Terrible situation with pil

[backdatednamechange]

I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

Sorry I didn't mean I wanted to counsel him, just try and help relieve his guilt. I can't shut him down when he comes to me.

Can I really stop them having contact with the children? I think it would break DH's heart and if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't allow it. And if we divorced, which I am scared this level of conflict could lead us to, they will see the kids anyway. Wouldn't it be better to have it in my terms under my supervision? And a rare occurrence?

Also I dont insist on involving myself...

We have barely discussed them this past 3 months. But DH wanted to talk to me the other night.

Frances that is a terrible story. Brilliant that you have rid yourself of so many different cancers

Haven't had a chance to read right through but I would back right awAy from the in-laws. Let DH take the DCs for a visit if he's insistent; you don't need to be involved. Added bonus that DZh would also have to step up.

Poor you

I agree, dh can organise contact with parents and gc. Why should it fall to the wife anyway?

They're his parents, they're vile, he can deal with them.

He can be the one to organise contact and I won't block it.

But they will not be visiting without me, they are 2.2 and 8 months. And pil are 4 hours away. And they do not have the kids best interests at heart and right now DH isn't brave enough to support the children.

If they suggest visiting us which I doubt, we will figure it out then and I'll probably be asking mumsnet!

backdated - to try and sort this out short term, I would say that DH can't take them away to his parents, his parents can come to you to see them and you will meet up with them at a neutral location, NOT in your home.

This puts the ball back in their court, and the onus on THEM to visit their DGC. You are not blocking them from seeing the DGC, but you are restricting how it will be achieved - and then it's their choice if they make the effort or not.

I would not, under any circumstances short of their funerals, be visiting them again, certainly not to stay.

Sorry, didn't mean to say "you will meet up with them" I meant "HE will meet up with them at a neutral location (with the DGC)". Obviously I believe that you shouldn't bother to see them again, as there is no point putting yourself through that.

I wouldn't have my young children going 4 hours away tbh. Your pil would have to come to you & stay in a hotel where DH could take the children to see them.
I would let DH do all the hotel arranging & contact. You'll find that it will be so much hassle that they won't come down that often.
Just wash your hands of them, they're no longer your problem & you don't have to be sucked into their world any more.

"Can I really stop them having contact with the children? I think it would break DH's heart and if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't allow it. And if we divorced, which I am scared this level of conflict could lead us to, they will see the kids anyway. Wouldn't it be better to have it in my terms under my supervision? And a rare occurrence"

Grandparents in this country have no automatic rights of access to see their grandchildren.

These thoughts of ,"it will break DH's heart if the shoe was on the other foot" are wrong because this is his toxic family of origin here, not yours. You're also thinking like that because at heart you are a kind and decent person; you are dealing with his parents here who are patently not reasonable and never will be.

They are your DHs parents, he can have a relationship if he wants to but that does not follow that you or your children have to fall in behind.

If his parents are too toxic for you to deal with, they are certainly too toxic for your vulnerable and defenceless children. It will do these children no favours at all to see their own parents get so denigrated and disrespected constantly by their nan and granddad. Why subject your children at all to his parents when you as their mother have been abused by them as well?. You only have to look at your H to see the sort of damage they have inflicted on him, they will do similar to your children. They have to be protected from their malign influence.

Backdated, you really, really need to take a step back and not become involved in anything that has to do with your PIL. Support your DH, by all means, and give him advice on what to say and how to behave if he asks for it. But you need to get some emotional distance. You shouldn't cry because your PILs say nasty things about you - you should be angry. And then allow it to slide off your back.

I think your children might see their GP ONLY if your DP ensured that they would be protected. Or you could go too, but make it very clear that you would not tolerate the LEAST disrespect towards you and your children. And detach, detach, detach. The only reason you have remotely anything to do with these people is because of your DH.

I have been in a similar position with pil. My pil have an amazing toxic family dynamic (which comes from fil; as his family that moved to Oz 40 + years ago have the same one) they have a drama triangle dynamic. Hubby is the golden boy on a pedestal who can do no wrong, hubby and sil hate each other, sil is perculiarly venomous but pil idolise and enable her every whim and I am the scapegoat (as I am not family? Only married in).
My fil knows exactly what I think of him, as I very eloquently told him when he decided to blame me for all the ills of the world, for my hubby's breakdown depression and ptsd, all my hubby's bad behaviour is my fault as I am the worst wife etc (it was hubby's health issues that let fil think he had more say in our lives than he actually does) I won't go into all the vile stuff he spouted... oh and i'm making up my son's problems as i'm just a cr@p mother (my son has diagnosed adhd, dyspraxia and autism but the dr's know nothing and I must have lied to them) I favour my other son etc (way too much vile chauvinist cr@p to go into) if he didn't like it (or my sil didn't like it, as she's a chip off the old block) I caused it or it was my fault. There are just too many issues including background, up bringing, education. Unfortunately my eldest son idolises his grandad.

My advise, how I have managed is:-
They won't change - so the situation won't change unless something else changes.
My husbands view of his family won't change at the moment cos of his issues.
It's not me, it's them but i am the only one that can change the situation because I am the only one who can see what is going on... so by not playing the game (can be hard). By putting in healthy boundaries!!! Pick one and put them in slowly... no one will notice usually but may whinge if it doesn't suit them. Stand your ground and don't rise to the bait, think of every scenario and workout what the healthiest outcome is for you and your family
I limit mine and my sons contact with pil. We do see them but I never encourage it.
All contact is now made by hubby. I have never said this to anyone but it's up to him to phone, buy presents etc it is his reponsibility so they tend to call us now. Any requests come from hubby so they don't just say it's me being awkward and ignore what's asked.
They come to us. They don't stay and we don't stay with them.
Fil and i are in a holding pattern. Although he doesn't agree with how I see him... I see him for the man he is and I watch my back at all times. I do occasionally speak to mil about hubby's health. I trust neither of them. I behave in a friendly and respectful manner for the few hours we see them but I keep them at a distance (pretend they are just acquaintances, not friends/family).

It gets easier but it takes time

Belagh, I can relate to what you're saying there. When MIL' s SIL of over 60 years died, her comment was, "Well, it's not like she's proper family!"
When I was pregnant with my eldest, my MIL phoned to tell me how useless I was, & what a bad mother I'd be. When I disagreed, she slammed the phone down. About a week before the birth, I got a whining phone call about how she wanted to see her grandchild & how she'd had everyone at church praying for her! priceless Anyway, I resumed contact as I wanted my DC to have a grandmother. This allowed her, when she felt like it, to have a strip & cut contact with her gch at Christmas.
Please don't be guilt-tripped into keeping contact for the children. MIL won't change & in my experience, I could kick myself for giving her the chance to cause even more hurt.

Strop, not strip eugh, pass the brain bleach please

namechange how are you?

Thank you for asking Frances, I am doing well.

We are away at the moment and the negative contact from pil has ramped up. Fil sent DH an email saying he was passive aggressive, with a link included.

He then sent an email detailing how DH is "evil incarnate" with a full description, pictures etc. DH thinks he was trying to be funny but didn't take it that way. I think he seems unhinged!

Anyway I was asleep for the last one and DH took the opportunity to call Fil. And told him quite a lot! That he is sick of the little emails and messages. That fil should be proud of him and all his achievements. That of course he has changed over the course of 8 years, parenting, a career, responsibilities, and bereavement, and that's a normal, positive thing. Told fil that he needs to respect his (dh's) wife and family, that the way they treated me was wrong.

More stuff too but I can't remember as it was second hand. But DH was so proud of himself for finally confronting fil and starting to change things, and I am too. As a result we are getting on better than ever as I feel he is starting to commit to me and put our family first.

Pil haven't been in touch since, and that was 2 nights ago now.
I have warned DH that a heart problem or other health issue / crisis might rear its ugly head soon.

As with my MIL & her poison pen letters, your FIL writes poison pen emails. What right do they think they have to do that? Why are social norms of behaviour suspended to allow their unacceptable behaviour? They seem to think that the rules don't apply to them!
Anyway, I hope that you have a better holiday than last time & get a bit of a rest!

wow.

That was one hell of a difficult thing for Mr Backdated to do. Huge kudos to him.

Positive for you both!

"You really do need stronger boundaries with regards to your H exposing you to their bile"

You should not ask what they are talking about, read any emails etc as it will always be negative bait and will cause issues.

You have done well with 4 months physical NC - but now you also must step away from the rest of it.

You cant support your DH - maybe your involvement is the release that is in fact enabling the dynamic? - he needs to develop his new normal with his PIL that does nor involve you.

I was involved with narc alcoholic PIL for far too long - now stepped way NC - and also do not discuss anything that DH is up to with them - his issues - not to be brought to the marriage.

I didn't ask what they were talking about and never raise the topic.

I woke up that morning and DH told me the lot unprompted. He was very proud of himself and I wasn't going to shut that down. And if he needs an outlet I'm ok with listening.

He is deciding what to say and when. I'm having no involvement at all other than to listen if that's what DH wants. We are a team and if he wants my support he will have it. I've been so eager for him to get to this point, I'm not withdrawing now.

Good for you NameChange!

That's great news backdated, I 'm guessing it will feel a little like 2 sr
Temps forward 1 step back at times but its real progress. Good on you and your dh, I can't imagine what it would be like to have people like this in your life.

And any time anyone (ie his family) have a go at you for depriving your children of their grandparents, your children do not need people like this in their lives, they need kind, supportive, loving and caring people, not spiteful toads!

Would again appreciate some advice!

Things are stagnant, not much has happened since we got home.

Today dh found out his gran is dying, with anything from 2 weeks to 2 months to live.

He wants to go up there (fine, I can cope with the expense and loss of salary)
He wants us all to go up there to see her (not sure, fine if we stay in a hotel? But I don't want to raise this at this time, plus we have no money)
And he wants us all to go to the funeral. (I want to support him but don't want to see his parents, and I don't want to take the kids to a funeral anyway. Again can't afford hotels etc.)

I would really appreciate some advice and strength from you wise mumsnetters once again please!

Woah....I had to stop halfway through your first post on this thread. This is a very toxic relationship you have with your inlaws.

I think you need to put a BIG WIDE BERTH between yourself and your inlaws. Really, your relationship with them needs to be reset. You know how strangers are cautious and polite and in some respects, more considerate? This is how your inlaws need to behave to start healthy again.

Take some control and stop seeing them. Learn to say NO. If it is going to stress you out, no, it's not worth a relationship to have. Keep it superficial. Let your dh have his time with them - it DOES NOT - I reiterate - have to involve you. You don't have to visit them. If they can't be nice, it's totally off the table.

BTW - How DARE his FIL tell you the mother of your child what to do with your child's shoes. He can fuck right off. I know you can't say it to his face fuck off but actions are much louder than words.

Please take some control back.
Don't answer the phone to his inlaws and talk through in counselling or via a third party and agreed approach about what you and your dh are going to do during your next visit with your inlaws. Even if it means, planning in advance in minutae detail. So if your dh backs-tracks of what you both agreed then you are not fault.

Take care and get some control back in your life.

With regards to the funeral and dying gran.
Golden time for emotional manipulation and chance for your inlaws to try it and walk over you with an ''excuse''.

Talk it through and agree before hand with your dh on who you go and see & when, what you do, how you both react/respond. Play out the scenarios before hand. Really talk through this in detail so you can feel prepared. I know how touchy family occasions can be like. Don't agree to go - you have a choice (I know, amazeballs but you do have a choice!!) - if it stresses you and dc out too much, don't go.

If you do go, be prepared to act as a united front.

Is there anyone else that you can check with to see if his Grandmother really is as ill as all that? Were you particularly close to her? If not, I'd just stand back & let DH go. Also, I don't think that I'd be taking such young children to a funeral. Let DH go to things like that, you stay out of it. Funerals can be emotionally fraught without the added bonus of your PIL; you're better off staying away.