Feminism - thoughts?

[tyuiobnm]

I am quite traditional. I don't really understand women who are so keen to 'be equal' to men. I understand that equal pay etc is something that needed to be addressed...but seriously, in today's world, is any of that even an issue anymore?

Without going into huge amounts of analysis, I think the very fact women are feminists, undermines women completely. I have a good job and feel happy with my life, and as a result I'm proud to be a woman...I enjoy organising the home, cooking and cleaning... and although I know it's not the same for everyone, I think generally women are much better and more in tune with these kinds of tasks.

There are also lots of reasons why women and men are, and always will be different. IMO I think people should get over it.

On a recent date - not sure how we got onto this topic - but the guy was very surprised I wasn't a feminist. I found this extremely unattractive.

Thoughts/opinions?

Sorry Joy the thread moved on while i was typing

Joy I totally get what you say too. Woman can be total bastard as well and loose sight of the real issues. You only have to be on mumsnet for a bit to know that

But, as a feminist I don't have to like "all" women.

bastards

Women who put other women down, criticise their choices and their appearance aren't feminists.

Not all women are feminists. In fact, we're almost certainly in the minority.

I'd urge everybody reading this to think.

If you've had children and then had to think about whether to return to work or not, how many men offered an opinion without being asked?

How many men have questioned your work/home life choices?

How many women have questioned your partner and seen their choices to work, or not, as a father as being wrong? How many men go through this angst or put others through it?

I'm afraid that women are our own worst enemies but blaming men gives those that do a distraction from their own actions.

I couldn't give a shiny shit about the choices of other women, I just wish they'd do me the same courtesy.

Joy: I see it as rape by an utter cunt
You were raped by a man who saw you as his property

I don't enjoy organising my home, cooking or cleaning. My husband does so he does that and I earn more money. I find men of my husband's generation have embraced feminism as it brings them so many benefits - closer relationships and more time with their DCs, the chance of equal parental leave, not having to take on all financial burdens themselves.

I'm not surprised you are struggling with dating. You probably need to look for an older man or one from a less equal culture.

And I would say, Joy, that those who criticised you were not being feminist.

However, many men do offer unsolicited opinions on women's clothes, appearance etc, by way of street harassment. Many more men control, abuse and rape their female partners than the other way round. Many men see no issue with creating films where the only role of the woman is to run around screaming and then get killed (I acknowledge a few, but not most, of such films are created by women).

So I can't agree that women are the worst enemy of women, though I am sorry for your shitty experiences.

women are their own worst enemy

I feel uncomfortable with this sentiment. It's like saying, "until you all think the same way you can't start acting against misogyny".

I suspect most men don't ask women about their choices because the outcome doesn't affect them or because they don't care.

I doubt very much that the lack of questioning is simply because men respect your choices.

No man has ever put down my choices. Plenty of women have

So really you have a problem identifying with women, not feminists?

I'd agree with that, Blistory.

Women try to control my choices in my daily life, I've been raped by one utter cunt, one. I won't extraolate to what 'men' are like because it's not relevant.

You were raped by a cunt and you won't extrapolate that to a general perspective on men, which is fair enough; but yet you were criticised by some women and you will extrapolate that to a perspective on women in general and feminists in particular...

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I wonder if you take men's lack of comment on your personal work choices as tolerance and general benignity when it is more likely to be complete indifference.

"Look at all the women's magazines. I've never bought them nor wanted to buy into that way. "

My loathing of women's magazines is a big part of what I consider my personal brand of feminism. But I understand that some people enjoy them, and the people who make them need jobs, etc etc, so whatever. I don't buy them or read them and that's about as far as it goes.

I know what you mean about women criticising other women. About making eachother feel inadequate. For me, that very way of being is kind of tied into feminism in quite a deep way. Men don't do this the same way, as individuals, but the way the culture is set up, they don't need to. It is our job to be thinking our appearance is important. Our job to be 'balancing' home and work. And I think because of hundreds of years of that, women do tend to see it as important and I think we're very easily threatened, made to feel like we're doing it all 'wrong' or to judge women for not doing it our way - because if people do things differently, then maybe I'm the one who's wrong, if you see what I mean.

Basically, on an individual level, I have no problem with men. Like you said - there are nice ones and utter cunts, just as there are with women. But on a larger level, I can't help but see that there are things that are unfair on us, ways the world works that favour men. It's not even like the average man even wants it that way. It just is. And so I'm a feminist.

Joy, it does seem that you feel very unsupported by friends of the female gender which is sad. Vivacia is right in my humble opinion though, this really doesn't have anything to do with "feminism" as I see it.

Personally I think women's mags and lad's mags are equally poisonous in their representation of women.

While women's mags have female editors, who do you think owns the companies that run them, the ad companies that advertise in them, in short who makes the most money from them? It's not women.

tyui Until my H's affair I would have almost agreed with you. I would have said: OK if there are women who like to be the classical definition of 'women', then sure enough our civilization is advanced enough to allow them to do it: to abandon their career, cut on their working hours out of the house and enjoy building a home and raising the kids. I stopped working because my little ones needed a full time mum. And he had to work hard to provide for 4 kids + STAM+ all kind of therapies for the little ones + our sick mums. He was willing to be abroad far away from us for a long period of time (for monies) and when he begged us to join him: I said no, because of the various ongoing therapies. Result: an other woman (whom I know) wooed him - he was more than happy to have sex with her the first few days, but she would not let him go (I got everything documented) until she fell pregnant of him. I am sure that were I still pursuing my career he would not have gone abroad for long periods of time and would not have had an affair (no woman can woo him when I am around or when he is away from home for just a couple of weeks) . We would have more monies and he would have been more connected to home and he would have more contributed to the kids education (as he did with the elder ones). I can still earn a lot of monies if I want. I can still find easily a job. I got excellent networks. But the affair and the affair's child will not disappear.

We are in the process of salvaging our relationship. We hope the OW will one day allow the little one to meet us. The little child does not yet know that her father is a married father of 4. She is raised in lies and deceit. My H can call her every so often and he does it.
Anyway: my daughters are doing studies at UNI that are usually male-related although they love art and music and they excel in these subjects. Feminism says: women must be financially independent and men must take part of home-building. It is good for women and it is good for men.
Please do never give up on your financial independence and do encourage your H to be involved in building a home and in raising the kids. Both of you will win. He will feel more connected and less under pressure to earn monies. You will also win: you will grow in your job, can quit the relationship without financial fears if you do not feel good in it.
Some think that feminism is male hatred. It is not. Some think that feminism is the contrary of being feminine. It is not. Good Luck

Needasilverlining, I laughed out loud at that.

But, as a feminist I don't have to like "all" women.

Nor do I. But even women I don't personally like much, I still think they should get equal pay and the right not to be sexually assaulted and so on.

I don't agree with everything all feminists say, either. I can't - there isn't consensus on some things, like porn, so if I agree with one viewpoint, I'm automatically disagreeing with another. But I'd rather we can discuss different viewpoints than insist there's only one true path.

It's not always simple, but some of it is.

Just wanted to add that if you want an erpc, you may have to fight for it. Hopefully not, but I did- my hospital have a policy of minimal intervention and not fully presenting patients with the options.
Good luck

Just came back to the thread. I'm a bit meh about you putting a sentence of mine in italics there EBearhugh, why was that?

Did I need to explain that I wished all women whether I liked them or not to have a power balanced place in society?

As this is your first post OP it seems a rather gung-ho way to start here

Maybe, just maybe the OP is bucking against the grain in a round about way? Stating a question because deep down she knows that she's being suppressed?

Those who shout loudest are the meakest?

i was just quoting it, PrettyFeet, and adding to the thread with some of my thoughts. Shouldn't be anything to feel meh about.