Anyone want to talk about emotional abuse?

[notmadafterall]

Hello MNers

Have NC as I want to start fresh, and not have to go through the particulars of what happened to me again. I have had a few threads on here and received wondrous support from the lovely people of Mumsnet (both sexes), who stayed with me during my break up from an EA man.

I am just trying to get my head around it all and was hoping to start a discussion on this awful phenomenon. Perhaps it could be a help to someone out there who is going through it at the moment, or trying to get over it, as I am.

I read the Lundy Bancroft book, which really, really helped. An amazing book which should be on the National Curriculum.

I have read so many threads on here relating to emotional abuse. Its all still fairly new to me and its difficult to understand how it seems to be so rife. Its horrendous.

I was convinced I was crazy for so many years, and now that I have an understanding of what he was doing, I feel such relief. Not mad after all!

So, if anyone wants to share their experiences, or has anything to say about EA, please do.

I personally am particularly interested in how to deal with an EA ex, who is being difficult (we have a small child together).

However I am interested to hear anything about the subject, as I am trying to understand it better. The more I talk about it or read about it, the less crazy I feel. This includes partners - men or women, and families, friends, parents etc.

I hope people respond to this thread as I think its such an important thing to understand and get out there. I had no idea it was a "thing" up until a few months ago. Now that I know about it, the last 10+ years make more sense.

I look forward to any replies

Fuck, thanks Bertie.

You will get different answers re whether abusers know what they are doing. I personally think that they don't, or if they do, it is a very fleeting realisation and then they justify it.

You are a parent, yes? You have probably slipped into habits, as a parent, that you never thought you would do. We shout more, we let them watch more TV, we care less about healthy eating, or whatever is your personal guilt farm. And the thing is that this is actually okay. Children are not harmed by this. It's okay for us to justify it. What wouldn't be okay is if you took it to the extreme - when shouting doesn't work you shout louder, eventually culminating in screaming in a child's face. Most of us have boundaries of this nature, we don't take it to the extreme, if we occasionally do slip, we feel guilty and try to make changes to avoid it in future.

I believe that the abusive man's (let's just go with the typical gender split here for simplicity, of course it also applies to same sex relationships or female on male abuse) mindset is flawed to begin with. They work under a faulty premise, perhaps that they must be dominant in the relationship, that their role within a relationship is somewhat of a parental/guiding/fixing one, or they believe that co-operation doesn't really exist and all human relationships exist on a scale of conflict so they expect it and perpetuate it. Sometimes, too, it's fear of loss. My mum told me the story a lot of times about the little boy who finds a butterfly which is so beautiful and amazing that he takes it home to show his mother. When he gets there he has held it so tightly that it is all crushed and broken. He was so afraid it would fly away that he killed it.

So anyway. Faulty premise. That leads to a situation where they act in a particular way to get something that they think they need. Perhaps they feel a bit guilty, or perhaps they don't realise that what they are doing is unorthodox - either way, it works, and - argh, I read a brilliant quote the other day on a thread, I will have to find and attribute, but basically from what we know about human behaviour, faced with a forced decision which challenges our morals, we are more likely to change our morals than change our behaviour, or in some cases we keep both and exist in an uncomfortable state known as cognitive dissonance.

Basically, they see it as necessary and justified even if they don't always see it as right. They really feel that you are driving them to it and they have no choice.

Are you okay softly?

The hardest thing is that even people who love you don't necessarily understand how damaging this stuff is, even when you explain to them that every day is like a game of chess - you have to try to be 3 steps ahead of him because accepting what appears to be a nice gesture comes back to haunt you later, so you have to weigh up the potential benefits and pitfalls to every single situation, it's exhausting.

When I tried to tell my DB about some of the little things my XH did to keep me 'down' he simply said "Nobody else really gets it, so it's not worth trying to explain" - wow, thanks! It felt like someone sticking their fingers in their ears saying "La la la, I'm not listening!" It made me realise that it didn't matter what anyone else thought, I had split with him because I KNEW (thanks to MN) that it wasn't right. I didn't need to give it a label or try to get anyone else to accept it.

DB remained friendly with my ex after the split and never seemed to blame him for how appallingly he'd behaved towards me. Luckily other family members had seen it first hand, XH belittling me, checking my receipts and telling me I had spent too much on certain items at the supermarket and should return them etc. (we're talking about £3 on something that XH didn't like here, not mega bucks!)

FWIW I believe that XH thought he was just being practical and sensible. I don't think he was a master manipulator like some of these men, he was just thoughtless and was under the misguided impression that he was more important than anyone else. Sadly I had agreed and colluded with him.

His oh-so-important job that meant he must never be woken in the night by a crying baby (3 DCs, all BF for at least 8 months - that's a lot of broken nights he avoided!)

His impossible standards for housework, despite never lifting a finger to hoover, cook or clean anything.

Telling me I couldn't do food shopping because there was no money in the bank this week then buying himself a Kindle (but that was ok because he needed it for work rather than having to read printed out versions of text).

Fussiness and complaints about the food I cooked, what I fed the DCs (he's now the one putting Haribo and crisps in their lunchboxes!) how quickly his dinner was ready when he got home from work - he didn't like it ready when he got in, as that was too soon, but he didn't want to wait too long as he was hungry, so I had to time it to perfection, even though somedays he finished work at 3pm, sometimes 4 or 5, sometimes 7.

I was poised to fail on every count, second guessing what time to make it, what to give him and then he'd cover it in chilli sauce because it was flavourless and bland (apparently now he doesn't eat spicy food )

I've actually forgotten a lot of the shitty little things he said and did, but suffice to say he rarely complimented me, mainly 'joked' about how manly and overweight I was - ha ha! But it's funny you see so you can't get upset about it otherwise you're just a humourless bitch.

So sorry to hear that so many of you have also had similar - and worse - relationships. What a fucking RELIEF to be out of it! And to have met a wonderful man who thinks I'm amazing and to be fair, I am

But the upshot is that an abuser is an inherently selfish person; they care only about themselves. Their abuse is meaningless to them because it really doesn't matter to them that they have hurt you. You did what they wanted, didn't you? So why are you moaning about it. Is their attitude.

The easiest way to spot an abuser early on is to look out for green flags and notice how they react to several situations.

• Boundaries. Little ones, insignificant ones, inconvenient ones. A respectful person will respect another's boundaries whatever. They might ask for clarification if they are unsure, they won't steamroll over them. An abuser will wheedle their way past boundaries in such a way that you don't necessarily notice except in hindsight. When you notice, don't explain or excuse it, (which will be your instinct), run.

• Small social mishaps. You know the scene in every romantic comedy where the girl spills a coffee over the Hugh Grant type and he ends up apologising to her. That is actually a normal social reaction (at least in our culture, it may vary culturally). We tend to apologise over each other and insist its our own fault, while thinking "Shit! They must be SO pissed off!" even if you feel pissed off yourself. Abusers don't bother to hide the pissed off feelings and will make it clear, perhaps without making a scene, but even so. But because our (normal) social/cultural rules tell us to accept blame and apologise, we expect the other person to be annoyed and so we accept this reaction as our due. It's not - watch out for it. And in fact an emotionally healthy person, even if they are having a really bad day and let out the annoyed feelings at the time, will feel mortified about it and most likely apologise about it later. An abuser won't, because they don't have any sense of this expectation and like to blame others, therefore they will genuinely think it was your fault and that you deserved to be shouted at/feel guilty. A follow up to this (and a particular sign that you're not just dealing with social impairment or cultural differences) would be if they bring it up again later, especially to tell you how clumsy/lazy/messy you are, even if it's a joke. Again, you don't notice this consciously, because often if it IS a recurring issue for you, you probably believe on some level that you are clumsy/lazy/messy/etc, so when somebody else tells you you are, you don't blink.

• The waitress test. That old chestnut, but it's true. Watch how they treat people they consider beneath their own level - which includes animals and children, and possibly their mother. In fact any dramatic change in behaviour towards different categories of people, whatever those categories are. That means he is categorising you.

• Then green flags. Genuine feeling compliments/observations, rather than generic ones. Making time for people. Listening. A sense of fairness, but not rigidity (counting down to the last penny is stingy). I'm sure there have been some brilliant green flag threads in the past so my quick three minute list will be inferior to those :) Somebody willing to discuss the difficult issues.

WHY ARE SO MANY MEN LIKE THIS??! (And before anyone accuses me of being sexist, I'm aware that women can be emotionally abusive too but on the whole, based on my own experience and stories I have read, it does seem to be predominantly men who cause these kinds of problems in relationships).

Patriarchy :)

Get angry! Seriously. Emotional abuse is FAR more common than most people realise. Once you understand it you see it all over the place. And yes it is a lot more common in men although women do emotionally abuse too. (Actually I think it's more common in both sexes than people realise). There are a lot of screwed up relationships out there. We can help the next generation, though. All is not lost. And I do believe if you care about this issue, you'd find a lot interesting to read about feminism.

One thing I think is very damaging is this idea that men and women are vastly different from each other. We are socialised differently, but there is very little actual biological difference, but the idea that there is is hugely damaging.

Boys/men think that girls/women are some mysterious force which needs special handling. Girls/women think that men are odd creatures who are hard to understand and base expectations of them on experience and hearsay.

This is damaging. Why not just see the opposite sex as humans, as infinitely flawed and nuanced as members of our own sex. We are not from Mars or Venus, we are from Earth.

I honestly think this is the most important message we can teach our children - to just communicate and see a person of the opposite sex as another person. Trying to get involved in complicated games doesn't help, it just confuses matters and plays into abusive dynamics.

OK here: From recent Cognitive Dissonance thread in the feminism section:

There is some psychological theory that, contrary to popular belief, people do not alter their behaviour to fit their values as often as they alter their values to fit their behaviour. (if you feel the need to alter either). Eg - if you find yourself having to buy groceries on your credit card, you are less likely to think "debt is bad. I will eat nothing but broken biscuits this month" than "I used to think debt was bad, but I guess it is ok now I find myself buying groceries on credit". Or - there is a whole class of people who will just say "sure, debt is terrible" at the same time as they hand over their credit card

And then, from the wikipedia article about Schema (a set of preconceived ideas or beliefs somebody holds):

New information that falls within an individual's schema is easily remembered and incorporated into their worldview. However, when new information is perceived that does not fit a schema, many things can happen. The most common reaction is to simply ignore or quickly forget the new information.[16] This can happen on a deep level— frequently an individual does not become conscious of or even perceive the new information. People may also interpret the new information in a way that minimizes how much they must change their schemata. For example, Bob thinks that chickens don't lay eggs. He then sees a chicken laying an egg. Instead of changing the part of his schema that says 'chickens don't lay eggs', he is likely to adopt the belief that the animal in question that he has just seen laying an egg is not a real chicken. This is an example of 'disconfirmation bias', the tendency to set higher standards for evidence that contradicts one's expectations.[17] However, when the new information cannot be ignored, existing schemata must be changed or new schemata must be created (accommodation).[.....] For example, if this chicken has red feathers, Bob can form a new schemata that says 'chickens with red feathers can lay eggs'. This schemata will then be either changed or removed, in the future.

This describes both the abuse victim's mindset (e.g. they receive information that their relationship is not good, but it doesn't fit with that schema so they ignore or forget or twist it) and the abuser's mindset (e.g. if they receive information that what they are doing is unnecessary and/or cruel)

Hi op and everyone else who has posted, there's some really great stuff on here although I haven't managed to read through them all.

EA is awful, I managed to split with my ex just over a year ago after a relationship which was so abusive but I didn't even realise til he had left (we also have a young child).

Bertie they are some really good examples you listed by the way.

I saw someone had asked if the abuser are aware of what they are doing? I too have always been curious of this,not sure why, but my ex still tried to control me and causes me a lot if problems mentally so I guess I still wonder why he does this?

I have been through CBT and it helped but I still find myself constantly doubting relationships, friendships, feel paranoid about what people think of me and suffer from anxiety over the smallest things. Does anyone else get this?

Thanks again for a great thread op and everyone who's sharing

Yeah not in a great place tbh. Might be NC time.

Thanks

We're here if you need us softly. Take care.

I don't believe they are conscious of being abusive, and if they are, they believe that everyone behaves like this.

I know someone who did a perpetrators course and was left devastated to discover that he was indeed, an abuser. Utterly devastated to discover the damage that had been done. And constantly questions every interaction now. They are trying to not be abusive, but know that it is deeply ingrained, like letters in a stick of rock.

People on MN always say that abusers never change. I understand why, it is dangerous to hope for change in an abusive relationship. But it isn't true. They can change. But most don't. It's too hard.

I wonder what the markers are that separate those that do recognise it in themselves, as opposed to the majority that don't?

See...now...Queen, your post has got me thinking again.

Sometimes I am convinced that it is I who is the abuser, not my ex. He says I abuse him, and sometimes the way I speak / act with him is horrible.

I know it is part of the script for the abuser to say they are being abused...so how can anyone really know who the abuser is?

Maybe I am the abuser, and part of my abuse is accusing him of abusing me.

I'm confusing myself here

I hope someone gets what I am saying.

Softly - I hope you come back to us under another NN

I am aware that I have been abusive in the past. I have sobbed and wrung my hands with shame and grief in therapy, and my therapist says that I did the best I could at the time, and now I know better, I do better, and that is good.

I still feel terrible though. Especially not always putting my children first, and sometimes flowing with the drama, rather than walking away and keeping their world calm and stable. I can't stress enough how bad I feel about that.

The difference is, that I was, and am prepared to look at my behaviour, my reactions, my insecurities, and to understand about why I may have attachment issues, and work on them. And work I do. Bloody hard.

I have been surrounded by abuse forever. As said by a PP, it is more common that we realise. The only thing we can do is be the best we can as individuals. I have no relationship with any member of my birth family as a result, and with the express intention of keeping my children safe. They all still believe that I am some kind of demon who is to blame for EVERYTHING. Some of it bordering on comical from this perspective I have now.

His impossible standards for housework, despite never lifting a finger to hoover, cook or clean anything.

This was my ex. I made every tea. I did my best to keep the house ticking along, even with a newborn, while he never lifted a finger but felt free to moan about the state of the house. Oh, and he pointed out every little fault with any DIY that needed doing, or hadn't stood the test of time very well, and I was made to feel that I was responsible for it.

Once in a blue moon, after I would snap about doing all the sodding cooking, he would cook, but he would make such a mess (that I had to clean up) and look for so much praise for his ONE OFF meal that it was very frustrating. I'm sure he did it on purpose.

I was abused for 10 years. I've been split from him for coming up to two years, and moved out two years this summer. At first I was so happy to be free, and then I muddled my way through. I hit a very bad wall at 18 months when he pulled a controlling stunt and I've been struggling ever since, as I had a realisation about how serious the stuff I'd gone through was, and how he was still affecting me, and trying to control me through our child and former home.

Referred myself to WA for a support group, I dug up all that hurt and had nowhere to go with it as their support groups are full. Got my GP to refer me for CBT back in October, and the referral is finally coming through now, and I'm seeing a therapist tomorrow but I have a bad feeling about it (spoke to her again on the phone and she sounds dull as dishwater. But I'll give it a go.)

I do have a charity online CBT/telephone therapist and they are very kind, we have contact every week or so, but they made it clear they have no experience with EA. The therapist says things like "remember you were very strong and brave to leave, that took resilience - you didn't stay" and I have some very positive things in my life, but they are still shadowed by my past and no closure. I desperately want to be free of it.

It's not easy trying to get help from the NHS and other services for mental health. Waiting lists are long, charities are running on a shoestring. Instant help is pretty much impossible unless you can pay for private therapy. I don't know anyone who can afford that. When you get an NHS referral at long last, it's a lottery whether you'll be placed with someone who is the right fit. There isn't much choice.

These boards are all I have at the moment. I sometimes feel worse after typing out my current problems, but at least I can come here at anytime, and have something. Sometimes I am seething with rage, sometimes I have panic attacks that stop me working. There are a lot of days where I am so low I can't do any work.

I'm going to go out for a stompy walk to try and clear my head!

Just to add to my last post;

Our default setting is to say....no! That can't be me! But this is fear, and shame. There can never be any harm in having a good long look at our own responses.

I think that there may be more men than women with extreme problems, because they are not socialised to do this, to look at themselves and discuss how they are feeling/coping/etc. Hence the existence of this forum!

However, the most abusive person in my orbit was my mother.

Trauma and cptsd play a massive role here too. the abuse in my family, and my h's family goes back a long long way. Trauma is a big part of it.

That's a good point. I work very hard not to let my sadness or irritation or anger with my ex affect my daughter. It's a huge task everyday to keep my emotions in check around her. I try very hard to wait until she's asleep to have a cry. And when she's back with him, I spend the first few days recovering from having to bottle it up. queenofthenight you are right, you are the bigger person for trying to get help and working hard on it, and that counts for a lot.

Having a long history of abuse is so hard. I had an EA father, a very effed-up childhood and my mother was very weak and broken down by my dad, so I had very little guidance and support. I made some poor choices in men and dropped out of uni, I had no idea what I wanted or much confidence.

The realisation that my ex is in many ways my father was a bitter pill to swallow. Thankfully I have a wonderful partner now who is the complete opposite. But I am so angry with myself for having chosen and wasted 10 years with a man so like my father, even though I despised him and what he did to my family. I didn't see any comparisons or warning signs when we first met, not that I can recall - although I was probably in denial and very insecure.

Yes it's common for abusers to say (and even, indeed, feel) that they have been abused. There's a great bit in Lundy about this actually. It is possible to tell who is the abuser and who is the abused, and people who work with victims and/or abusers can immediately tell, if they are doing their job correctly.

In short (obv it's more complex than this) if you are having doubts and thinking it's your fault then it's not you. An abuser does not think they are in the wrong. They have odd unrealistic expectations, they act entitled (they feel it.) They always justify their abuse. In Lundy he mentioned that some men come onto the program expecting to learn about non violent ways to control their partners. They couldn't conceive of a relationship where one partner was not in control of the other!

queen's situation is somewhat different in that it's looking at an entire situation later with clarity.

couldn't just read and run,

I'm not out of an EA relationship, instead my stepdad was EA to my mum. from me being about 4 years old right up until 2 years ago (bear in mind i'm 28 now)

the day she started sleeping on the sofa was their end, when he realised she was stronger than he ever thought. she never did actually leave him, in a last attempt at control he left one day saying he was going to do the food shopping. took the car, and never came back (as far as we knew, we had her moved house within a week and never went back to the old place - didn't tell neighbours etc)

he is father to my 2 brothers (now 21 and 23) and hasn't even tried to contact them since he left, we literally have no idea where he is and like it that way, however a solicitor has been in touch with DM to say hes refusing a divorce - hmmmm.

growing up with that put such a strain on mine and DMs relationship, she sided with him on every occasion, i moved out at 21, and only then did i notice the little things, she would have to ask him for money, all the bills though in her name were paid for from a bank account in his name - nothing joint. she didn't work as wasn't 'allowed' to it was expected she be at home to look after the house and us children, we moved a few times as children - about 20 miles from the village where DM grew up and all her friends ( and ours)

DM and I are building a relationship now, but its tough - i only saw that she didn't want us around, when in reality she had been told for all these years that she would have nothing without him and that we children needed him bringing in the wage, would she let her children be homeless etc etc?!

I'm sure he will have been awful towards us too, but i honestly don't remember much form growing up - some kind of blocking out probably. I feel for you ladies I really do, after seeing the shell my DM is now at almost 50 and thinking of the life she has missed out on it hurts me. But now she has started a new life, and will make up for those years.

I am going to have to revisit the Lundy book.

Yes, I know its him that is the abuser. I know this, implicitly. He is entitled, and feels justified, and never wanted to work on the relationship. Never comforted me though tough times, he laughed when I was upset. I could go on and on. I thought for many years I was ruining the relationship, I was too needy and emotional, too quick to anger. If only I could switch off my emotions, things would be perfect

And yes, now I am looking at him from outside of the relationship, he is scarily like my father. Manipulative, selfish, quietly and consistently derogatory (so quietly that I thought I was imagining it). Cares for no one except his own wants and needs. When I speak to my mum about it, we are astonished at the similarities between the two men. My mum divorced him when I was little, thank goodness. But he utterly broke her and she has never been able to trust another man.

History has repeated itself, and my ex delights in telling me its a self-fulfilled prophecy, and what I and my mum wanted all along (to be right about untrustworthy men).

He sent an email to me yesterday - it seems he is being Mr Nasty again. Name calling, blaming, guilt tripping. I was surprised and delighted by my reaction. I did answer this email (I know I shouldn't have but I haven't got that far into recovery yet!) but my reply was measured and calm and factual, and concentrated on contact with our child. Had that been even 3 months ago, I would have crumbled and cried and gnashed my teeth!

notmad I'm in a similar situation to you. My H left a couple of weeks ago (after refusing to leave for a couple of months). he also calls me the abuser, and I'm left feeling so confused about whether I am or am not.

and then I get confused about whether he is actually an abuser or not or whether I'm over-reacting.

Mine constantly denied he'd said things, or said that he'd told me something else, and even sometimes said that I'd said something. He frequently called me lazy, would often undermine my work or hobbies by just not turning up on time so taht I couldn't leave the children. In the end he was staying out at work or just going out so that I would have to leave my job early to come home. He would hurl abuse at me, would be extremely passive aggressive (while I was ranting in a madwoman type of way), he'd overreact about the most random, minor things and be so unpleasant that I'd be crying ("crocodile tears" apparently) and then the next minute be complimenting me or stroking me. Really messed with my head.

and I'm a rational, intelligent person who was turned into a wreck.

Anyway, I'm slightly free of him now, although he's still playing his games by refusing to engage with the legal process, refusing to agree to pay any maintenance (and then just randomly transfer it over), stopping payment of other debts that need paying, and he decided that mother's day morning was the right time to send me a hugely upsetting text.

Sorry it's long. I suspect the best way is to detach and to take any power away from them. To keep your distance, and only talk about practical child related things when necessary. it's hard where you need them for money though (as I do ) as my H is constantly holding that over me.

I would look long and hard at even replying to emails. I too had lots of guilt tripping, pleas for time, for understanding, then nasty messages when I refused. I was exhausted. Just seeing his name come up in my emails makes me feel anxious. Now it's only emails about selling the house, and our LO. Factual, nothing more.

Don't reply straight away. Leave it for a few days, or don't reply at all if you don't really have to. Bullies want your time and attention.

I never got any apologies. He dismissed all of my issues I raised, when I dared to. His response was usually one of these:

"Well leave me then!"
"You always make it ALL ABOUT YOU."
"I spoke to x friend and he said it just sounds like a normal row, you're overreacting."
"That's just how I am." (and a sulk about how uncaring I was that he had problems, I should be more supportive etc.)

When I started to finally, properly break up with him (it took 4 months) but initially agreed to stay after airing some of my concerns (he would only allow me to say so much) because he begged me to stay, I was gobsmacked when he then insisted that I made a list of what I was going to do to change for the better too. I refused.

The final straw was his birthday. I was skint but had put an £80 present on a card (against my better judgment, but I was worried about his reaction) and took him for a nice lunch with our DD that I couldn't afford. We decorated the front room in balloons and she made him a card. Apparently that wasn't special enough, and I was the bad one for not letting him sulk all day on his birthday if he wanted to.

...and he's just emailed again.

He says that he thinks he gets why I split up with him, and listed his behaviours towards me, which when he looks back on them now, are emotionally abusive. He feels guilty and sorry for the pain he caused me. Its a long email but he said all the right things and I have spent the last 10 min in the toilet in work, crying.