The crying and the begging....

[Toastandstrawberryjam]

Sorry can't link to previous posts but DH moved out a month ago today. After years of EA I finally saw the light. He wanted it to be temporary and I thought there was a slim chance of that.

He was distraught when he left, crying, pleading. It was torture seeing him like that.

He was like it the first two weeks even in front of the DC. Then he seemed to get better. Tonight he was much worse. Holding onto ME at the front door and crying. He even asked if he could take my jumper with him as it smelled of me and he could take it to bed with him.

I'm not sure if he's genuinely upset or if this is all a big act. He's seeing a counsellor who keeps telling him our marriage is fixable. I don't think this is helping. He's lost a lot of weight in the month, he looks ill and exhausted and I am so sad.

I don't know how to help him deal with this. The only thing he wants is for me to tell him to come back and I just can't do that.

I suspect the problem is that toast has been ground down until she can't see that she really does have the right to tell him to fuck off and stay fucked off. That his needs now do not matter.

yes, Im cheering on the sidelines here that, given the history from childhood and 20 years of this, that she has got him out the door and the children are confident enough in her that they feel able to cheer.

But it does show that they really dont want to see him - let THEM be the deciders here - dont do what you think is right and fair for him, do what is right and fair for them - ASK THEM what they want and go from here. Yes he will do the sad dog face, but I bet you he never did the sad dog face when he effectively ignored them for the last 17 years.

His behaviour in front of them finally gave you the incentive to move forward on this, for their sakes more thatn anything else, to stop them making the same kind of mistakes that led you to where you are now. So for them, let them guide you on how much they want, or dont want, to see him. As others said, at their age a court would not make them see him if they said they didnt want to - they are old enough to decide when and how. The important thing is that contact is for them, not him. He may want to see them, much like he may want you to let him move back in, but there is not a court in the land which would say that you have to accomodate either of those desires if you, nor the kids, say they dont want that.

You are taking steps. Every little standing up to him is a big positive.

You're doing great in many ways Toast. Love your inner dialogue, so full of fire. In time it will find its way out and hit him smack in the face.

Seems to me that DC know you have split up and they would like your home with them to be yours and theirs. Not their father's. His constant presence and efforts to reintegrate are imposed, confusing and upsetting. No-one has any choice any more once he has set foot through your door. He destroys the sense of sanctuary with you that I think DC might be yearning for.

They sense - albeit without understanding - a lot more than you would like them to about the dynamics of your relationship with stbxh. Your continued state of being in a relationship with him is grating on their sixth sense. In actuality what they see is that stbxh is more present than ever and ruling the roost as much as ever. They are also witnessing him pry through all your stuff, sniff your undies drawer or whatever else he desecrates while he has the run of your space.

What Thumbwitch said was very right. Time for this appeasement shit to drive you mad enough to stop it!

AlternativeTentacles Sat 07-Mar-15 21:49:59

You arent going to change anything are you?

What did you want exactly from this thread?

STFU. It's a learning process. Particularly when you have spent your entire fertile life being abused. This sort of post is not helpful and nothing but judgemental.

Been following without posting until now.

Toast, you say you really thought he might not go. Take pp's advice (at least I think they've posted this advice in this thread) - stop letting him in and change the locks, or at least change the backdoor lock and use the backdoor only from now on, and have a permanent bolt on the front so he has no way of getting in. Prevention is better than cure.

Of course, you have to actually stop inviting him in for this to work. I understand that you feel like you have to let him in when he swans in - you don't.

STFU. It's a learning process. Particularly when you have spent your entire fertile life being abused. This sort of post is not helpful and nothing but judgemental

Shut yourself up. She IS allowed to not want to change anything. If that is the case, there is no point everyone going on about making changes, perhaps she just wants to document everything? Who knows.

Please don't argue on here. Of course I want to change things, that's why I'm on here asking for advice. I know I'm not dealing with things as quickly and well as I should. I struggle with my failure about that as well. I am messing this up out of some misguided sense of trying to do the right thing, I have spent a very long time trying to keep him happy and it's ingrained in me. So I'm trying to change my mindset whilst making big life changes and it's hard. I'm not whining about it, but it is! It would be much easier to appease him and my mother and his family and let him back but I refuse to do that.

What he underestimated and never realised, is that the DC and I were a unit in ourselves. He fully expected (and has admitted) that when he left he thought a day or so later I would beg him to come back. That I would need him for some reason and not be able to cope. After all, he has told me that for 23 years. He has suddenly realised I can cope and this is what he is crying about, the realisation that I don't need him. Which is what he loved most from the relationship.

He also realised every little thing he did broke the way I felt a little more. Which is why I can now look at him and feel nothing, not coming home from work when a 2 year old DD had her first asthma attack and needed to go to hospital, laughing at me in the shower and telling me I looked like a concentration camp inmate when I had an eating disorder, running his finger on the top of the door frames to check for dust on housework day. He never realised I would have a mind of my own and one day finally woman up and use it.

I worry that by letting him in I am subconciously trying to keep showing him I can cope. Whether that's like a small child showing how clever they are, or because I'm trying to hurt him, I'm not sure. But I really think it's more that I'm just so weak still. He says I'm doing x and I automatically say yes.

He's restarted his hobby today, this will make a huge difference because it will potentially take up his whole weekends. I think he will really focus on it as he has always wanted to, thereby meaning less time to see the DC.

Had a long chat with eldest last night. She said dad is really sad. I reiterated that she is not responsible for anybody else's happiness. I asked her what she wanted, did she want to see him more, less, at all. She said she hates the situation and the weirdness of it all. But doesn't want him back. It's very difficult for her to deal with all of this as she has a lot of Asperger like traits (he would never admit this). She struggles with change and lack of routine. But what I'm realising is some of her behaviours, the tics etc, have lessened a lot. I just need to be really careful to make things seem safe for her. She wants to be able to see him.

"I know I'm not dealing with things as quickly and as well as I should"

Who gives the timescale for this then? You're doing great, you're doing your best, you've taken the BIGGEST step and you are a superstar!

So today, please have a be kind to yourself day. Have a day of not thinking what you've not done, have a day of how far you've come.

Toast, write a list of all the things he said and did to you over the years, read it back to yourself and then write the email setting some boundaries. I think you will feel so much better if you just do it.

I say that as as an over-thinking people pleaser, btw.; I spent years in a relationship with an arsey, unkind boyfriend and struggled to leave because of all the tears and devastation - but at some point, the only thing to do is be firm. Stop waiting for him to get it, and start saying no. It's such a great feeling to be proactive and unmoved by all the manipulation.

You sound lovely; kind and considerate, but it's time to take charge of this mess and stop letting him infiltrate your lives like this.

You are NOT failing.

Don't feel bad about not immediately acting Toast - you're only human and it's in our (most people's) nature to try and do the right thing. However, that's not always the best path to take nor right for all concerned.

Sit your Dd's down asap and ask them what they actually want - explain in an age appropriate way that their dad can't keep popping in whenever he feels (say it's upsetting to you, it's not good for the mood in the house, or whatever) - . Have it all planned out, with the girls agreement - Then inform him. He needs to know it's non negotiable - Only the girls can change or add days/times agreed. They and he can call each other if they want to.
He really has to look at himself for why they don't want to spend time with him, he has brought this on himself but with hard work on his part - he can possibly fix his relationship with them and part of that is NOT to force them into contact that they currently don't want.

As for him coming for dinner - Who the actual fuck does he think he is?
He lost all rights to be part of family life when he decided to abuse you and treat his daughters like shite. Family dinner is for the people that live in the house - not for the uninvited and unwanted.

Now that you are aware of what you may subconsciously be doing you can take steps to change it. I'd personally jump right in and say to myself
''FUCK YOU subconscious!''
You don't need to prove anything to him, with the exception of showing him that you won't put up with his shit anymore.
Good about his hobby but don't put your money on that alone keeping him away - he'll just find something else to fuck with you and make his presence and control felt.
You ARE strong Toast - you ended it, got him out, you haven't bowed to his crying and begging.... There's just a little bit further to go now to get the peace and freedom that you so much deserve. You can do this, you owe him nothing.
Take care.

You were manipulated into having him over for dinner, you didn't invite him. He told your children he was staying in order to force you into a position where you'd have to openly challenge him and run the risk of a full-on argument and/or weeping and wailing routine in front of them.

So. The trick now is to avoid getting into that position again, and the easiest way to ensure that (which is in the best interests of you and your children) is not to have him inside the house.

There is every risk every act of kindness will end up being flung back at you - e.g. he decides that you want to make another go of it because you 'invited' him to stay for dinner. He absolutely will manipulate the facts to suit his own ends.

Please see the symbolic value of starting to make changes to the dead interior of your house. It is not his space any more. You don't have to clean it to operating theatre standards, you don't have to keep it free of all personal effects any more. Start to take back your sense of self - it will help you stand up to him more.

All that said, you are doing amazingly well given most if not all of your life has been spent being taught that your only function is to please your abusers. If his hobby is starting today does that mean you have a day free of him? Can you and the kids plan something great to do together? If nothing else, pop to the nearest big supermarket and choose some new soft furnishings that you like, a cushion or a candle or a mirror or picture frame.

Great posts from you Toast. You're showing some great insights into yourself, which, do you know, just SHOWS that you are doing really really well with all of this. Your mind is working, and you are taking huge steps forward in your understanding and your abilities to break free.

What I and other posters are trying to do is help you choose your next step, I suppose - your next step among the many that you are taking by yourself - which is to keep him out of your home.

You say you think you're letting him in to show him that you're still coping - ok, it's an idea - but in fact all you're doing is letting him in to mark his territory still. You don't want to spend money on it - you don't want to change the decor because you don't want to imprint anything of you on it - all he will see is "ah yes, everything is still as I ordered it to be".

It's entirely up to you what you do in there now. If you want to change it, paint it, put up pictures/curtains, have throws, cushions, wall-hangings (portable so you can take them with you), then YOU CAN. This requires neither his permission nor his approval - in fact he doesn't need to even know, or see, what you are doing.

You know you respond to him as "child". Time to stop that now. Time to grow up and stay in "adult" mode when he's around - that means telling him to fuck off. Adults are allowed to say "fuck off" remember - use it on him! Mentally practise. In fact, have a post-it with "FUCK OFF H's NAME!" written on it and put it on the mirror or somewhere you see it every day. Put it on the front door! On the inside, so you see it before you open it.

Bolts on the external doors - stop him entering without your permission - then withdraw that permission and tell him to FUCK OFF.

I'm repeating myself deliberately, by the way to try and embed the suggestion!

I am listening :)

He had told the DC that he and his dad would have dinner here tonight. His dad is being lovely to me and the girls so I don't want to spoil that being as he is now the only grandparent they have. The plan was he would come at 5.30. Go straight after dinner (would have his dad with him so no lingering). This morning he texted to ask if they could come at 4 instead. I thought very hard and sent this. Not ideal but the DC are expecting him to come now. "4 is a bit early but actually ties in with my plans. I will take middle DC to her hobby that she doesn't get to go to v often at 4 and you can cook dinner with the other 2. We will be home at 5.30"

We have next weeks arrangements in place. He tried to organise Mother's Day for me (!) but I've told him to back off. Again I'm very sad he no longer has a mother and yes I'm the mother of his children but he should have been a bit nicer to me!

This afternoons plan is to put some photos in frames upstairs. The frames just have generic arty prints in at the moment. Little things at first. Baby steps almost.

Well done Toast just keep on putting those boundaries in place.

Can you perhaps speak to his dad alone? Tell him that on this occasion they are coming together out of STBXH's presumptions but this will be the last time. Of course GD is welcome ^If you want him to be^ another time, or to take them out with STBXH - but STBXH will not be invited or able to invite into your home.

OK. So he's told the girls, and by implication, you, What Is Going To Happen. And so it is happening. He's tried to force you to see him earlier - and you've agreed to let him, although you've tried to mitigate it by not being there.

But.

If he and his father are now preparing the meal, then they could jolly well have done it at FIL's house. The DDs could have gone there.

You've taken a baby step by refusing to accept his diktats entirely; now build on it. Next time say No.

And yes, do the pictures. :)

So once again he used the technique of telling the children first to make it hard for you to challenge the plan. Plus threw in his dad as an extra piece of manipulation. You are quite capable of inviting his dad to your house without his intervention - and you should do this to make the point.

He will push you to a place where you have to confront him directly to get this to stop. I can appreciate why you don't want to do so when it involves his dad, but he has anticipated this and will keep making it harder. You won't want to do it about Mother's Day. You won't want to do it around birthdays, near to exams, etc.

Did he ever do any cooking in your house before? I can imagine him doing the occasional bit of gourmet cooking, making a huge mess and going on about it forever. I'd imagine he will deliberately cook something you don't like.

It's good that you've not just rolled over for his plans - although a better challenge would have been '4pm is not convenient. We agreed 5:30' (even though I don't think you did 'agree' this, it was just what he stated yesterday). Is his dad going to try to intervene and pressure you into having him back? Honestly, if you fear this, at least switch the venue to a restaurant so there are fewer opportunities for private conversation.

Oh no, his dad is almost entirely on my side interestingly enough!

He used to cook a lot. Which is something I know he misses. The food is in the fridge to cook, it's the DCs favourite meal so I don't think he will change it.

Yes I know saying no would have been better. But this way he doesn't get to see me. Will be interesting if he reverts back to 5.30 after all.

I can just see his face on reading that message :0

Good for you, this too is a baby step. X

Toast I remember lots of your threads, and I think you are doing great.

I'm a bit of a "fuck off" type, but that's really not your way, and your way is working for you.

Small steps are good, small steps are getting you there.

You're doing great Toast, these small steps will soon mount up to miles =)

But be cautious. IME he's trying to play "happy families" in the hope this will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Having his Dad there tonight will bolster HIM, not you. Even though your FIL seems to be on your side, he is still your husband's father.

Could you arrange for a friend to "conveniently" drop by right about the time you expect him to be leaving?

Love the idea of the photos. I want you to get excited about furnishing your home with your own bits and bats.
Agree he is still telling you what is going to be happening in your home, and that is not ideal, but at least you won't be there.
I can absolutely imagine how you feel once he is there in the house, in front of the children. Last time I let my son's dad in
( trying to do the "right thing" for ds,) he didn't leave when he was supposed to, and basically laughed in my face at my obvious discomfort. I ended up sitting in the car, waiting for him to go , which made me " mad" apparently.
That reminded me not to give an inch. In a split with a reasonable person, one who is not an unreasonable narcissist, you can invite them in to collect children, or even spend certain family occasions with them. Everyone respects the boundaries.
Not in my case, and not in yours.
There is no point trying to do the right thing, according to the rules of decorum that you naturally adhere to as a sane person. Your advantage is that you know your enemy really well. He expects you to capitulate.
He tell you he is coming, he invites people to your house, and expects you to accept it. Your knowledge of how he thinks is your best weapon.
I think that next time he tries this, you should tell him by email, or text, that he cannot tell you what will be happening through the children,he must arrange it with you, and that he is not to use the housefor his contact visits.
I really want you to get the abuse on record, with womens aid or the police (not sure how this is done but others on here do)just because I think it will help with a) ceasing to keep his nasty little secret, and b) the divorce and c)justifying to yourself that you have every right to never have to deal with this arsehole.
You are doing great, and will keep getting stronger the less he invades your space, he stronger you will become.