Anyone read the times article about how to save your marriage from divorce ?

[kittensinmydinner]

Very briefly, the long and short of it is ... Young children take their toll on a marriage. The 'modern' way of child centred parenting puts too much focus on the children, leading the main carer to stop putting effort into their relationship and the other spouse - working outside the home- to feel pushed out and unloved. (All the love and attention being focussed on the dcs) this leads to resentment from both parties, -Sahp feeling the other doesn't appreciate how hard child caring is, the other feeling they don't matter. Resentment builds until it goes bang - usually but not exclusively with the working parent seeking outside interests to fill the void. The solution. - a la 1950 to put the kids to bed at 7, brush your hair, have dinner ready, bit of lippy ( I'm guessing for the sahm - but who knows) and spend the evening being a spouse not a parent... The philosophy being that by putting your spouses needs before dcs you create a solid foundation for family and happier dcs. Thoughts ladies. Have we gone to far in child centred parenting or is this the holy grail of happy families. ?

I know of couples who go on holidays without the kids. I actually find that quite sad.
Why is it sad? My husband and I go away with out children and we are in the fortunate position to be able to do the same together. We are parents but we are also adults and individuals.

I haven't read the article (it's Shona Sibary, right?)

RTFT!

No it's not Shona!

I did read the thread - I assumed it was Shona Sibary as she has form for similar. Very remiss of me :).

What I find seriously creepy about articles like this is the undertone that men and children are essentially the same - they both need to be mothered by a selfless drone who can't complain or have any ideas, needs or wishes of her own. There is also a sense that men's lives are Important and that annoying thing called 'having children' that women insist on doing mustn't get in the way of Important things like men having home cooked meals. Men kindly and generously allow their slaves to do that annoying 'having children' hobby but it really is too much for those women to expect men to be in any way inconvenienced by it, I mean, an Important Man can't expect a small child to get priority can he? He is the one who needs care and support and assistance. Those annoying tiny babies are just getting in the way, useless layabouts.

Marriage is a partnership between equals. Women and men embark on having children together, it is a joint enterprise that they are both equally responsible for. Children come first because they are helpless beings who are dependent on their parents for everything. Looking after them isn't some optional foible that women insist on doing because they can't be bothered doing other More Important things like cooking meals for Important Men. Children actually need to be looked after. Men on the other hand are grown adults who can look after themselves and should also be looking after their children.

Partners do need to spend time together and look out for each other. But that goes both ways. Women are not responsible for pandering to manbabies who can't manage without a woman licking their feet.

I think it's sad when parents go abroad once a year and don't take their children yes. I think it's sad that they've denied their children that experience. I think it's sad that they didn't clock up the couples holidays before having children or wait until later on to have them then. I think it's sad that they don't value their time with their kids enough to want to spend all of their time off work with them. I think it's sad.

Singsong I really don't want to get into this debate but are you really saying couples should put off having kids so that they can go on lots of couples holidays before giving them up entirely for 18 years? What if one waits patiently til 40 only to find it's then extremely difficult to get pregnant?

I have to see IMO it's a waste of time taking a very young child an expensive foreign holiday they won't even remember when they're equally happy on Brighton beach with a bucket and spade.

Don't you think that the journalist might just have written this to create some response of the type we are seeing here?

The article- if you read it- is about her following the advice of her mother- which, initially she found shocking.

The other advice is given by a psychotherapist- just one- and many others may well disagree with that.

Surely the whole point is that this is all a bit tongue in cheek and meant to be a red rag to MNetters etc?

I vividly remember my parents going away on a two week holiday (they came back after one week as they missed us) without us when my sister and I were 6 & 9. We were looked after by grandparents.

I remember feeling deserted, and that they didn't love us and wanted to get away from us. In all other respects they were loving and caring. I'd therefore never go on a holiday without my DC, as I remember how it made me feel. DH and I both go away separately without the children, but we've never been away together on a holiday without them.

I'm not saying you should go on holiday without your children, what I'm saying is surely it's up to you what you do and don't do? I don't believe parents who go away for a few days or a week should be made to feel guilty about it.

I could not spend every waking moment with my DC as I am very introverted and really need my own space sometimes or I would go crackers. I need time to myself in order to be a good mother to them.

What cainlindana said. Very eloquently too.

I think it's sad that they don't value their time with their kids enough to want to spend all of their time off work with them. I think it's sad.

As a teacher I had 13 weeks a year off work, plenty of time to have holidays with my husband and my children. Now I am a SAHM, I am with them every day, so plenty of time to go away. My husband has a high level of flexibility with his work and therefore he also has a lot of time with them.
I am not criticising your way of parenting, I am not saying you have to leave your children, you are implying that I don't love mine.

Another "What Cainlindana said" here. I read out extracts to my uninterested DP (while he was trying to watch the golf!), and he thought she wrote it to shame her husband for his poor behaviour, under the guise of pretending to save the marriage.

For example, she got in that he went out on the baby's due date, while switching his phone off, as he wanted to have a last night of freedom, or some such nonsense. The husband comes out of it extremely badly, while she professes to sympathise with him and his selfish views.

Frankly, when the children were little, I often ran to the door with a beaming smile on my face when my DP came home, as I was delighted that he was there to do his share of the donkey work. Can't imagine doing that if I were in her shoes, with her man-child.

Ah, the 50s, where a child could roam freely over the Yorkshire moors, maybe popping in for tea at Ian and Myra's place. Ah, the 80s, where a child could play in the streets until dark, maybe popping in for tea at Fred and Rose's place. Happy days.

I agree that child-worship is ruining relationships. And can I ask what is the point of taking a child under one on a long-haul flight to the Maldives like one of my fb friends did just before Christmas? I honestly don't see the point in dragging a tot thousands of miles, annoying aeroplane passengers in the process, to sit on an exotic beach for a fortnight. Looks good on fb though

What exactly was she supposed to do with said child instead? Most of us don't have these mythical long-suffering grandparents to take our kids.

Children under one, particularly if they are not walking yet, are the best to take on planes, including long haul.
It's the older ones that are a problem.

What exactly was she supposed to do with said child instead? Most of us don't have these mythical long-suffering grandparents to take our kids.

^ Quite.

Also, under 2s pay only a nominal airfare as they share a parent's seat. That's easier with a baby or 1 year old than a wriggly nearly 2 year old. There are relatively few additional costs taking young children and babies long haul. We took our then 15 month old to the US and did a road trip. It was actually good fun as he took the time difference in his stride by napping in the car. Having him with us was a real conversation starter with the locals and I think we all benefitted in a way that we wouldn't have if it had just been the two of us. People were even really child-friendly and chatty with us in a downtown restaurant in the business district (also near tourist attractions) on a weekday lunchtime - business men in suits making small talk with DS etc.

I read the article and it is broadly how we brought up our kids - not the lippy and hair brush bit necessarily . BUT my kids were in bed 7-7 and the evenings were adult time for us to talk to each other/ have some none child time alone. Yes it meant if my DH was not in from his commute by 7pm he did not see the kids much, but he spent masses of time with them at the weekends. We did get a babysitter once a month and have a night out. We had no grandparents nearby to do any regular babysitting but once a year they came down for a week whilst we went away as a couple. We did also take our kids on UK holidays whilst they were small and later forgeign holidays.

I have been married 28 years. I have 2 fantastically well adjusted grown up kids.

PS

Here here purdiepie.

Lots of people like to claim that what has gone wrong with their marriage is somehow symptomatic of society as a whole. It's a form of vanity.

Smiling at the comments about children getting nothing from expensive long haul holidays. The answer is simple- you don't go on them! You go on holidays that work for your family rather than dumping the kids with the grandparents etc. If a beach in Dorset is better for your family than a beach in the Maldives then that's what you do! It's hardly a huge sacrifice is it?! You have children! You are a family! Swanning off on your jollies like a singleton or a couple without kids is crazy to me.

singsong You are being highly judgmental of other people's choices. If you don't want to leave your kids and that works for you then great. If other people need time away from their children then who on earth are you to say that they're not caring parents?

If I was around my DC 24/7 I would go crackers. I need a couple of hours' breathing space with DP from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have had two divorces. Both marriages failed because I didn't want to be in them. It had fuck all to do with putting lippy on to have dinner. Sorry.

A couple of hours Pinning or a fortnight in the Maldives??

Sadly I cannot afford a fortnight in the Maldives.

I am not above a long weekend away in the Lake District with DP however.

I will certainly consider going on a longer holiday without DC when they are teenagers and assuming we are able to afford to also take them on holiday at another time.