Terrible situation with pil

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I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

Problem is OP I'm not sure anyone can answer that for you. We can tell you what we would do (I would expect DH to pull them up on it and tell them that we will go NC if it doesn't change), but you have already ruled a lot of options out.

You have had a nasty experience.

But remember this: you cannot change your PiLs, you cannot change the fact that your DH wants a relationship with them.

They are who they are and I know a lot of sons who would be very, very uncomfortable challenging their father (rightly or wrongly).

All you can do is highlight their behaviour to your dh. If he is a reasonable person he will understand what you don't like about it and why you want minimum contact with these people.

If he regresses when he is with them, don't go to witness it. Family dynamics are complicated to say the least.

These people live four hours away so you need to take advantage of that fact. I don't think your FiL likes you very much and you don't like him.

So avoid. Avoid. Avoid.

I think, in the kindest possible way, you are enabling them to behave like this because you aren't standing up to them. (I say that as someone who has a toxic mother and has gone near no contact from living together for 32 years). I wouldn't have stayed overnight with them and at the very least I would have left the second things started becoming difficult. By staying and allowing them to effectively bully you it's like you have granted them control. I'm not saying it's your fault but in some way they are taking on the parent role again because they have been allowed to.

I think from here on in I wouldn't have contact with them. Allow them to visit you at your home and they stay in a hotel nearby.

I think you also have huge issues with your dh but you know that.

I feel a terrible deep pity for your children. Poor little bloody buggers having to put up with all of you lot.

You'll reap what you sow when they are teenagers though if you don't get a handle on this while they're little.

Fuck the lot of them off and concentrate on being a mother. Name calling, shouting, crying and toxic grandparents on top is really bad for them.

I would expect DH to pull them up on it and tell them that we will go NC if it doesn't change I hope one day he will have the courage to do this.

Fil clearly can't stand me. Not sure why, maybe he thinks I've taken his son away. I have a good family, several good friends, I've been successful professionally. I don't think its me who is the problem.

I personally will not be going there again any time soon. Apart from anything else, they haven't even acknowledge the situation we find ourselves in. There can be no moving forward until that happens, at minimum. I agree they can see us, on our turf, in a hotel. DH can visit there alone.

Thanks gamer, kick me while I'm down why don't you. They don't see me shout or name call, nor DH. the worst they have seen is their grandad and I could not have predicted all that anger. And I'm a bloody brilliant mother. That is one thing NOT up for question or debate.

Aaah I keep screwing up my name changes. Please don't make reference to my other name, I've reported my posts to hq.

It doesn't matter what FIL thinks of you or why. You have many valid reasons not to spend time with him and to limit the time he and MIL spend with the DC. If your H wants to see them in the forseeable future he should visit them alone. Set boundaries for you and the DC.

It isn't your job to help your H deal with his baggage with his family or to stop him taking it out on you (name-calling, making you walk on eggshells....) support is one thing, but it sounds like he could benefit from professional help.

And that's assuming he's not emotionallyabusive, which it sounds like he might be.

Will just say things all went wrong in our marriage when our daughter died and DH turned to booze. It's been a long hard road but we were starting to turn the corner. His parents are setting DH back and this weekend gone has made us realise that it's not just about healing our relationship or our bereavements, he has a whole upbringing to work on.

Please don't judge either of us too harshly.

OP that's the thing, they don't have to acknowledge anything and they won't. They aren't just going to wake up one day and realise how terrible they are.

That is why you should just leave well alone. You will literally get nowhere. You can't fix or repair this situation.

Get your dh the book about toxic parents by all means but don't let all of this eat away at you. As long as your no contact they aren't your problem.

Don't bother trying to educate dh on their short comings on a regular basis either, it will just cause tension in your marriage and his mind.

Good luck.

The thing is though OP he can also choose to go low contact with them but it's a decision he must make on his own. Not influenced by you, incase he comes to resent you for it.

By all means direct him to counselling but don't keep saying how screwed up his upbringing was and consequently his life now.

I'm sorry about your daughter OP. I think that's an even bigger reason to step as far back from the IL's as possible and work on yourselves and your relationship. Seriously you can't and won't change them. I can't think of anything to suggest to you as a way of dealing with them because I can't see that anything you do will make a difference. So forget them and concentrate on yourselves and your children.

When you have kids you lose the right to be all about me. I'm not trying to kick you while you're down and I apologise. I've seen so many damaged kids because of their parents dysfunctional relationship who wonder why their kids go off the rails when they're mid teens.

How you and your bloke behave with each other is not good or normal and they don't deserve it.

I'll bow out though. Good luck.

Agree with not going there again, at least for a very long time. Four days is too long to be a visitor anywhere without cracks showing even in the happiest of relationships. If you contemplate going even for a short period, stay in a hotel and plan other stuff to do on the journey there and back so it's not all about a penance visit to the in laws. Get them to come and meet you for dinner when you stay at a hotel - this has the added bonus that the restaurant will be non smoking so you don't need even to have that discussion.

Also agree that counselling, both as a couple and individually, would be well worth it. I would just work on getting yourselves on an even keel for now, and only even consider dealing with the in laws again when that's more settled.

I'm very sorry to read about your daughter. Cut the in laws out and stick to your guns.

No I haven't said that, he has said his upbringing was messed up and has given him issues ( e.g. He bullied in school as he thinks /thought teasing was acceptable). He is thinking about things in terms of our children now and doesn't want them growing up being teased or thinking it's ok. Or racist, or any of the other bile fil spouts. All this came from DH.

I am happy to just ignore this and go low contact myself, but it will still raise its ugly head when pil want visits either here or there, or want to see the kids, or want to FaceTime. I don't know how to prevent or manage these things without being the controlling dictator ive been accused of being.

Gamer, I know it seems abominable. But it's important to me that it's known that DH and I kept our issues away from the kids. It has never been all about us. That we are in love, are friends, and we have happy family time together, that until this weekend with pil, we had done so much better for the last three months. I was at the point of separating from DH but we talked to relate and learned new communication, and we have really improved.

It's just this weekend felt like the clock was turned back. But we would have talked and got through it if pil hadn't been involved.

I am a great mother, and we are good parents, and getting better.

At the end of the day, on DH birthday, he got pissed off, talked to me like shite, and acted like a child. None of that is ltb and we would have talked it out and resolved it on any other day. But where we were and the fact that pil felt they had the right to ambush me (3times!) made it unbearable.

And even with their negative involvement, we resolved our issues as soon as we had alone time, as we always have lately.

I keep remembering stuff fil said.

He was defending DH saying we take our anger out on those we are closest too and using me to release anger so it was ok. (Talking about how DH is unhappy at work). I said I don't think it's ok and I don't do that.

I don't. If I'm angry about something non DH related, I tell DH, and sometimes he will talk with me to help me, sometimes I will tell him and choose to go have a bath or something to calm down. I only ever get angry with DH if he is the problem.

Fil said I was lying and everyone does it. And that a marriage counsellor would laugh at me if I tried to say it to them.

Also don't know if it's relevant, but fil has not once acknowledged our eldest daughter.

But they think you're that anyway so who cares?

Look, they hate you and want you out of their family, so fuck them. You want them to have a realisation and then apologise and for everything to be lovely. It's never going to happen, the sooner you accept that and take steps to protect yourself and your children from this horrible toxic "man", the better.

I know that's why I've bowed out. I do wish you well and move mountains to avoid the inlaws. I forget that not everyone finds it easy to tell toxic people to sling their hook.

I do apologise though and wish you well.

Hmm. I can only relate this to my own situation but my dh absolutely hates my mum with a passion - she's an alcoholic, has told me to "piss off" etc several times in front of dh in drunken rages and sworn at dh too, gone out missing at 3 am in her pyjamas leaving us wondering if she's dead or alive, told me my ex dh was brave for leaving me and dd when dd was 6 and so on... I could go on. If it was up to dh we would never see her ever again and the dc would have no contact with her. I can see why he feels like this and believe me I can see her behaviour is unacceptable. Difficulty is she's my mum and I can't cut her out. So in our situation I take the dc to see her and dh stays home. I make sure I arrange visits for when dh is at work.

It's not fair on dh to put him through the stress of it and it just creates so much bad feeling so I just keep them apart. I think mum knows dh doesn't like her so we just don't mention it - dh is always "busy" or at work, even if he isn't.

Is there something similar you could do? Just step back and let your dh take the kids to visit and let him get on with it? I appreciate the smoking issue is a problem but I'm wondering if you could get dh onside. I just think sometimes you can't win in these situations and if you are confident they are good with the gdc normally maybe it's better to just stay back and let them get on with it with dh on their own.

No no I don't want everything to be lovely! I know that won't happen. I do want to have my say, whether they shit all over it or not. I also want DH to defend me. Pie in the sky dreams perhaps.

I know things will never be the same, and they weren't that great before. I'd happily never see fil again.

My main hope is that DH can see this stuff and be strong and understand and want to protect our kids from the toxicity. I don't want to feel like we are against each other on this issue, I want us to be strong and stand together and make the right choices for our family together.

I think his love for his parents and fear of his dad will prevent that.

I don't have it in me to let the kids visit so far away without me even in a positive situation, let alone in this misery. I can't. Either I will have to go and then just not go to their house, or only go briefly, or they will have to come here.

I feel a bit mother lioness right now wanting to protect my Cubs from what I percieve as a danger. I don't feel they should be there without me.

I know this will cause problems for DH down the line.

Fairy how does your DH cope with dc seeing someone he hates?

His opinions are fruitless. It's no good dwelling on them. Look where it's got you.

He will always have those opinions and it's no good excusing your dh behaviour owing to his father.

He's a grown up now and should know right from wrong regardless of his upbringing.

Take them with a pinch of salt.

When they visit, you go elsewhere, see family or friends.

You are far too invested here. Let it go.