Feminism - thoughts?

[tyuiobnm]

I am quite traditional. I don't really understand women who are so keen to 'be equal' to men. I understand that equal pay etc is something that needed to be addressed...but seriously, in today's world, is any of that even an issue anymore?

Without going into huge amounts of analysis, I think the very fact women are feminists, undermines women completely. I have a good job and feel happy with my life, and as a result I'm proud to be a woman...I enjoy organising the home, cooking and cleaning... and although I know it's not the same for everyone, I think generally women are much better and more in tune with these kinds of tasks.

There are also lots of reasons why women and men are, and always will be different. IMO I think people should get over it.

On a recent date - not sure how we got onto this topic - but the guy was very surprised I wasn't a feminist. I found this extremely unattractive.

Thoughts/opinions?

I have a friend who is a SAHM in a very traditional Christian household - she's a feminist.

I have a friend who is a head teacher in a school - she's a feminist

Another friend is head of marketing at the company she works for, also a feminist.

I run my own business, I'm a feminist

The thing we all have in common is we all think we are equal to men. Not the same as, just like I'm not the same as all my friends but equal to.

Oh and non of us hate men. Some of us married men and gave birth to boys and we quite like them! We even wear skirts, heels and makeup (when we can be arsed) and have even been known to shave legs occasionally.

Yes of course we are different that's not in dispute. But I'm rather gobsmacked to think that you don't see how unjust and unfair society as whole is against women. It's everywhere and I'm talking from a middle aged woman's perspective here. If I had to list why I'd be here for a couple of weeks minimum bashing my keyboard without even a tea break!

Please please don't say "bless em, it's not the blokes fault" or I'm likely to combust.

if they leave work to bring up kids, how can they expect to walk back into a job at the same pay as someone who has been there for the past 3 years?

I've done ML twice and gone back to either a better job or a better salary. Because employers want to retain skills and experience.

Feminism ought to mean freedom of choice and opportunities to that of men.

However, I don't identify as being feminist because my choices have been denigrated by women identifying as being feminists because I'm not choosing what they wanted me to.

I'm for equal rights to choose, whether that be a traditional role (as I have, but never thought I would) or not. I certainly don't agree with man bashing or disrespecting the rights of those of us who have chosen not to do it all (as my mum fought for and did).

The only people who have ever disrespected my choices are other women, not men! The only people putting emphasis on my physical appearance is women, not men.

We are out own worst enemies.

Agh, I'm getting wound up by another thread, so wasn't going to give this one headspace, but I just can't help myself.

OP, you are a goady fucker.

My DGM was a feminist, she didn't know it, but she was, so was DGF in a way. When DGF came home each week with his wages, she took the lions share for housekeeping, he was permitted an allowance to spend on himself, because both DGM and DGF knew that his wages were family money, not "his" money. That arrangement was pretty rare in those days, she knew plenty of other mums who lived in poverty while their husbands spend their wages on beer.

It's not anti-feminist to want to be a SAHM, but for it to work you need a husband who will treat you as an equal partner and appreciate the contribution you make to family life so that he can earn the family money. See there's that word again "equal".

FYI, if you go round telling people on dates that you don't like the idea of equality in the home, it's unlikely you'll find a man who is prepared to treat you as an equal and you'll soon find yourself resentful of being a second class citizen in your own home.

Equality isn't about trying to be the same or doing everything the same, it's about fairness and balancing power. We can rejoice in our femininity and still be feminists. I'm proud to be a woman, I think women are great, I also like men, I think they're great. I just want women to be treated equally in terms of pay, politics, the law and society. I don't want women's issues to be marginal, we make up 52% of the population, so why are women's issues not mainstream?

The only people putting emphasis on my physical appearance is women, not men.

Joy I may be confusing you with another poster, but I thought that you had suffered abuse and assault by men.

Didactylos I've never heard of that programme before! How very interesting, i'm going to go around gender guessing people now

Are you finding your vote too arduous, OP?

I startled DS by cackling really loudly at this thread. I could tell by the very first post it would not go prettily Had to laugh at the presumption that I, Ms Slattern 2015, am preternaturally suited to doing housework - well I suppose at least I don't run the risk of catching my penis in the vacuum cleaner...

No, men and women are not the same as each other, that's a given. Not all MEN are the same as other men either, actually. Women ditto. People are really quite individual, surprisingly. They come in all shapes, sizes, colours and abilities. Which is rather nice, for the most part. However, if you start saying "because someone is [insert condition] they must be good/not so good at [insert activity]" you're on shaky ground. The person should be taken on what they can do, not on historical views of what they should be expected to be able to do, and even less on what they should be expected to want to do (ghastly thought).

You have said that women taking time out to have children should be paid less because they have, well, taken time out - but why do you assume that the time out will necessarily render them a less effective employee? Doesn't stand to reason at all; it depends on loads of factors, not least the nature of the job, the ability of the individual and how long she had out of the workplace. I had one spell of maternity leave that was only three months - how much vital experience did I miss out on, in your judgement?

"I don't identify as being feminist because my choices have been denigrated by women identifying as being feminists because I'm not choosing what they wanted me to."

There are LOADS of things I do/think that various other people who may/may not call themselves feminists might say aren't 'feminist'. I'm fine with that. I'm still a feminist. I don't see it as having many defined tenets, aside from wanting equality, and there usually tends to be a 'fucked off about certain things being unfair to women' aspect. If there's a popular 'feminist' viewpoint I strongly disagree with, I see it as an interesting area to explore and sometimes end up changing my mind. Or just decide that lots of people are wrong and I'm right.

Hooty I was trying to work out what to write and now I don't need to because you have nailed it with the above post.
OP is either goody or ridiculously naive to think she's achieving everything she does without standing on the shoulders of some very impressive, courageous women.
I am with a feminist male partner, it was one of the first things that really stood out about him. He wouldn't have called himself a feminist back then but he was.
OP remember this thread when you have 2 youngsters, are run ragged cleaning and tidying the house as well as cooking for the man of the house. Unless you're lucky enough to marry a feminist man you're gong to be pretty miserable at some point in the future.

Jeremy, I know you're at a loose end without Top Gear, but can't you find something better to do?

I haven't read much literature and I'm not academic but I can see, feel and hear. I was also brought up in a very traditional family and saw my mother turn into a woman full of anger, pain and resentment. My father went to work, that was his role basically and what an almost god like noble thing that was to do. My mother however, cooked, cleaned and brought up 3 children single-handedly. If she expressed a bit of upset was told to stop "nagging".

A poster above has just summed up what feminism means to me, which is about fairness and balancing of power.

Joy I may be confusing you with another poster, but I thought that you had suffered abuse and assault by men

I was raped by a previous partner which has nothing to do with physical appearance and everything to do with his power and control over me.

I don't wear makeup or do heels, fashion etc. The only people who have commented are other women.

No man has ever put down my choices. Plenty of women have

I don't identify as being feminist because my choices have been denigrated by women identifying as being feminists because I'm not choosing what they wanted me to.

That doesn't mean you're not a feminist though it just means you're rather a contrary one...

I identify as left wing, if I were criticised by other left-wingers, it wouldn't change anything.

Ah but you have just hit the nail on the head there Joysmum. Power and control. This is what it's all about isn't it.

I'm sorry to hear that, Joy. There's a no make up thread on FWR right now which you might like?

I think Joy the point was more that you said that the 'only people who had ever disrespected your choices were women'. Sexual assault is a massive disrespect, indeed an over-riding, of choice. I'd be surprised if a woman had ever done that to you, although it does happen.

Needa

Have some schools already broken up?

A hand-hold for Joy from another person who was raped, under very different circumstances though.

Oh totally PrettyFeet

All I know is that no man has ever accused me of living off my husband or have never said I ought to change my appearance.

Look at all the women's magazines. I've never bought them nor wanted to buy into that way.

On the other hand I have friends who have wanted to have no kids, or kids but work full time, or kids and work part time...all of us have our choices put down by other women but not a peep from men!

I think men are far more successful feminists than women are

I just would like to see equality where women either question men the same way as I've been or, better still, lay off.

There you go (yes I'm bored) your choice to be able to do your job and get paid equally for it, do you think that was a gift from the tooth fairy? Nope, campaigned for and struggled for by, oh, let me think. And are you considering voting? Oh yep them pesky feminists.
But still, either incredibly naive or gf. Only time will tell.

I'd be surprised if a woman had ever done that to you, although it does happen

You see it as rape by a man, I see it as rape by an utter cunt!

Women try to control my choices in my daily life, I've been raped by one utter cunt, one. I won't extraolate to what 'men' are like because it's not relevant.

I'm a feminist and disagree with feminists ALL THE TIME. Feminists support other women, fight for equality, fight against patriarchy and VAW and campaign for women & girls to have total autonomy over their lives and bodies. But that leaves plenty for us to disagree about as Feminism Chat shows.