Terrible situation with pil

[backdatednamechange]

I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

H has just told me that his parents weren't hurtful, just irritating, and that he isn't angry.

In the meantime he gets angry at me over any little thing. Stonewalls me whenever I try to discuss things.

I am so fucking unhappy. I want him to love me, like me, respect me, and care about me. I know I'm a good wife, mother, person, and I'm sick of not being treated as such. I don't want a broken family, don't want to lose my kids to split custody.

But I am so fucking unhappy.

Please can someone talk to me.

hi backdated, I'm sorry you're so unhappy . the situation sounds so strained. have you talked again at all? did your DH ever send that email?

DH never said anything to them, and is now downplaying everything which was said. I feel like I'm being bullied into doing what he wants.

This morning is a great example. Doing breakfast for the kids (him) and DS spills something on the floor. Slips on it twice in a ten minute period. I saw the second one and asked why he was slipping. - DH tells me about the spill. So I ask "why not wipe it up so he doesn't slip, he is only 2".

Cue rage. "You live to make me miserable, everything is my fault, is there nothing you won't get at, yes this is my fault again you are right sorry sorry sorry"

It's so disproportionate and difficult to live with.

Your primary issue sweetie is your DH, the PIL situation is secondary to that. Your d'h is bullying and abusing you in the hope it pushes you back into your box so he can carry on the facade with his parents whilst all the while sacraficing you and your children in place of himself.

It's time for you to stand up for yourself to him, he will only treat you how you allow yourself to be treat. You haven't put him in the middle, your the victim in this of his family and him. He's more scared of them than he is you, he's prepared to abuse you rather than stand up for you when you did nothing wrong....are you really going to accept that? Your children are seeing how he treats mummy, and how he allows his family to treat you...that's not okay is it?

You agreed weeks ago what would happen, now he is trying to back out of that whilst bullying you into submission.

It's make or break sweetie, if you don't stand up for yourself now against him then this is how your life will be for good.

I know you are right.

How do I stand up for myself.

Talk to pil myself? Tell DH 'this' is how it's going to be and he doesn't get a say? Ultimatum? Or leave.

I just don't know.

What's in this for you? The whole lot of them sound like they have serious behavioural issues and are looking for some kind of modern day slave to adhere to their commandments. Nasty bunch.

FIL sounds like he has passed down his manipulative trait to his son.

Ok if anyone is still reading I would appreciate some advice, there has been a slight update.

DH and I are doing well, I'm in counselling, he is waiting on his first session, and we have made a real effort to be supportive and loving and an family.

I've been nc with pil for 4 months now.
Because they haven't seen the kids much (twice on skype in that time, it used to be 2/3 times a week), FIL has been sending DH unpleasant little messages, calling him spineless, saying he has betrayed him, etc. DH takes it as a joke.

DH has had the working week from hell this past week. Working out the house 6-7, more work when he comes in until at least midnight, the kids haven't seen him and I barely have. This week was also his mums birthday. He sent the cards which arrived a day late, and he bought a present online (emailed voucher) which arrived on time. Previous years I've done it for him. This was a huge amount of effort for him to get to a post office during a fry busy working day, and his mum completely understood.

Then on her actual birthday, it was the culmination of his big project with a huge presentation, meeting and lunch with his bosses and the bosses of his company.

His dad started messaging him having a go about him forgetting his mums birthday, saying he is a spineless shit and some other things. Anyway I give you this back story because DH snapped.

To me - called his dad all sorts of names, said he was sick of it, sick of being criticised for being busy, for not being respected as a grown man, for being called spineless as though I had forced him to not acknowledge his mums birthday etc. Anyway we talked about it and DH said he had had enough. When I was in the bath, DH contacted his dad and told him this. Not nastily, just that he wanted the respect he deserved and all the digs and name calling to stop. He also sent a link about the psychology behind insulting people via a 'joke' and how it's only a joke if everyone laughs.

His dad kicked off, his mum got involved, and in the argument, it was mentioned that they never see the kids any more. DH replied with " well you know why that is" and this started a row about what happened in February.

And this is the point/question of my post.

Mil said:

It wasn't us, backdated twisted everything
We can't believe she is stopping us seeing the kids (I'm not, but DH hasn't got time and I'm not doing it for them)
She doesn't appreciate you and you do so much
You aren't yourself around her
You have to tread so carefully around her
(In reference to fil reading DH ipad private messages last year) that wasn't our making, you and backdated were arguing
Please delete this message trail so no one backdated can see it

Unfortunately I was sat by DH and he was showing me the lot by this point and he wouldn't keep it from me anyway. I just cried. What do I do? I feel like there is no coming back from this and I'm gutted, they have such a misconception of me and our relationship.

I don't think you do anything. The only one who can deal with this is DH. And you must tell him that.

Just continue with NC.

I agree with chair. Do nothing. Any contact just feeds them ammunition. Your DH really needs to go NC as well and tbh I wouldn't want my DC anywhere near people who have no respect for their mum and I think I would be telling DH that.
Sounds like your DH is realising what his parents are like. The name calling from FIL is because he is losing his control over your DH

As far as I can see, your DH has stood up to the mad buggers who raised him, which is what you want.
You don't want anything to do with them, why would you?
So you go to him, give him a huge hug, tell him you understand how hard that was for him, and that you are so proud of him.
Say that you know how difficult it must be, and that you will support him.
My Mil is a narcissist, who luckily I have never met to speak to, but I live on a daily basis with the results of her behaviours and I watch her wreak havoc on other members of the family.
Your DP needs some love too, as do you. Having small children is exhausting; his father probably left it all to his wife but times have changed.
I know your DP is an idiot sometimes but a bit of compassion for the small boy who never was good enough for his father might go a long way.
( as I am writing I realise that I might sound all forgiving of his behaviour and that you should just put up with it! I don't mean that at all! I just get a feeling that you need to be kind to one another and that this is a good opportunity to do so)
When my DW is in a bad place, she shuts down and I get so incandescently angry. But then I look and see her struggling to let go of all the behaviours that protected her, that she falls back into, even though she is safe now and I try to have compassion)
Oh and who gives a toss what your Pil think? Apparently I am totally controlling of my DW. That's why she got her degree, a decent career and is a successful, much loved and respected woman! Go me!

It doesn't matter what they think of you.

Ofc they want to blame you. Their son is perfect, or was until you came along. In their minds. It is so much easier to blame you than to accept that their son might 1) have a mind of his own and 2) they might not be no1 in his life any more and can't influence them . That's a very difficult thing for many mother/parents to accept.

As the others said, he stood up to his parents at last. That's a good thing.

If they back down maybe there can be some careful relationship with them in the future. If they don't - support your husband every bit of the way.

So you go to him, give him a huge hug, tell him you understand how hard that was for him, and that you are so proud of him.

this

You are the scapegoat for his parents poor relationship with their son, just continue to ignore them, it really is that simple. In addition, you really do need stronger boundaries with regards to your H exposing you to their bile. You know they don't like you and that they will spew bile given any opportunity, so while the hell did you sit and listen to it? Your H is responsible for the relationship he has with his parents and supporting him doesn't include being exposed to their crap.

The only thing you can and should be doing, is working on better detachment. Which means continuing to limit your exposure to them and accepting that their behaviour is a reaction to losing some of the unhealthy grip they have on their son and has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Whenever you feel being reeled back intto the drama, just start singing the theme tune to Disney's Frozen.

I'm in an incredibly similar position, OP. Just slightly down the line. PIL is notoriously controlling and treats DH like a little boy. DH has always wanted his approval but scared of getting on the wrong side of him. When we married, PIL expected the same degree of intimacy with DH and control of us both. I resisted and this caused nuclear damage in the marriage with DH eventually agreeing that PIL needed to back off. His emotions were all over the show though. Years of very abusive, threatening texts, emails and phone calls from his brothers about what he's doing to their parents. PIL decided pretty much immediately that this was all my fault and used the same approach you're experiencing - they're just concerned because their little boy is being abused by a controlling woman. They expected a huge amount of input into our personal struggles and unfortunately at the very beginning, DH gave this to them. All this was seven years ago. We both had counselling, individually and together (spent thousands) and came through so, so much heartache. DH tried and failed with his parents repeatedly. There were a few boundaries they needed to observe before we would have relationship with them - not criticising me to DH, not talking about us to others. They would instantly agree to them all and then fail to keep them. The birth of our DD (4 years ago) was a showdown and they have only seen her twice, both when she was less than a month old. A few weeks ago, we went halfway across the world to work in an orphanage for six weeks. I stupidly tried to reach out to PIL by putting her in contact with the leader of the orphanage (she's rich and likes charities). As a result of something that was said by PIL, DH was taken aside by one of the orphanage directors and informed that his wife was psychotic. We were told not to return to the orphanage. Didn't even say goodbye to the children. Our work had been perfect up to that point. This confirmed that we were right to distance ourselves from PIL and not allow them access to our children. It's very frustrating and sad for us, especially DH, who feels like less of a man because he couldn't resolve this situation. You are not alone, by any means.

Sorry I got so mixed up with my abbreviations :)

As a result of something that was said by PIL, DH was taken aside by one of the orphanage directors and informed that his wife was psychotic. We were told not to return to the orphanage. Didn't even say goodbye to the children. Our work had been perfect up to that point.

God how very, very sad.

I've just reported your last post for you, Backdated, cos you've done another NC fail. Best you report it too!

The one thing I really wanted to say to you as I was reading through this whole thread is that to some extent your DH isn't deliberately doing this - his parents' behaviour just precipitates him straight back into "child" mode, and he reacts as he would have done as a child instead of as an adult. I'm glad he's going to start counselling because he really needs to learn how to stay in "adult" mode when dealing with his entirely dysfunctional parents.

I would also say that even though his mother seemed like the "nice" one of the pair, she's still a facilitator, and that has become more apparent as the thread has gone on. She failed to protect her own son from his bullying father, and she continues to fail to do this. First priority as a mother, IMO, is to protect your children and she didn't. So she is and was complicit with the bullying, and therefore as guilty as him but in a covert rather than overt way.

For your DH - it will take time but I hope that he will realise how unhealthy his parents are for him, for you and eventually for your DC. It's easy to be lovely to very small children, but what about when they're 3 and 4 and starting to show their own personalities? Will they also start to be browbeaten and bullied? Chances are, yes.

As an aside, I loathe the sort of teasing you are talking about, the put downs etc., and agree with you that it's not humour, it's bullying. Trying to belittle anyone is never "funny".

Anyway - stay NC with them as much as you can, give the counselling a chance to work for your DH and in the meantime, stop thinking about them because what they think, in their nasty smallminded bullying heads, really doesn't matter. You are better than that.

Thank you all for pointing out my outing myself and getting it fixed for me.

I didn't argue with DH about this, I said I knew how hard it was for him and that I was proud of him. I just know from his reaction it's the start of a very long road. E.g. He said his mum doesn't believe those things, she is just brainwashed by his dad.

I suppose I'm upset because I feel there is no coming back from this, for me other the kids, and DH will struggle with that. I also feel like they would be happier if I wasnt in his life. It's alien to me how happy they are to denigrate someone's wife to them!

Their timing was incredible, doing this the day of a huge stressful work week ending, and 6 hours before we were due to go abroad. Which we did anyway holding hands and without arguing, something they wouldn't believe.

We have agreed DH will visit them on his own in future, scheduled for later this year. Which is very scary for me as if they are happy to stay that rubbish over messaging, what on earth will it be like in person after a few drinks! I still feel like it's a choice between them or me (in his head) and that I will lose.

This accepting that their behaviour is a reaction to losing some of the unhealthy grip they have on their son has stuck a chord. Because he is breaking away a bit now even after being in their pockets while married, and they can't accept it so it is easier to blame me. They can't accept that he might not like their behaviour, or he might not want to expose our kids to it, or that his mums birthday isn't that important to him. So it must be my fault! I need to remember that. I'm ok with being a scapegoat. And if I can explain it to DH, so much the better.

He said he was going to at some point tell his mum how wonderful I am can be how I was the reason they had birthday cards and gifts, regular skype, lots of planned visits. That it has stopped because of their actions to me. And that they are out of order criticising me to him.

Do you think that is a good thing to do or dangerous? He said he is sick of them having this bad impression of me. That if he is different that that's what 7 years out of the childhood home, work, parenting and bereavement do to a person.

Thumb, you are totally right about his mum, and DH can't see it yet. He knows though "she will never go against my dad" not even to protect him. She defended his dad's actions for everything. Her stock reply was "that's just your dad he loves you son". It's going to be difficult and sad for DH to accept that.

Thank god for mumsnet as ever because when I am confused and unsure about the best course of actuon, you remind me to be strong and that nc isn't only ok, it's the best thing for our family. I will leave the doors open for DH to try to change things, but he may not be able to and I accept that. I will never make my children feel as I see him feeling. He was an upset, angry little boy the other night.

And he didn't share it with me because I control or force him, I think he shared it because we are equal partners and he knows I love and help him. And his parents can't stand that.

Saturn - your story is so sad. What a testament to your love and relationship with each other that you and DH came through it. I hope we will be able to do the same.

GAAAAAH

backdated - I think it is a bad idea to tell them anything about you or what you do in the marriage, tbh. They are already painting you as a controlling narcissist, your DH telling them that you "controlled" the cards/presents etc. will only reinforce all of that for them, because that's how they'll interpret it.

Basically, there IS no "win" for you with them. The only "win" will be when your DH sees them as they really are (and that won't be a "win" for him, sadly :( ) and realises that they are not a healthy addition to your family.

As your DH pulls away, tell him to beware of the "sudden heart/health problem" that is highly likely to manifest as a result. Standard abusive/narc parent behaviour - use extreme emotional blackmail to haul the escapee back into the cage. If you warn him that it's likely to happen, and it does happen, it will be another eye-opener for him - if you wait until it happens, and it does happen and then you tell him, you will be the "bad guy" for not believing it until it's shown that you are right. But that could take a while, so save yourself and him the problem and warn him ahead of time.

But - again - he should NOT discuss you in ANY WAY with his parents. That topic should be off limits now, as there is NOTHING he can say that will help, however hard he tries. Anything positive he says will be misconstrued or put down to your controlling him and "telling him what to say", and him being "so under your thumb" etc., while neatly ignoring that that's what they've been doing all along btw.

You could be Kate Middleton, Jennifer Aniston and Mother Theresa all rolled into one and they'd still say unpleasant and untrue things about you because it's not you they don't like but what you represent (their diminishing unhealthy grip on their adult son).

OP seriously, you need to detach from the relationship your H has with his parents because it's not and never was, your responsibility. Don't allow yourself to be used as a buffer by your H and as a scapegoat by your PIL. He'll either stand up to them and set firm boundaries or he won't but you can not protect him from them or his lack of boundaries with them.

It isn't about you, you didn't cause this and you can't change it.

You are both right. If he mentions it again I will ask him not to say anything.

Would it be sensible for him to have a stock phrase like "please don't talk about backdated to me"?

Also, he feels terrible guilt about them not seeing the children, how could he deal with it when they mention it again?

Hmm. in that case I'd say "when you freely apologise to backdated then we know that you are ready to see the children again". Although possibly a bit inflammatory.

I'd say though that he might want to consider feeling guilty for exposing the children to people who diss you so badly. Treating you so badly is a wrong example to set for the children. They're clever little sods, they'll realise something is wrong.

Guilt, along with fear and obligation of toxic parents are but three of many damaging legacies such inadequate people do to their now adult offspring.
He needs to continue these counselling sessions and deal properly with those very real feelings.

Re Isetan;s comment:-

"OP seriously, you need to detach from the relationship your H has with his parents because it's not and never was, your responsibility. Don't allow yourself to be used as a buffer by your H and as a scapegoat by your PIL. He'll either stand up to them and set firm boundaries or he won't but you can not protect him from them or his lack of boundaries with them"

I would full concur with this response.

With regards to your children they should not be seeing the children at all as his parents have and continue to treat you as their mum and dad so abusively. It will do them no favours at all to see you as their mum and dad get so thoroughly put down and walked over.

Your job amongst many here is to protect your children from such malign influences like his parents. You only have to look at your DH to see how much their own brand parenting has affected him. Some people really should not be allowed access to their grandchildren; his are a case in point.

I can also see his parents using previously unknown health problems and scares as an attempt to bring him back into line.

I went NC with my MIL after years of abuse.
The final straw was when I had a breast lump removed & only after removal & testing were the unit able to confirm that it was benign. My MIL insisted on coming to stay, as she always did, despite the fact that with 2 small children, just had surgery & all the worry, I was an absolute wreck. She was put out because I didn't slave over her like I usually did, my then 8y o complained that grandma was shouting at mum for her cup of tea! I tried to explain that I was tired & recovering from the op & I said, "at least it was benign," to which she replied, "more's the pity."
That was it. No big drama, I just withdrew. No cards from me, no present buying, no arranging to have her/take the kids, she wasn't my problem, DH can deal with her.
When she realised, she sent an awful letter about me to my DH & her younger son wrote a letter to DH as well. They both wrote, "she has taken you away from us." I haven't, I've taken myself out of their spiral of abuse, I will not be hoovered back in & I will not allow my DCs to be either.
MIL demanded that either DH left me & returned to her, or that was it, she'd disown all of us. She did this at Xmas, to her 2 grandchildren.
Anyway, fast forward 5 years. The next lump I had & decided to leave because I was too busy & it would be nothing anyway was cancer - bless! I had a mx & more ops/treatment since & please God, I'm well & free of it. I also had a bad break during it all & ended up in a wheelchair for 3 years, (I've just got in from a walk now so I'm fine!)
I can't imagine how much more hellish the last 3 years would have been if I'd been dealing with his awful mother and her creepy younger sidekick son too.
This spring she sent DH a birthday card, so, all is not rosy in her garden then the poison ivy is starting to itch!
That's fine by me, she can do whatever she wants, because she's got nothing to do with me. I will never see her again, she will never set foot inside my house again and she will not have access to my DC.
Namechange this is not your problem.
I wasted years' worth of energy on my MIL, (who bought me a copy of, "Don't Marry Her, Fk Me," for Christmas 1 year naice )
You're not going to see your IL' s again until hell freezes over & they can walk across. You are the parent & your DC are not going to see them either. Your DH can stick a rose between his teeth & dance the sweet fandango with them if he so wishes, because they're not your problem & his relationship with them is not your problem.
They are not having contact with your DC or yourself again. End of discussion. No discussion.
Anything else doesn't concern you.
Took me years to work that one out!

He should be developing tactics and strategies with the support of his therapist, you are not qualified and are far too close to the situation to be an effective support. You and he will remain stuck in an unhealthy dynamic, if you insist on involving yourself in his relationship with his parents by acting as counsel.

LET IT GO.