cope.

He agreed with what I did, but then has carried on with his way of life in the rest of the house. Can barely eat at the dining table for crap. Can barely sit down for crap. Can only walk through a narrow pathway in the kitchen because of crap. But as long as he has HIS chair to sit in, HIS bed to sleep in, has his own bubble to exist in, he can function.

Since the bedroom clearout, more rubbish has begun to appear elsewhere, but to him it could be useful - there is no reasoning.

I'm so very tired of it all.

So, I have told him I will not look at it, talk about it, have anything at all to do with this hoard of crap. Because it's his crap. He can deal with it - or not, it's his choice.

I won't be going to visit or stay there whilst ever any of it remains, I refuse to put myself through it again.. I certainly won't be moving in any time soon. Even if he got rid of it all tomorrow, it will take years before I would consider moving in with him now, as I don't want to spend my life policing everything he brings into the house.

Since I made this decision, the heartburn, has receded, I've stopped vomiting everytime I try to eat, and feel much calmer.

I'm sad, because he is a lovely kind man, but I want to live with him, not his crap!

Please OP, don't move in with him, or marry him.

He's putting his own needs first, and so you need to do the same for you and your children.

Oh dear. This is a serious problem. Hoarders are usually articulate, intelligent, proffesional people who outwardly seem in perfect control of theirs lives. It is more common than people would think. I roughly deal with one case a year.

Its thought the hoarding is triggered by some stress or emotional trauma and causes an abnormal attachment to objects or animals The object can be anything from collections and expensive consumer items to recycling or rubbish. In some cases even weird things like tumble drier fluff or bodily fluids need to be retained. There is an increasing understanding of hoarding or Diogenes syndrome as a mental health issue, however your partner can only get help if he asks for it.

I would cancel the wedding and see if you can encourage him to get help. Only you can decide if you are strong enough to support him in the long run without compromising the heath and welfare of your self and your child. Good luck

I have been on the backlash of it. Nearly 10 years ago I had a friendship end due to 'no good deed goes unpunished'. We were at a friends house for New Year and we thought we would help them tidy up before the party. It was a shared house and it really needed it. All the surfaces were covered but none of the storage was used. So we put everthing in order into the cupboards and drawers and rounded up anything that could possibly be paperwork into its own specific drawer. On NYD we got kicked out without warning. When I got into contact shortly after there was no apology more a load of ranting about how we had ruined her life and other things we could not have been responsible.

I understand now that what we had done was one degree short of sexual assault to a hoarder. The household had an unhealthy dynamic in that they all had some degree of health issues including hoarding tendencies. We had disturbed their hoard which was unforgivable.
In hindsight I sort of see that friendship had run its course but I'm not sure whether you could live with your DP without being able to relax and not walk on eggshells everytime you do a clearout or a trip to the tip.

OP

You say you've made it seem worse than it is.

Before we moved in, dp lived in a hovel. I'm talking something you'd see on TV, it was that bad.

and

I asked if we could clear a shelf

A shelf mind. Just a shelf.

... in the dining room which was loaded with games he'd just left. I started to help and he basically told me to get lost and he'd do it. He ended up throwing a glass award he got from work about 15 years ago into the bin with such force it smashed. I went upstairs, and goodness knows where he went but he went off in the car for a few hours. I went to bed and haven't heard a word since.

Living in squalor for a not insignificant length of time, reaching boiling point to the point of a violent physical reaction, pretty fast, when pressured to clear a small area in a communal living space. Then withdrawal. Punitive, or necessary to simmer down to safe levels of anger? Who knows.

How much worse does it need to be?

Imagine having to tell that story to a social worker in child protection who is checking your children are safe and well.

I'm serious.

Imagining a retelling in that context is a very good reduce my filters, retract my emotional lens, induce reliable reality check strategy. If the very idea of an honest retelling without whitewashing/selective omissions makes toes curl, it's time to de-clog filters.

I know I'm going to get lots of replies saying his behaviour is ingrained.

The downside of support groups, the reason why I left them, is that it forces you to watch people caught in a dance. Where they repeat the same steps over and over. While singing how they have learned new moves, that ... this time will work.

It's not his behaviour being ingrained that worries me. More a concern that your reactions to it might become so too. There is nothing original about your version of this. I don't see the "but this is DIFFERENT !" that you do. Because it is all very familiar territory.

People won't say it is ingrained, and your reactions to it pretty standard to make you feel bad. This is all new, unchartered waters for you, and the current hurl/sell feels like real progress. But the people who point to just how unoriginal the script being written for you is, for them it is just "same old, same old, BTDT, got the T-shirt . A t-shirt that got buried somewhere in the replacement piles of stuff. Replacement piles that were bought with the money (and then some) from a past "ok I'll prove it has value and I am not a lost cause and I can CHANGE !" sell off.

I am not judging you. I have no right to. I understand you. Because in many ways, despite the different kind of relationship, I was you. Besides, I left my little sister in the hoard. We are both in our 40s and I haven't even begun to make a start on forgiving myself for that. I don't get to judge you. I'm far far too busy judging me.

What I can offer you in place of judgment is a litmus test. To help you predict if you will have to spend your entire relationship exerting constant pressure and threats in order to manage continuance of improvements and avoidance of back sliding. (either successfully, or not so much).

Stop the pressure. Act like the storm has passed. Watch where the money from sold off bits goes when there's no prompting, or arm twisting. Without comment. Just observe.

See if he keeps up the clear out off his own back. If this is not a real cause for concern, if it was a relatively, easily fixable "bad habits" sort of thing, that couldn't possibly risk negative ramifications for your children, he'll keep going. Maybe slower than you'd like, but he'll keep going. Because it caused you real pain and drove in a wedge between the pair of you. And the siren song of the hoard won't be able to compete with the thought of causing you pain, or your children emotional harm.

He'll see the improvements as improvements rather than gaping holes of loss. He'll see any ebay monies as minor claw back, not vindication and a green light to buy more. He'll want to add to the improvements, for the kids' sake, for your sake, for his sake. Because, with space, lightness, extra cash... where's the downside ? He'll overcome his blip that became a bit of a habit linked to common or garden laziness. He will come to you for support, help shifting stuff, encouragement and motivation if and when he needs it or wants it during wobbly moments. And you can freely give it.

On the other hand ... if the core issue is a real cause for concern, a not so fixable thing and in fact it could have negative ramifications for your children.. with your foot off the accelerator his forward motion will slow to halt. And backsliding will begin. You'll quite possibly learn to hate the git that bought from him off ebay. Because the small claw back from all the money/time investment will become his magic feather of vindication.

If that happens the question to ask yourself is not, what should I do to maintain his momentum and shunt him off a backsliding trajectory.

The question to ask yourself is ..... do I have the energy to bring up my children to healthy adulthood (with the sort of time/effort/involvement that requires) AND constantly police his relationship with inanimate objects ?

GeekLove, I really like your "one degree short of sexual assault" comparison; this is very apt imagery describing a hoarder's feelings of unreasonable violation and rage at its most extreme. That's when the "icy control" another poster described rears its ugly head. And it can be so shocking and ugly.
StEdmunds, you've described well the never-ending physical and emotional toll of dealing with even a kindly, "agreeable" hoarder who will allow some amount of help from a loved one. The hoarding just moves into other spaces, like water seeking its own level. "Spending my life policing everything he brings into the house" -- I'm glad you have decided before it is too late that you won't/can't do that!

OP, we just want to let you know from our own experiences what you and your family may be facing in the future. This is not a knee-jerk "You are being abused! LTB" issue. Often there will be a "backlash" down the road if and when the hoarder has seemed to be making progress by allowing cleaning up or selling/donating items. Feelings of loss of control and erroneously feeling that he/she was forced into getting rid his precious stuff can create a sudden increased desire to purchase/drag in even more and some real digging in of the heels. Recriminations and hysterical outbursts over a remembered item or not being able to find an item can burst into everyday life out of nowhere. You've got time to see how your partner reacts in the longer run to these changes as long as you don't marry any time in the near future.

Tuono, I was posting before I had read your elegant post above addressed to OP. Your advice is as accurate/spot on as is humanly possible.

OP, read and reread Tuono's post. We are all only posting out of true concern for you -- and especially for your DC.

Sorry to be cynical OP, but I think you've panicked him a bit (threatening to call off the wedding), so now he's telling you what you want to hear and doing what you want him to do.

What concerns me is your feelings of dread (the subconscious is far wiser than the conscious mind), and the filth and squalor he lived in when you met and continued to live in until he moved in with you. If it was merely as a consequence of a relationship turned sour and him being dumped then its reasonable to expect him to get his act together and clean up once you and him got together - yet that didn't happen.

I know you want this to work and that you've got a lot invested in this relationship already, so its understandable that you're trying to meet him halfway, but leopards don't change their spots. He's on the offensive to 'win' you back at the moment, because I'm guessing you were pretty firm and determined when you spoke to him yesterday after being pumped up by everything that was said in response to your OP, but now he's back on the front foot and sensing you're wavering. I think you need to step back a bit and think with your head, not with your romantic heart that is desperate for this relationship to work out. Calling off a wedding is hard to do - all that money spent, all those expectant guests, all the questions you'll have to answer - but a wedding is one day. A marriage is for the rest of your life, so don't enter into it unless you are 100% sure.

His hovel was so bad it could have been on TV and now everything is going to be fixed by the weekend?

Come on, love.

I'm not judging. I'm really not. But you're grasping at these straws he's flinging. Be 100% honest with yourself. Please.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00I0C46BO/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/277-5661938-0114144?ie=UTF8&redirectFromSS=1&pc_redir=T1&noEncodingTag=1&fp=1

I am a reformed mid weight hoarder. Probably much like your DP is presently. It took me 20 hours a week for 5 months to go through everything with a fine tooth comb. It was this book www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00I0C46BO/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/277-5661938-0114144?ie=UTF8&redirectFromSS=1&pc_redir=T1&noEncodingTag=1&fp=1 that held my hand and got me through the whole process successfully. The book is actually about decluttering and not cleaning at all. I could never have been so strict and got rid of most of my stuff without it. The change is liberating. All that stuff was such a noose round my neck. Buy the book OP

Hello Runaway

You are unhappy & you are not even married yet - to me that says a lot

I would suggest postpone the wedding

I would have a chat about sharing costs for the wedding & living together as a family in the future
Could you live with someone who spends £100 a week on comics when you are struggling to pay the bills ?
It is similar to could you live with someone who; drinks, gambles, drugs etc

Is he willing to sacrifice selling alot/all of his "stuff" to live with you & your children as a family ? If he wants to keep all his stuff you & your children are not a top priority for him

Looking from the outside, it doesnt matter what happened in the past to trigger the hoarding. Everyone has a history, everyone goes through the good times & the bad times

Only you can decide if you would be able to live with this man & his hoard

Good luck

What about his personal hygiene?? I'm really not sure I could ever contemplate marrying someone who was happy living like this....in fact I KNOW I couldn't!

My dad is exactly like this. He lives in absolute filth and it is appalling to see. My mum divorced him when I was a child and his second wife divorced him as well, because you cannot change a hoarder. My eldest sister has spent the last few years doing a stellar job of driving herself bonkers, trying to change "help" him.

Hoarders are happy to live like this and don't see a problem with it, and they will never see a problem with it. Which means they will never change. Sorry to sound defeatist but I've lived it and we've tried everything. Therapy and counselling and clearing it out for him and cleaning the place for him and setting up beautiful organisation systems for him has not worked.

If I were you, I'd RUN LIKE THE FUCKING WIND.

I just think that when you are at the stage where you post on an internet forum about feeling 'dread' as you walk down the aisle and not really being sure that you love him, then you should not turn around the next day and sweep it all under the carpet. You owe it to your children to be a LOT more sure before you marry someone.

Tuono, beautifully written posts. I deal with many many hoarders but the only difference is I have only worked with one person who had a child still at home. To be honest the mother isn't really a hoarder but doesn't have a clue where to start, she has mental health issues and doesn't know whether she should keep something or throw it out. The daughter however is only nine and can't throw anything away, already the start of being a hoarder. I wouldn't if I was in your shoes move in. You can get in a professional organiser, it's not cheap and it's not a guarantee it will stay organised.

This Man is unwell blah blah but when there are young vulnerable children involved you have to put their needs first way way before his need for help iykwim - in fairness you need to get out and let him deal with it himself not hand hold for x amount of yrs while he promises / gets angry / throws things - separate now before your poor children are affected or at least move out and your kids out of sharing a home with him - what a nightmare he is deluded in thinking this behaviour Is ok - your absolute priority is the mental health and well being of your children not this man baby as that's how he is acting - please break free from this destructive situation you are in - no good will come of you staying

Yes, run. He needs help.

You have a responsibility to your children. And to yourself.

You do not have a responsibility to this man. And yet you are putting him at the top of your priority list.

Why?

Why don't you think you deserve better than this?

I find this mind-boggling. I can't understand your massive back track. Being single has got to be so immeasurably better than being shackled to this.

You and your children are light years away more important than this man.

Please do not send out the wedding invitations.

And quite honestly, I think it is unforgivable that people have come on here and made the OP feel guilty for not sticking this out, supporting him, and trying to make it work. The 'would you leave him if it was any other mental health issue?', 'if he had cancer?' comments....

The OP is under no obligation to this man. She has not promised to stick by him in sickness and in health, and does not have joint children to consider. In fact, she has children of her own who would benefit in absolutely no conceivable way from her staying with him. Who certainly would be far better off with him out of the picture.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting that actually - I don't have what it takes to be somebody else's crutch. My children are the most important people in my life. I am an important person in my own right, and I don't have to nurse another adult through a life-time problem until they get better. I do not have to do that.

I find the SIO (stick it out) brigade far more dangerous and insidious than the LTB types could ever possibly hope to be.

Again - the OP has pledged no life-time commitment to this man. She has no children with him. If she had, then of course it might be beneficial to talk and try to support a partner before calling it quits. In this case, no.

I think you have majorly backtracked on the vague promise that he will do a boot sale, list some items on eBay and start having a tidy up.

It won't touch the surface.

This is something you/he will be battling with for the rest of your lives.

OP have you posted about this before? several times?

I have some success stories for you OP

www.everydayhealth.com/news/from-collecting-hoarding-digging-out-after-decade/
Digging Out after a Decade

professional-organizer.com/WordPress/2011/10/10/a-hoarders-success-story-2/
Professional Organiser pleased with outcome

www.10tv.com/content/stories/2010/11/04/story-columbus-hoarding-recovery-6pm.html
Jodi Miller's emotional attachment to items was not an extreme case.

www.squalorsurvivors.com/stories/pigpen.shtml
The post that spawned Stepping Out of Squalor. One of the first stories I ever read.

You'll find more positive outcomes here www.squalorsurvivors.com/index.shtml and here takeonestepatatime.proboards.com

I have to name change. And stop posting. Because my 14 year old does not benefit from a somewhat destabilised mum. I refuse to allow this to colour the young life of another generation. The urge to run around like a headless chicken and turn the house into something utterly spartan is getting hard to batter down. But I have to. Because I can't do what my mother did, let her urges and impulses overwhelm her maternal responsibilities in terms making the kids' needs her absolute priority. I just.. I can't post here AND do what I need to do.

So, I have found you some un-cherry picked success stories. If you google hoarder/squalor success stories you can see for yourself that these are not exceptional descriptions.

It's worth paying attention to the details behind the title.

How long it took.

How very two steps forward, one step back it was.

How a key factor tends to be that the person with the problem freely chose to change and sought solutions for themselves, as opposed to doing it as a reaction to somebody else's need for them to change.

How it's not uncommon to require costly professional help, or an invasion of private space and private shame from the greater community. Or being held up for ridicule and gawking on TV screens and articles in exchange for help.

I'd like you to consider that perhaps a turn around in this context this won't be as plain sailing as maybe you hope. That there is a strong possibility that your best case scenario can be predicted via these stories, which provide a more accurate picture of to the road to success that maybe you imagine.

And then think very hard.

Choosing to potentially end up living in something similar to the above raging successes (and in the world of hoarding and squalor, these are a good representation of what raging success stories look like) for yourself is one thing.

But is it really something you want to risk for your children ?

If you bet wrong, it won't be you paying the greater price. I am not saying this to hurt you, belittle you, shame you. I am saying it because you sound like a lovely, caring, sensitive person. I don't get the impression you could shake off the negative ramifications of walking your children into this with your eyes wide shut, as easily as a Frontlined dog shakes off fleas. You sound like somebody who will beat themselves up long term if you end up hauling your kids into a scenario that has considerable implications for their welfare and emotional development.

I don't want you and your littles on our team. Please don't click off without reading the links. can you leave at least a chink of possibility that the people who have stripped naked and bared their shame ...saw something in your post that rang an alarm bell of fairly significant proportions? The view here is not pretty. The scars can be deep. Tiny humans can become cannon fodder in the battle against impulses, urges and complicated adult issues. An awful lot of former Hoard Hostages never recover fully. That's why we are having to push ourselves over a big old hump to post.

To my fellow (former) Hoard Hostages. I know what posting about this in public can cost. I salute you. Your guts, your resilience, your heartfelt words .... when hiding a thread and pretending you didn't see it is by far the less painful option. You are stronger and braver than me. It is entirely possible that nothing said will make so much as a scratch on the surface. But I am glad you posted anyway. As hard as it is, it's no bad thing when we emerge from the shadows and underline that this is not a benign "no harm, no foul" issue.