Husband's affair: I have started!

[tomatoplantproject]

I have had my first thread deleted this morning, because I posted too much identifying information and disclosed far too much detail about my plans. However the support I have received so far has been amazing, and I have such a long way to go still.

The story so far: I discovered at the weekend my husband has been having an on/off affair for the last 6 months. He finished it before I discovered the evidence because he had decided to choose me over her.

I have been utterly devastated by this. In my anger I have taken the practical steps I need in order to help secure my long term future (I think).

My final practical step will be to get our home back for dd and me for a while. And then let the dust settle and figure out how to rebuild or recreate my life. With minimal collateral damage to dd.

Please keep holding my hand.

I really don't understand the "don't give him the letter in advance" camp. The letter is designed to calmly (without emotion) get certain points across, so that DH fully understands the situation (the hurt, betrayal etc and also the expectations and required actions, if there is any chance for it to be "fixed", for the want of a better word).

To read this letter for the first time in an alien environment, under pressure and be expected to make calm rational responses is practically impossible. Also unless you are a trained psychologist how would you be qualified to "gauge his response".

More importantly (for both of you) he needs time to respond honestly. Under pressure (under the spot light) he may just respond with what he thinks you "want to hear". He needs time to evaluate what it is going to take (to fix) and to decide if he is prepared to take that journey.

I think as a liar and manipulator there's more chance he'll tell the OP what she wants to hear if he's had time to practice his response.

I want him to hear my emotion as well as read it. I'm not expecting an immediate response. But it's a way of telling him everything I want to, without interruption. If I was just to talk to him I would forget everything or he would want to discuss stuff before I was finished.

He can then think through his response.

Weebirdie I think he is a walking red flag right now!

I want the emotion to come out in a safe place - and by that so that he has to face my emotion and where he has to ride his own emotions. I don't want him just to dismiss what I have said. Because I feel I've been dismissed by him since this affair began.

I quite agree tomatoplantproject.

My point was entirely regarding his response. However if you do not want/expect him to respond straight away. Then please ignore my post.

It's all very helpful. I'm expecting an immediate reaction, but the considered response will take a week or longer I would have thought.

Tomato
You are making excellent decisions. The letter is a good thing. Your willingness to give him to know the content beforehand and to give him time to reflect on it is also to be praised.
About your husband's counseling. The history is painful but quite encouraging I think. It seems as if the important aspects here are:
1- he ended the first relationship following counseling.
2- he went to counseling whilst having an affair (IMO: it is good- unusual and interesting as well- it shows some conscience- it is even a good guarantee that when you will recommit and renew your vows he will respect the monogamous vows!)
3- he continued to see the OW whilst in counseling (absolutely disturbing- he should have stopped and talked to you about it.)
4- he decided to try to rebuild his marriage with you- after the counseling. Good. As I said in 2: a good guarantee that he will fully re-commit and respect the monogamous vows this time.

Do you know for sure that the counselor advised him to rebuild his marriage with you? If the answer is no then do you know what were the advices given by the counselor? (The counselor might even have advised him to try to live with the OW before making up his mind for all I know.) What is sure is that now he wants to rebuild your marriage together. Like you said he had months in advance on you to think through and decide on how to approach this process. He just forgot that you are still at the early stages- or even at the pre-stages: the stages of anger of mourning the death of your marriage up to the affair etc. He also forgot that you have your say in this process .
He might want the approach to be what men call 'rational' - i.e. all actions and not much talk: I am back- we will organize stuff together to strengthen us as a couple etc . You want it to be more emotional: talking about motives, feelings and thoughts during and after the affairs etc And of course you want him to realize that his behavior was an earthquake of very large magnitude on your heart and psyche. I hope the counselor will help him grasp this. Do you know why he started the affair? He surely knows well why especially that he was seeing a counselor at that time. Maybe when you give him the letter (in advance- stick to high principles - your aim is not to catch him on this or that but to check whether both of you can rebuild your marriage- ) then you might ask him to send you an e-mail where he explains the motives of his affair (you might already know them).
IMO when we rebuild (or try to rebuild) a marriage we must allow for fluidity and fluctuations in emotions and behaviors- like in any human processes- in both partners. Human processes are not reducible to some well defined molecules with well defined chemical and physical interaction between them.
Good Luck!

Thank you mama. I'm not sure what to make of the counselling he has had already. It's all tied up with the fact he couldn't come to a decision on his own, and also that once he'd made a decision he was still drawn back to her.

You might be right there in terms of thinking about actions and I'm wanting to look at emotions, motives etc. However he has to give me the space and respect and engage with me and the way that I have to deal with this in order for us to have a chance of a future.

Tomato, just to make it clear that I think marriages can recover from an affair but - what more do you need to know other than this

It's all tied up with the fact he couldn't come to a decision on his own, and also that once he'd made a decision he was still drawn back to her.

Im quite shocked that your husband previously had counselling and that another woman he was associated with also ended up in counselling with him.

What is it about him? Why is that the women he meets end up in counselling?

There is something very wrong here.

Weebirdie - yes I'm also more than intrigued about what happened with his previous relationship. I don't trust his version of what happened any longer.

I think he has turned to counselling once before and it was helpful so this time around when he was stuck he returned. But I actually don't have any faith that the counsellor has been good.

I'm reeling still from the revelations. The man that has emerged over the last few months bears no resemblance to the man he was before. I don't know where the real him is but I want to make sure that I have explored all of this with him in a safe space before I make a firmer decision about our future.

Tomato
You are a strong, lucid and clever woman. I trust that you will take the best decision for all of you involved.
Do you happen to know his previous long term partner? Maybe you can have a chat with her- what do you think?
About him not knowing what to do at some stage (go with OW or stay with you), did it happen to him that the best for him would be to be on his own and think through? You probably told him that the time out you are demanding is also a time-out for him to reflect on all the events, and on how all this has affected you. IMO, whether you stay or leave you need to heal. And still the key of your healing is in his hands. Without his active participation you will still be able to reach acceptance and moving forward. Good Luck!

For me it would be important that, even with the counselling, he stillreturned to his Italian bit - I'd have to wonder if he's using the counselling as some sort of validation for his behaviour, rather than seeing it as a tool to help his decision-making

I also thoroughly agree with Wee Birdie that something's very wrong here, an impression underlined by his ridiculous suggestion that he could somehow counsel Tomato himself

Yes, I think you do need that time to work out who he is

It's a bit different two people struggling in a relationship deciding to each seek help, it's quite a different thing to go behind your wife's back and spend time in counseling whilst having an affair, it's a strange one

The whole thing is utter madness. Or at least it doesn't make any sense to me (the definition of nonsense I think).

Somehow I have to retain my own self and tow my own line through this.

Anyhow I have chocolate brownies in the oven which will be ready just in time for my friend to come over and a very sticky and chocolatey daughter to wipe up

Is it possible he is already in counselling again, as he seems so reliant on it? It appears to me that he may well use counselling as a method of validating his choices, and decisions rather than actually taking the opportunity to challenge himself. If that has been the case. it doesn't bode well for your joint sessions. Is it possible for you to see another Counsellor (who hasn't met him), to help you as an individual, rather than as part of a couple. Not suggesting that you necessarily drop the other Counsellor, but as more support for you.

MsPav I have no idea about how he has been using the counsellor. In a way I don't feel like I need too much counselling - you guys have been amazing at helping me clarify my thinking. In any case I really like the counsellor we had met for joint counselling although it's early days and I don't know how much she will push me/us to really help identify the truth.

I actually think dh needs someone to shake him and ask him what the fuck he thinks he has been doing. So far he has confided in people who have looked up to him rather than the people who would challenge him (iyswim). I doubt the counsellor he has been seeing has really helped him shine a light on his behaviour but I don't know what the remit of the other counsellor was or is.

So far he has confided in people who have looked up to him rather than the people who would challenge him (iyswim)

Yes, I see exactly what you mean - and this again suggests that he's looking for validation rather than addressing his behaviour. As in "I must be a good guy - look, x, y or z told me I am, so that proves it's you in the wrong" ??

Ohhhhh enjoy your brownies x

I think you are right Tomato, to be honest I think he needs a therapist not a counsellor

It's why I think it's important I spell out to him in my letter exactly what I think. I want him to stop this cycle of denial and minimising and wake up.

I have just heard from his friend's wife. She has remained friends with his ex so may be able to shine a bit more light on what happened when I eventually meet up with her.

Christina - xpost. Yes - therapist. Brownies are out of the oven so we will break into them while still warm. Friend about to arrive and dd has managed to get chocolate all over herself

Hello Tomato. Do you want him back, and can you see a future with this man?

Hussar:
the second part of your question is the million dollar question to which Tomato tries to answer. Like all difficult questions they are pretty easy to formulate from the outside but much tougher to answer when the direction of your life depends on them.
She must know who he is before answering. If my understanding is correct: she wants to stay with him (he is already back) and rebuild her marriage. But Hussard this will succeed only if her H gets what it takes to be a good re-builder. This is what Tomato is trying to find out. It looks as if he has deep issues that he must be willing to address before she can start the rebuilding process. Of course the first steps are:
1- defining the issues
2- he sees them as issues
3- he wants to face the issues
4- he actively starts to address them.
so I think Christina is spot on: a therapist is needed.
(Tomato: apparently very clever people and very successful ones are a bot Aspies. Do you think he is wired a bit like that? That might explain his behavior and you might have to find a very clever 'Aspie (?)' psychologist for him.)
Good Luck!
(I don't know why your story reminded me of a book I read a long time ago. It is by Aldous Huxley , called something like: The Genius Wife I think. Well it was interesting. I think that the genius' first wife died and he remarried. It seems to me that one was a kind of wonder woman and the other a crap one. Well he was not able to get that. I am not sure my memory is accurate. I wish I can find it and read it again.)

No,he isn't back. I think she is trying to figure how who is is but it is a painful and confusing process

Christina what do you mean he is not back? I thought that he wanted to rebuild his marriage to Tomato. Ah I se silly me: you meant that Tomato is not yet letting him back. OK