Anyone read the times article about how to save your marriage from divorce ?

[kittensinmydinner]

Very briefly, the long and short of it is ... Young children take their toll on a marriage. The 'modern' way of child centred parenting puts too much focus on the children, leading the main carer to stop putting effort into their relationship and the other spouse - working outside the home- to feel pushed out and unloved. (All the love and attention being focussed on the dcs) this leads to resentment from both parties, -Sahp feeling the other doesn't appreciate how hard child caring is, the other feeling they don't matter. Resentment builds until it goes bang - usually but not exclusively with the working parent seeking outside interests to fill the void. The solution. - a la 1950 to put the kids to bed at 7, brush your hair, have dinner ready, bit of lippy ( I'm guessing for the sahm - but who knows) and spend the evening being a spouse not a parent... The philosophy being that by putting your spouses needs before dcs you create a solid foundation for family and happier dcs. Thoughts ladies. Have we gone to far in child centred parenting or is this the holy grail of happy families. ?

Jesus, my mum raised six of us all on her own. I would never have begrudged her a week away on holiday if she had ever been able to afford to go.

And if you couldn't afford two holidays? If it was once a year only then would you go alone still? In the example I gave that was absolutely the situation.

I prioritise my mental health above everything else to be honest. As sufferer of depression and anxiety I know that if I don't have that I don't have anything and most importantly, my DC will suffer. If I felt a week away from them was what I needed to keep myself healthy and well for them, then yes I would go alone still.

Luckily we are always able to afford a few weekends for DP and I and a longer family holiday.

Two weeks in the Caribbean this couple had. Son had no holiday at all that year. Spent the two weeks with grandparents who also look after him every evening after school as the parents choose to be at home during the day (whilst he's at school) and work in the evenings.
That's not parenting or being a family to me at all.

Why are taking this woman seriously? A quick search for her other journalistic gems reveals this www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2293037/Why-openly-preferring-child-wreck-family.html

Dear god who'd want to be married to him? And it looks like she ought to start putting her chikdren first!

singsongsung I agree that I wouldn't do that necessarily but I'm sorry that doesn't make them bad parents. You are not being respectful of other people's choices. I personally would have loved to spend more time with my GP growing up, I hardly ever saw them.

My mother also worked nights. She had to. If she hadn't we would have had no home, no money and no food.

In any case you did actually say you found it strange that parents did not want to spend all time off work they had with their children. That's all time presumably, including a weekend away!

Absolutely!! I love spending time with my kids! They're hilarious! I hate being apart from them. I would miss them desperately if away overnight and would never choose it.

Actually I think my girls would feel really upset by it too. It would feel like I was suggesting I needed a holiday away from them which would never be the case.

Yes but singsong you keep missing the essential point I'm making which is while that is fine for you, and right for you, and right for your DCs, that's not the right way for everyone.

If a beach in Dorset is better for your family than a beach in the Maldives then that's what you do! It's hardly a huge sacrifice is it?! You have children! You are a family! Swanning off on your jollies like a singleton or a couple without kids is crazy to me

You can have more than one holiday. If I could only afford one holiday a year I would of course take the children. Although tbh some of our breaks away have involved DH and I walking the coast and sleeping in a tiny tent. Not really a great expense.

My children benefit hugely from having parents with a happy marriage, they also have interesting parents with fulfilling lives and interests - going away on our own helps that happen.

Sometimes one parent will go away with a few children and leave the other parent and children behind, or we will go on different trips. For example DH has recently been sailing with our elder children. I took the other children away with a friend. If relationships are secure you do not necessarily have to be together all the time, if that is not what you want. You may make other choices which is fine, I would not judge them, we all know our own families best.

I love how they think modern society is way too child-centred, when the cost of living means the overwhelming majority of parents have to outsource childcare after the first year whether they would choose to or not, and therefore this article ignores the fact that many households can't get the kids to bed by 7 because they aren't even through the door until 6.30 at the earliest.

If we're so child-centred, why have we made it almost impossible for a parent to stay at home, financially speaking, in most families? Of course kids are the focus when parents are at home, because that isn't that often. If you have a full working week elsewhere then you have to get the parenting in when with the kids. It's all well and good sighing for the good old days of benign neglect, but that casserole approach to motherhood requires plenty of time around the kids. A luxury far fewer can afford now.

It depends on your definition of child centred, perhaps.

Incidentally I am NOT decrying the fact that women can now work as well as parent, which is brilliant, and so good for the mothers who genuinely want to and the kids who can have happy and fulfilled mums and trained and loving carers when mum is at work. I am decrying that almost all mothers HAVE to seek paid employment now just to keep head above water, and then come home and do all the rest, too.

And somehow the salvation of families is dependent on those mothers also remembering to wear lippy and cosset their husbands, too.

DH and I always ate with the DCs in the week (he worked odd hours but was quite often home by 6ish Then he was SAHD I used to get home 6ish..). I thought, and still do think, it important to eat as a family when possible . Then bath and bed for DCs . On Saturdays though we always ate later, after the kids in bed ,and with wine and long chats ( they started sneaking down for the cheese and biscuit course as they got older, but understood it was 'our' time ). I'm sure it was good for our relationship . But I'm afraid I didn't doll myself up .

You know perfectly well that next week there will be an article about how families don't eat together. And then one about selfish parents who refuse to put kids first. And then back to the original aritlcle. But one thing you can be sure of, in all the scenarios, it will be the mother's fault.

Sleeponeday- I absolutely agree. I would love my life to be more child centred (ie not have to go to work) but sadly the pennies don't stretch. Maternity leave for a year yes, but full pay quickly dwindles to next to nothing. Jobs require more of us all the time etc etc.

I spend enough time away from my kids just going to work. I wouldn't ever choose to spend more time apart.
By the way I'm not decrying the idea of splitting resources and some of the kids being away with one parent while the others are away with the others. I think that's fair enough and gives the kids involved chance to do their thing and have quality time with one parent.

Once DCs were about 14 and 10 (when DH went back to work and we had some money again) we would have a long w/e or a few days away, just the two of us ,once a year while MIL held the fort .Usually a European City. But we also had family holidays, initially and mostly in Cornwall , with the DCs .Would never have gone away without them if we couldnt have afforded both .

But seriously, and I'm not judging here but don't you think that kids that age would have got a lot out of the experience of going to a European city?

Agre with pinningwobble . I dont understand why people feel they 'must' take small children abroad . If you go when its reliably hot it can be far too hot . And British beaches are much more interesting-sand that makes proper castles and there are rock pools. My DCs loved our Cornish holidays and have such happy memories (they were 14 and 10 when we first went abroad, to Paris . They still remember the thrill of flying for the first time and are in no way blase about travelling.) They are accompanying us to Cornwall in 4 weeks and can't wait (they are 29 and 25) But we loved exploriing cities, art galleries etc which they would have hated until they were in their teens .(and we married late and had had our share of adventure).

We took them to plenty of places once they were old enough to appreciate it singsongsung .

I know Stitch

Everything is alwaysthe mother's fault...

Even if a young man takes to crime.... Blame the mother

I really do not understand sing song what part of 'do what's best for yourself and your own dcs, respect other people's for theirs' you are not understanding. It's not a very difficult concept.

I did say 'initially and mostly ' . We went to Paris twice, I took them to Barcelona on my own , S of France, Lake Garda , can't rememberwhere else off the top of my head . Enough to make them curious and 'savvy' travellers . DD 1 went to Switzerland on her own at 14 and Germany twice at 15 and 16 . DD2 to Italy . They are both now very widely and adventurously travelled . But Cornwall is very special to them.

But seriously, and I'm not judging here but don't you think that kids that age would have got a lot out of the experience of going to a European city?

Yes but they are not always the priority. Sometimes DH and I want to lounge about naked, shag all over the house, snog all afternoon, just lie on a beach, spend the whole day reading and quite frankly our children don't need or even want to see that. Sometimes we do things they don't want to do, most years for example we will do a coastal cycle or walk .

Raising six children is hard work, sometimes we just need to be carefree. That does not make us bad parents. Our children have the rest of their lives to travel, they have at least one foriegn and one UK holiday with the whole family every year. The older ones also go on at least one trip with a parent without the whole family and they will usually have at least one school trip a year. They are not deprived, our circumstances mean that we can raise our children differently and it works for us.

It sounds very carefree Phil. More carefree than I've ever managed with two, let alone six.
It's hard work for us all at times let's face it. I've never had the benefit of a supply team ready to take the helm should I fancy a week away. I've never had an hour off let alone a fortnight (unless you count work which is hardly a break).
I wouldn't wish it any other way.
Shall leave you to it now as it seems that discussion isn't welcome.

singsongsung it's you blocking the discussion here, since you seem to be suggesting that any parent who doesn't wish to spend 24 hours a day with their DC is somehow neglectful.

That sounds very hard. I don't mind discussion. You sound like much more of a natural mother than me. I need the break.

I don't really have the selfless streak needed to give up all my desires for my children.