I think I need to call off my wedding, and I'm absolutely petrified

[Runawaybride1]

I've realy hesitated to post this over the past few days but I need to get this down. Understandable name change. I've been engaged since the beginning of the year and we're due to be married in early September. We've only lived together since last summer and I have 2 dc, 7 & 9.

Before we moved in, dp lived in a hovel. I'm talking something you'd see on TV, it was that bad. I didn't know for a very long time, since with the dc it was easier for him to come to mine. When I found out I was appalled. I was upset for him, and absolutely raging tbh that he'd told me he'd tidied up and there were piles and piles of things so that the floor couldn't be seen, nowhere clean to sit down, and filth about two inches thick in every surface of the kitchen, as well as cupboards full of plates just left with food on to go mouldy. I was shocked, our friends had told me it was bad but I had no idea how bad. I asked him to clean it up, went back a few weeks later and nothing had changed. I spent a whole day scrubbing the kitchen and it still wasn't clean. It became a massive issue for me, even though it wasn't my house. He'd lived there by himself for close to a decade and even his parents didn't know how he was living. I bought him curtains for his bare windows, new crockery for his kitchen, but the curtains were never hung, and the crockery never used.

The time came last summer when my landlord was selling up so I had to move, and we agreed to move in together. This, I see now, was my big mistake. We'd been together two years at that point, and I thought we were ready to move in. The problem was, he still wouldn't see a problem with his flat. He left it right til the last day and brought literally everything with him, and left it in our new garage. He's insisted he'll sell it, it's mostly comics and computer games (he's nearly 40 btw...) Nearly a year later it's still here, and this stuff is beginning to migrate into the house.

We've been to lots of boot sales recently to pick up things for the wedding, and he'll buy stacks of games at each one saying they're for eBay. But they never get listed. I don't understand, truly, why he'd buy more stuff when our garage is rammed with things that need selling.

Last night it came to a horrible head, I asked if we could clear a shelf in the dining room which was loaded with games he'd just left. I started to help and he basically told me to get lost and he'd do it. He ended up throwing a glass award he got from work about 15 years ago into the bin with such force it smashed. I went upstairs, and goodness knows where he went but he went off in the car for a few hours. I went to bed and haven't heard a word since. I was up in the morning with the dc and he didn't say a word before work.

I get that hoarding is a real problem. He has lots of issues from his parents splitting up when he was about 13, and I think that's when his started. Somehow, this stuff makes him feel safe. But I am fed up of playing the nagging wife. We've both been selling on eBay to raise money for the wedding, but so far I've paid for absolutely everything, the church at £700 and everything for the reception so far too. I'm a sahm so this is starting to grate. I'm selling everything I don't use and he isn't stumping up anything. I'm starting to get resentful. I had a truly horrible night last night where I suddenly realised I don't want to do this anymore. I won't tiptoe around this issue, but nor will it ever be solved because I don't actually think he wants to change. He's totally blind to having a tidy house, but to me it's important. He never proved to me before we moved in together that he was capable of living normally, for want of a better word. I was about to end all this by saying ...'but I do love him' but now I'm here I'm not actually sure it's true :(

Don't marry him. All the very real and worrying issues aside, if you're approaching your wedding and aren't really excited and looking forward to being his wife, then it's not right.

Tuono

Tuono - child of hoarders here too. Yes to the guilt and responsibility you end up feeling.
Very brave post. Xxxx

I created an account just to respond to OP and wrote a too-lengthy post, based on personal experience, which I lost (might be the best thing) so here it goes again. In a nutshell: I have a hoarder sister, who lived with our lovely mother, and a husband with hoarder tendencies. Hoarders have a very different way of looking at boundaries, space, control, privacy, AND money. The problem is not, as you know, a matter of merely an inability to organize and clean. A hoarder's strange relationship to the physical world is only a symptom of a very serious disorder or illness, which is ingrained and very difficult, if not impossible, to cure in the best of circumstances.

Hoarders want to and eventually will try to take over every available space/surface. They also want to "see" their stuff. And often anything they've touched is their "stuff." Putting their stuff away in an appropriate place that's accessible and sensible is tantamount to hiding it or destroying it. Even if you do manage to do this, they will often pull stuff out and look at it and go through it while pretending to further organize it. You'll have a constant battle over the most basic daily activities. No matter where a hoarder puts down or places an item, he/she expects it to stay there. And a hoarder often has a strange attitude toward the space, possessions, and activities of other family members. Hoarders don't understand the concept of sharing.

Most hoarders get a true thrill from purchasing quantities of items or dragging in a plethora of "found" items. That's why the battle never ends. (They may also become quite secretive and dissembling or pretend confusion regarding money and budgets, but that's too long to go into.) In any event, the hoarder seems to feel that a nicely decorated living and dining room where everyone is comfortable and can entertain family, friends, and guests is a waste of space, which he seems to secretly resent because he feels it's not "his." Note: Although hoarders seem to be extremely needy and view themselves as deprived and victimized, most have not experienced any actual, unusual deprivation.

After a period of time of doing everything you can to help and understand -- all you'll be able to see is his selfishness and the chaos he causes.
I don't have any practical advice about your relationship and living situation, but please do not, DO NOT MARRY HIM!

Op I have been ill and so it has just taken me 3 full days on the bank holiday to clear toys from one room and declutter my bedroom. Then previously there was another separate cupboard which also took a full weekend to clear.

I was too ill to clean properly and my cleaner obviously didn't want to throw anything away and my dh was always busy working. So I had a mixture of maternity clothes. Fat clothes and thin clothes - because my weight fluctuated.

I realise that the stuff had built up over two years but in reality the bulk of it was from a seven month period where I was very very I'll.

I can not tell you the total utter relief it is to now have a lovely room.

I can not tell you just how different and freeing it is without the clutter.

My kids have bit missed the toys. I must have filled 30 garbage sacks of toys and clothes from one room.

Hoarding is a real issue.

Mine sneaked up on me but I will never live like that again.

I was so stressed by it all - I didn't fully realise. I was concentrating on getting better but I now realise I should have somehow paid for someone to help with the room.

You have to completely call off the wedding.

Then you can see if he will change.

I also can not tell you the difference already to my relationship with the kids and my dh. Being able to not worry about all the shit stuff. I just ended up with too much stuff - plain and simple!

The chaos around me reflected my inner turmoil and I believe contributed to my illness in a mental way. I will never ever have that chaos again my life and will look to nip any stuff in the bud.

Also what really did it for me was staying in a cool clean clutter free apartment and that spurred me on to change my life. I had to wait until I got better but I would never live with clutter again.

Touno and laladeepsouth - your post resonates. My dad hoarded in his garage only. We had to get a skip - or my brother did after he died.

The shame is also what motivated me. My poor kids I felt like if it continued then we would not be able to have people over for play dates.

My illness was really bad over the last seven months - so that and my messy room skippered play dates and friends visiting - as I did feel shame.

Now with a clear room I actually was able to lie there read my kids stories and read a book myself. I truly can not believe the toll that accumulated stuff took on my relationships and feel very lucky to have sorted it and escaped further ramifications.

AssassinsGuild and Tuono, your posts really touched me. I can hardly imagine the utter misery of being a child with a hoarder as a parent. I really wish both of you the best. Even after a number of years, I still haven't come to a full emotional resolution re the added misery of having to contend with my hoarder sister during and after my DM's final illness and death. A lifetime of it sounds unendurable. Again, thanks for sharing -- hoarding is not a benign disorder.

Snapple, you too! Glad you've been able to overcome and hoping you continue to feel well!

MIL is a hoarder and can not stop herself - she will spend every penny she has on second hand curtains, knicknacks etc. Her behaviour has really affected her three now adult children. Can you go back to living separately? How did you manage before you started living together?

The main point I can see is that you can't afford to stay in your current home. Would you be entitled to housing benefit or is there a cheaper alternative nearby?

I can hardly imagine the utter misery of being a child with a hoarder as a parent

I'm one of the lucky ones.

The far bigger wedge of my childhood was one of "slightly pack rat" + "not the best housekeeper in the universe". Normal. If a little over involved in ... stuff. But she was a lovely, lovely mum. Then a trauma broke her. That's when it tipped over into hoarding, and as a fairly typical side effect, squalor.

When I inherited hoard 1.0, (which had been transported lock, stock and mouldy barrel to my home), DH saw me start to churn it as I descended into the straight jacket of guilt and fear based veneration of the heap. He hauled me out. He helped me chuck to start me off, then stood back when the anger took over and I pummelled the mountain of stuff. I vanquished it. Took me an entire summer in 40 degrees heat with humidity in the 90s and five kilos of wieght I could not really afford to lose. But I won. I slayed the dragon. Soggy dragon. Becuase I cried all over it more times than I can count.

Just one blue teapot remains ten years on. I keep my money in it. On purpose. Becuase it signifies I know where my money is. It underlines what I spend my money on, I invest in my family's needs and pay my bills. It acts as a rebuttal to years of silencing and character assasination via "Tuono throws away MONEY!" (which quickly grew into a "one step away from serial killer" level of accusation) becuase I once sneakily chucked an armful of used envelopes and after she dragged it all out the bin she found two unfranked 2p stamps and some coppers mixed up in it.

That makes me lucky. I know people who inherited the hoard who are still churning it 10 years later. It's not the stuff that exerts power over them. It is the emotional strightjacket they were relentlessly forced into. A strightjacket that taught them they must sacrifice themselves, their needs, their happiness to the hoard. Mostly out of fear of the ramifications of "upsetting" the hoarder.

IME experience hoarders can be incredibly finely attuned to their own upset. Yet utterly impervious to anybody else's. No matter how many times they see somebody they claim to love sobbing, beaten, exhusted in the grubby heap they are obliged to live in and with.

And yes. Most of them are ill. But as somebody said above, hoarding is not benign. It is not automatically "gentle, loving, helpless, ill person + mountain of stuff." It's hard to feed your hoard's needs unless you are ready and willing to become extremely controlling (one way or another) of the people who share your space. There is often an imposition of a steely will under the tears, and the displayed helplessness.

Requiring people to live in squalor, disorder, stink and discomfort is not an easy task. You need tools to achieve it. You can need an almost icy self absorption, or over heated temper to pick up those tools and batter your family into hoard submission, regularly and often. I am grateful I have my "real" childhood to fall back on. The pre hoard years. I know what normal is, or was. I know what parental love is supposed to feel like. I know where children are supposed be in the pecking order of humans v stuff.

I'm lucky.

Tuono can I just say that not only were your pieces very well written, they were also very moving - a real insight into how a hoarder thinks and behaves twowards their loved ones.

Thank you so much for posting. I know it will have cost you but I truly believe you will have made a real impact on someone else's life for the better

Wow tuono you give such insight into hoarding that I never knew.

(are you a writer?)

Tuono your posts are amazingly well written and heart wrenching. Have you thought of writing about your experience in some way?

Tuono, I'm sorry for your experiences with hoarding. Thanks for explaining. I wondered if hoarders were quite controlling with their hoarding ways. Seems to me they are. As they couldn't care less how their hoarding affects others. Not least their hoard is more important than their children.

The hoard is the addiction like an alcoholic being possessive about their booze etc.

I didn't know hoarders resented space which is why they fill rooms from floor to ceiling with their hoard and that they didn't like anyone touching their hoard.

Sorting the hoard seems to be known as 'the churn'. I didn't know that. Why do hoarders let things get unsanitary ?

Thanks for a little insight into why they get sentimentally attached to the junk they hoard i.e. they've touched it. Thanks for also mentioning that a lot of hoarders don't have childhood or emotional trauma issues.

Tuono, your posts are amazingly powerful.
laladeepsouth, yours are too.

OP, you do need to be brave and make that push. Please don't marry this man.

I never had pre-hoard years, although I did have pre-realisation years. These I see as my 'happy' years, when I was too young to know any better.

I remember a class trip to Germany when I was 14. For absolutely no reason at all, I had convinced myself that my parents would take the week or so I was away and would clear and clean the house, transforming it into normality. I was almost delerious with excitement on the journey home. And utterly crushed when I got inside and saw nothing had changed. I think something died in me that day.

The shame never goes. To this day only 2 people know about this aspect of my childhood and that my father still hoards - DH and a close friend. I remain secretive and paranoid about my childhood. When my father finally dies, I think shame will prevent me from permitting anyone other that my close friend to help me clear the house.

I've realised it's left me with a strange relationship to 'stuff' and I often can't differentiate between truly valuable stuff and basically crap, so I sometimes find myself hanging onto the crap, but having chucked the good stuff. I've also inherited the strange relationship with money, which has really reared its head in the last few years during a period of ill health and extreme stress.

OP, I don't know if you are still here. If so, it must be difficult to see these posts. Hoarding is not benign. We're only posting out of grave concern for you and your DC.

Can I just say to Assassin lala and again tuomo your posts are wonderful albeit very sad and I hope they help with this difficult decision.

Ok I'm back. Thanks so much for all the messages, I've read them all and I hear what you're saying.

It turns out he went to his mums the night of the argument, to take some stuff he'd bought for his nieces and nephews when they come to visit. She knows how he was living as I really broke down at her when I saw his house the second time, she offered to help him and did end up taking several car loads of things to the dump for him. I think he had a bit of a talk with her, I'm planning to collar her tomorrow and see what was said.

From what he said last night, he was cross with himself and he realised what he's doing to our relationship. I feel, from the replies I've had, that perhaps I've made it seem worse than it is (and I promise I'm not backtracking). Stuff is being got rid of, but not at the pace I'd like. I'm the kind of person, if something needs doing, it gets done. Perhaps it's the years of being on my own with the do that's made me like that. There aren't piles of random old stuff, it's mostly comics that are properly packed away in plastic files, and lots of computer consoles and games. This started as his own personal collection, he's really into his retro gaming, but admits he no longer plays with any of it.

Completely unprompted, last night he told me that before bed gone to his mums the other night, he'd photographed the things on the shelf, as well as some from the garage and it's already listed on eBay. I've had a look this morning and am completely that in less than two days, the bids are up to more than £500. So yes, that stuff does have value.

I'm pleased he's showing willing. I think a lot of my doubts are coming from an absolute dread of this stuff never getting sold, and the less I'm willing to bring it up for fear of being nagging, the more I'm letting it get to me inside. He admits he needs nagging, but was sorry for hurting me. He's said he's doing a boot sale at the weekend, and I've stipulated that it's all being priced to sell, as anything left over is going straight to the charity shop. He's agreed. I'm going to try and find someone to look after the dc so I can come too and show that I'm also clearing stuff out.

I know I'm going to get lots of replies saying his behaviour is ingrained. I think he's a person who's felt alone for a very long time and has finally (I hope) realised that whatever it was that made him start behaving like this, he doesn't need to do it anymore. Of course I love him. The stress of organising the wedding is getting to me completely and amplifying everything. My original post yesterday was a truthful account of how I was feeling. I felt completely hopeless. I did say to him yesterday that I felt we should postphone the wedding. The invitations haven't actually gone out yet (more stress...) so it wouldn't be that hard to do, but he's pleaded to give him the weekend. I think it's good we've finally been more open with each other. Wether or not anything improves I've yet to see. But seeing his willing, that's a big, big improvement.

Well done for being big enough to let us know and not disappear. There are times things get on top if us and need to vent. Men are lazy and dont understand NOW. I tell DH if thats the case I will cook a week thursday and do the wash next week. As a wife there is only now - unfortunately.

Nice update. Call his bluff if he doesn't carry through by the weekend though.

He needs to address the squalor and filth he was living in. What is his explanation for this?

Assassin, I think he'd just stopped caring. He had his last long term relationship end with no explanation at all, she just packed up her stuff and left. I think he got himself into a funk he couldn't get out of. The comics and games I suppose took him away from the reality of his life. I often wonder, when I was at my lowest, how bad it would have become had I not had the dc to think about. As it was, anxiety, depression and a nice dose of anorexia made me turn all those horrible feelings inwards. I still kept up appearances to the outside, while I was in so so much pain on the inside. But again, there was an element of kidding myself about that as I wasn't coping at all. So I can understand that. I wasn't controlling my problems at all, they were controlling me. I don't see his issues as being that dissimilar, it was probably a very effective way of keeping people out, and he probably found that very difficult to give up when we got together. He persued me for what it's worth, so there must have been something in him that wanted to change. I think a lot of it is shame too. I remember all to well the shame I felt when I approached my gp for help. I don't think he'd even dream of admitting his problems to anyone.

I presume you are going to listen to his pleadings but its going to take more than a weekend, far more. He'll show willing because for now at least you mean business and he realises that but this man hoards and hoarding is not benign at all. Anyone can show willing in the short term. His hoarding started many years ago and certainly predates you.

I would also think his last relationship ended primarily due to his hoarding. You seem also to be projecting what happened to you onto him saying that you and he are not dissimilar.

His issues are far different to yours; you are two people who are basically incompatible with each other but cling to each other out of some innate need within yourselves. That is only where you are similar.

You cannot rescue and or save someone who does not want to be saved.
The wedding has to be called off.

I think he will break you ultimately; you and your children particularly if you marry.