Terrible situation with pil

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I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

Skyping the kids

I see. My advice is still the same.

Given that most of the advice has been for you to step back and in an ideal world if the dc were older you'd let them go on their own with dh to see the pil I think Skype is okay. If they start being horrible you can just pull the plug, or dh can. To be totally honest at such a young age and with such minimal contact now their influence is very small. I would try not worry about it (easier said than done).

I think as hard as it is you really are going to literally trust dh to deal with them however he wishes to and accept that whatever he is doing he is doing so for an easier life, but at the same time he isn't making a big deal about you seeing them (is he?) So I'd embrace that and just let him get on with it.

Ok so full story. Sorry for delay had nursery run.

DH came home from work clearly ratty, snapping at me.
I asked him why he was being horrible, what had I done. Flash of realisation hit and I asked him if he had spoken to his parents.

Yeah, he said his mum rang him, asking to speak to the kids, he claimed he told her why not and she just was silent on it. He can't/won't elaborate on the phone call further.

He said "can't we just Skype and not talk about what happened" and I got upset. Quietly.

He got angry and told me that it's shit for him, he is in the middle, the timing is shit, he can't even speak to his mum on Mother's Day. I pointed out he was the one choosing not to speak to them easy cowards choice and that he didn't have to. Just that I was nc and was keeping the kids away until DH was able to support me and them.

Anyway lots more shite of this nature emerged, and he said "I wish I'd just lied to you about my mum, it's far easier" and it turns out he has been receiving texts from his dad and not telling me. I suspect there is more but don't care. What I do care about is the content of the texts. "Your mum hasn't spoken to the kids for 3 weeks, you are spineless".

Which I think is a nasty thing to say, DH thinks it's a joke, and best to keep it from me.

He doesn't seem to realise that by doing so, he is complicit with his dad in saying it, he is condoning it, and he is sending the message that we aren't a team.

I'm so sick of this and it's only been three weeks! What will it take for my husband to not lie, to not deceive me, to be onside?

God even if he 'chose' his family I'd almost prefer that as at least he would be picking a side instead of hovering in the middle and lying to me and ignoring them.

He so desperately needs counselling, but I'm not even sure he will mention his dad. He is so desperate to please them, to not "rock the boat", that I will always lose out. It's just not normal.

I feel bereft right now, please be kind.

I'm sorry but I don't want them skyping my kids like nothing is wrong while I hide away upstairs (DH suggestion). They think they did no wrong, that I am overreacting. How can I sit there hearing it all, hearing them laugh like they are the big happy family without me in the picture. Cos thats what they fucking want, let's face it.

Keep remembering bits.

I said to DH (when he was ranting that he can't talk to his parents) that he needs to make decisions he can live with, be it talking/not talking to them, skyping etc, and that I must do the same. He got cross and told me to stop threatening him and that I was forcing him not to talk to them.

He can't accept any bloody responsibility!

He is just horrible. My life is so shit.

What will it take for my husband to not lie, to not deceive me, to be onside?

For that you'd need a new one.

I know you are very upset and I feel for you. The distress you are in comes through in your posts.

The trouble is this... He isn't going to change. He's showing you that this is his "bar". In some ways I can see where he's coming from having a similar situation with my own mum as I mentioned before. He probably feels that there isn't much point in challenging them all the time and trying to get them to see that they're wrong. With people like that they never will be and they won't change. So as in my own situation do I want to be arguing with mum all the time or should I just go for a peaceful life?

The trouble is being stuck in the middle is awful. I am often stuck between my mum and my dh and it makes my life hell. I often just feel like telling the lot of them to f off to be honest. Harsh but true.

If you and your dh split up tomorrow the dc would probably have a lot more contact with the pil than they do now and you would have far less input and control over it. So for now I would sit back and let your dh do what he feels is best and just don't get involved.

It sounds weird but the more you can distance yourself the less you'll be so upset. At the moment it all seems really raw and upsetting. It's a bit like going through a bad break up, except this is family rather than a boyfriend or dh.

He has never challenged them, not once since I've known him.

I feel like I'm doing the pick me dance. He was so cruel tonight, I can't bear it.

You asked him to choose, he told you he chose you, but actually he chose his parents.

You can't count on him not to lie to you regarding them and you can't count on his loyalty.

If his his parents were different - not quite so abominable - there might be some point in trying to compromise. But they're ignorant bullies and they are just too vile. You can't win against them became there's 3 of them and 1 of you.

I'm really sorry, but you're hoping for a situation that will never be, and you're wanting your husband to be a man he just is not.

So today I get told:

I am angry at my parents and too scared to tell them, so I'm taking it out on you, I'm sorry.

I think I've taken you for granted because you love me and I'm secure in that, so I think I'll never lose you, but I'm scared that I will lose my dad if I confront him.

He also showed me another text his dad sent "you have betrayed us" and told me it made him really angry but he couldn't say anything.

Don't know what to make of any of it. Other then to conclude his dad is a lunatic.

He agrees with me that in his actions he has chosen his parents.

Fairy, when you say you are stuck in the middle, can I ask under what circumstances?

If your mum went nuclear at your DH, name calling etc in front of dc, would you still be in the middle, or would you be firmly supporting DH and telling your mum she was out of order?

Oh we've had a fair few major rows with my mum during which she has screamed at both dh and I and once when very drunk she shut the door on me in my own house and told me to piss off, told dh to fuck off and then went out in her pj's at 3 am... dh and I had to go and find her (dd was away with her dad that weekend, this was before ds was born).

The thing is, there is no point in keeping on arguing about it. I've already distanced myself a lot more from my mum than I would have done if it wasn't for dh (my mum used to live with me and I made her move out when I met dh as she took and instant dislike to him and was awful). Dh knows that but I'm not prepared to cut contact with her. My situation is difficult in that my mum is reasonably vulnerable (alcohol and depression issues) and i'm an only child and she has no other family so it's on my conscience if I cut her out.

So to put it bluntly dh has to accept that is the way she is, she's never apologised and won't apologise and he just stays out of it as much as possible and let's me deal with her.

I do feel in the middle because dh is so obviously unhappy if I so much as mention I've spoken to her or if I agree to meet her (I usually only see her for an hour or two a week, I try to arrange it when dh is at work). I get really pissed off because I feel like I've already compromised by having a lot less contact than I would have done for his sake and he needs to let me deal with it without having a go at me. It's very difficult to be in my situation with a difficult and demanding mother.

I'm not asking him to see her or make any effort I'm just wanting to deal with her on my terms and for the kids to have minimal contact otherwise my life is hell. She will make me feel awful and to be frank it is less stressful just carrying on like this.

Thing is, this for us is the first blow up, it's not like it keeps happening for DH. Surely the first time she was awful to DH, you supported him?

We supported each other (that first awful row, there have been a few more since but that was the worst) but I have to be honest and I can't remember actually telling mum she was out of order to dh. Perhaps I should have done but to be fair we were all shouting at each other like a bad episode of Jeremy Kyle and we are not like that at all normally! It just sort of calmed down and was forgotten about. Maybe that's what your dh wants to do now?

The thing is after a period of time has elapsed and things are gradually getting back to normal it's very difficult to start up the whole thing again.

If you were your dh how would you have handled things?

If this was reversed, at the point of my parents having a go at DH, I would have essentially told them to eff off (without swearing)

Afterwards, I would have told them that it was highly inappropriate and until they found a way to make it right with DH, we were all out of contact.

But then, I am secure in my parents love, and I'm not scared of them. We have big loud busts ups in my family, get it all out into the open, and eventually make up. Plus my parents just wouldn't do this to DH, they treat him as an equal and I think after all this time they see him as a family member.

DH family does not get problems out into the open. They have ignored and enabled his older brother having a drug problem for a decade now.

Now that we are here, I've spotted the pattern in fils behaviour and that's why I think DH needs to step in. To show that pil can't come between us, that unacceptable standards of behaviour won't be tolerated (racism, bullying, etc). I don't think we can or should go back to the old normal. If DH does, imo he is sending a message that what has happened is ok.

Even now, if it were me, I'd be saying to mil - I know you want to see the kids but WE think it's inappropriate until these problems are resolved.

I'd be telling fil that I'm not spineless, that for the first time I'm supporting my family, and that if he sees that as a betrayal, that its his problem. That I'm finally doing what I should have done a long time ago.

Then at some point in the future I would make it clear that if they want a relationship with us and the kids, not only does an apology have to take place, but that certain behaviours stop as of now.

I would also restrict future communication, and NEVER mention my marriage to them. (Mil had the nerve to ask yesterday how we were getting on relationship wise, and DH had the fucking nerve to tell her)

Finally, I'd be running as fast as I can to counselling to explore my parental relationship, upbringing, and why I'm not secure in their love.

Gosh it's so funny because I can see so much of my dh side talking to you.....! Dhs family are like your family. They have massive rows and then make up again. If someone is doing something wrong they tell each other. My mum and I aren't like that. If I openly told her she'd said something awful the fall out would last indefinitely and that's why I don't. With dhs family they would argue and then make up again.

I can totally understand that the racism and bullying is unacceptable. The thing is you are not going to change them. Even if dh goes in guns blazing and has a go at them I doubt they will change. The behaviour is too embedded.

I think all you can do is what you are doing which is to accept that things are as they are.

All DH does, is pretend this hasn't happened, and gets annoyed at any reminder that it has.

If they can't curtail swearing (as in the c word), racist or bullying comments when speaking to me or the dc, then they won't speak to them. That one is non negotiable.

I think those demands re the swearing and racist comments are completely acceptable and I would certainly not stand for that at all. Your dh does need to put his foot down there.

The rest of it.... I can see how it's difficult for your dh. And for you.

If DH could even cope with it internally, we might have a chance, but as it is, his dad says stuff, it clearly affects him, he can't or won't process it, and then turns all that anger on to me and I don't even know what's happened!

It can't continue like that, whether he eventually tells his parents or not.

When he tells you what his dad had said how do you respond? I ask because if I tell my dh something that my mum has said that has upset me he gets almost cross with me rather than giving me a hug, or being sympathetic to the fact I am upset. I think he is angry because he doesn't see why I don't get angry but anger is very close to pain and it's hard not to feel hurt. As a result I often end up trying not to mention my mum around dh at all and sometimes that does make me feel angry with the whole situation.

With the first comment (spineless) I got angry cos DH had lied about it and told me it was a joke.

With the second comment (betrayal) I was calm cos DH had been honest and didn't try to defend it. I said that he hadn't betrayed anyone, and it's not normal that fil thinks DH supporting his family is a betrayal. It ended there, no anger.

How I react entirely depends on DH's reaction - if he is cross, I don't have to be iyswim?

Your situation sounds like a nightmare for both of you fairy and I have a lot of sympathy, I am very sorry.

Just had another horrible discussion with DH, he is now acknowledging how wrong his dad is but insisting his mum is innocent and shouldn't be 'punished'c

When I reminded him of the lies she told fil about me, plus a few other things he said, you could see him visibly struggle with it, then he got angry at me and told me my tone was disrespectful and I was talking to him like he was shit. I was angry when speaking and that definitely showed but I wasn't directing it to him.

But I believe that it was easier for him to manufacture a reason to be cross with me rather than accept any wrong doing on his mums behalf.

DH has said he wants to email both parents to say he will be in touch when he has processed what's happened, and figured out to deal with it.

He also then wants to call his mum, explain in a bit more detail the history with fil, and enable her to stay in touch with the kids via Skype as long as Fil isn't involved.

Problem is he keeps putting off sending the email, and I certainyl don't want to mention it, and in the meantime he is getting bombarded with messages from his dad and brother saying how miserable mil is, what a traitor DH is, betrayal, bad son, blah blah blah and I can see it affecting him. I just don't know what to do or say.

I'm not happy for DH and mil to Skype with the children before anything has been said. I'm scared that fil and bil are going to bully DH into a resolution before we have even discussed it properly with a counsellor. Plus he is in a right old mood every time he gets a message.

I'm also really angry at the unpleasant messages being sent to DH like he has done something wrong.