Terrible situation with pil

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I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

The thing about getting angry in the car - can you point out (gently) to your husband that this is exactly what your father in law does?

One of the problems of grotty parents is that they can lay down a pattern within their children that comes out as they get older. You don't see it at 20 but they can become quite similar by 45 or 50. Doesn't always happen mind you, but the old joke that people turn into their parents isn't completely baseless.

It's kind of important to pick up on these little things aas they happen and not let them go otherwise it gets more ingrained and worse and worse. Making a joke of it can help (even calling your husband by his father's name once can make the point!) but don't let it go unchallenged. Or pointing out that it makes a very unpleasant atmosphere.

Worst case (and hopefully with you there, it won't come to that) if your husband allows himself to slide into these habits, he could be fitting into the pattern his own father laid down for him. in 20 years he could become a carbon copy. If he's deep in the FOG, it's notably more likely to happen sadly.

This is doom mongering a bit, but it -is- worth picking up on him when he acts like his father. Don't let it become a habit, and the habit become ingrained.

It might be that your DH is unable to be a good partner. No matter how much you try, he has to do so too or things won't changr. Is he trying to be kind and not do these things that upset you?

I understand the driving thing, my DF did and still does it and it's awful for passengers in the car!

DH not socialising is obviously not ideal but you have bigger fish to fry with him right now. just carry on yourself! So that you have things you enjoy.

You are minimising contact with the PiL, so perhaps give yourself a break from going over all their toxicity in your mind for a bit!

I'm feeling pretty exhausted trying to keep this all going in the face of DH's selfishness and apparent lack of care for our relationship. Starting to realise that this is who he is and he has no interest in changing it. I'm married to an oversized child.

I'm glad you said this OP, because having just read this thread, your other two you linked, and recalling your 'Theseus' thread, I can't agree with your insistence that your H is not the problem here.

Your OP is clear - your relationship has been on the rocks for a year (I suspect it's much longer than that actually), you still fight, you still name call, you still cry, it's abusive on both sides you say.

Going by the description of the visit to PIL you husband is moody, angry and very difficult to work with.

Personally I think the key to all the PIL problems lies with your H. He should have his parents under control, they should be treating you with respect and if they don't you don't see them. It's your husband's job to protect you from these nutcases. If he can't stand up to them then you go no contact.

My FIL is very difficult, but my children and I are protected from him at all points. If FIL ever got seriously out of line my husband would cut contact completely.

You're spending a huge amount of energy analysing everything your husband and his parents say and do. H said this FIL said that, MIL said that. Are they doing the same for you? I doubt it. You're very very tangled up in this dysfunctional family and I think it's making you very unhappy.

I would take a step back and ask yourself, is this actually working? Is this how you want to live your life?

Sorry I don't mean to imply that DH isn't the problem. He is, of course he is. Just wanted this thread to be more focused on pil advice. Appreciate there is crossover.

He came down ths morning and has apologised, and we've had a nice day so far, so I am going along with it and hoping for the best. I can't change him. I'm not at ltb yet, so let's hope he figures this out on his own.

Our relationship has been struggling since I had DS, so nearly 2 years now.

We had made huge inroads just before Christmas and done so well, then this pil visit happened. I feel like it's still angry and abusive because everything went so badly wrong after things really had been better.

Having said that, our recent disagreements (and I believe we will always have those) have been much better managed, we have followed our relate guidelines. Yesterday he demonstrated colossal selfishness, and I felt like it was only ever me who acted for the good of the whole family. The onus is on him to prove me wrong.

Agree completely that DH has to be the barrier between our family and pil, and I will have that conversation when it comes up.

This isn't how I want to live my life no, but nor am I at the point yet that I want to live our lives apart. We haven't even been to counselling yet. Only been working with relate for a short while. I can't give up yet.

I can only speak from my own experience of things with my mum and dh but if dh constantly goes on about my mum or infers that I'm not dealing with her properly it really, really pisses me off. To be honest I just want to be left alone to deal with her the way I can and I don't think he understands her the way I do. Maybe your dh feels the same?

As we do with my mum I think you absolutely have the right to stop contact with them yourself but I'd just try and let it go and let your dh deal with them. I think given the way things are with your dh at the moment if you keep pushing and pushing I think you are likely to push him away.

I know others won't agree because they will say your dh must side with you and stand up to them but trust me when you have lived in a family like this for all your life it is very, very stressful being caught in the middle and it is really only our own uk culture that says marriage must come before mum and dad - in most other cultures the parents are just as if not more important. (I am from the UK by the way but just throwing that out there).

They don't sound very nice. But it doesn't sound like you're going to change them. So you really have to stop trying to. Pretend they don't exist, let your dh deal with them and step right back.

I'm sure my dh could come up with a billion and one reasons why he hates my mum (on one occasion he and I have actually had the kind of row you see on Jeremy kyle and we're really not that kind of people but she makes us so angry sometimes!) But it's easier long term to just try to let it go.

Your children may have some contact with them and their shitty racist ways but if you keep telling your dc they are wrong and you are right they will grow up seeing the grandparents as just silly and out of date especially with the reduced contact.

I haven't mentioned pil for a few days, unless asked of course. It's all internal.

I think if DH gets to the point you are at fairy, it will be much easier to leave him to deal with it all

And IMO it's not that marriage should automatically come before parents, but that we should protect those we love from harm. I haven't caused them any harm. Its about behaving in the right way rather than subscribing to an idea that marriage comes first. Though I do believe that dh's role as a father is more important than his role as a son.

Both pil got in touch yesteday, individually, to DH. Don't know if it's a coincidence or if DH has been lying to me.

Either way, nothing significant, no acknowledgement of the situation. Fil was talking about football and mil was telling him how much she loved him.

Feels like a complete snub to be honest.

I feel so angry at myself that I didn't stand up for myself.

And if I couldnt, how can I expect DH to? Who yesterday told me that my anger at pil was inappropriate and I need counselling to stop me getting so angry.

I am disappointed in myself. That I didn't tell them not to speak to me like that, that I didn't walk away. That I didn't tell them that of course they can smoke in their own home, but I won't be subjecting the kids to it. Ditto for the teasing, the racism, the sexism. That if they can't show me respect by not judging me or my marriage, that they will not be around me and by extension, my children. That if they try to involve themselves in my marriage, that they will lose out, because I am the mother of DH's children.

I hate myself for being so cowardly. I hate DH for the same, and for still not being able to see the damage that has been done. For wanting it all to be ok backtrack rather than finding a way for OUR family (not theirs) to move forward. And I hate pil for treating me like I'm sub human.

I'm going to be blunt here after reading this thread and having a look at the other two you linked to- this all feels like drama In that way you create and live in drama When you're 17. And I think you're implicit in the drama continuing if I'm honest.

You've undoubtedly been through some awful times and you sound like a good mother and loving person but the intensity of your posts scares me.

My PILs are fuckwits, and I think from what you've said fuckwits in the same way as yours- thick, racist, controlling, uneducated.... Just intolerable arseholes who make me want to punch a wall when we have to see them. But my DH acknowledges this and shields me and DD from it. I very seldom have personally deal with them. Why is it that you're continually dealing with yours? Why isn't your husband sorting this for you and the kids?

Also, are you sure that you want to be with DH? You don't sound very happy. It sounds exhausting. He sounds like he acts like he's 16 and you seem to overanalyse everything he says and does. I've been in a relationship like that and it was exhausting and tiring and soul destroying. It made me ill and that was without kids and a marriage and an adult life like you have.

What makes me happy in my life and my marriage is the peace that exists between me and DH and our home life. You sound like you have no peace. I ask again, are you sure this is what you want?

I think PIL are a side issue to your husbands dysfunction and lack of adult behaviour.

Sorry for the tough love but I think you need a wake up call here.

How can I stop the drama continuing then please?

And in fact, how is it I continue it? Just because I'm thinking this stuff in my head and not verbalising it in rl?

Please can you elaborate on the intensity of my posts?

Why do you think I'm continually dealing with pil? Bearing in mind this stuff happened 2/3 weeks ago.

DH is the main issue yes. I don't know why he isn't shielding us. Maybe counselling will help him figure it out. Of course pil are a side issue, but they were also the trigger for realising where some of DH's problems might stem from.

I'm not yet at the point of splitting up my family, of losing control over my kids contact with pil, when we haven't even had a counselling session yet. No I'm not happy. But does that mean I never can be in this marriage?

Thank you for replying, I'm really interested in your replies again if that's ok, to elaborate on your post.

The overanalysing is I think what I'm reading as intensity. I think that you need to almost draw a line under the fact that your PILs are horrible and not keep analysing why or what has made them this way. Go non contact. If your husband wants to see them and facilitate the kids seeing them, he can deal with that. Not your problem. Don't go and stay with them. Don't have them stay at yours. They're not in your marriage and are not the biggest problem. Perhaps they have Informed your DHs behaviour but we all have our crosses to bear with family. You can only bleat "oh I had a horrible dad" for so long without doing anything about it.

Which leads me on to my next point: DH needs to grow the fuck up. From what I'm reading It seems as though the idea of counselling etc has a) been coming from you and b) been being talked about for ages. He needs to take decisive action. Can you afford for some private therapy? Even if just once a month to get the ball rolling. If him having some therapy is what's going to sort things in your marriage if needs to happen RIGHT NOW because otherwise you're headed for a split, surely? You both sound utterly, utterly miserable and it seems you have been for a long time.

I have gone no contact, and I don't care why they are this way. But it is still so raw and I have no one to speak to in rl. It still hurts. I was just using this thread as an outlet for my emotions. Today I felt overwhelmed with upset and anger so I posted here.

The kids aren't seeing them without me so unfortunately that is my problem. Again, they are 5 months and 23 months. Right now they aren't seeing them, but if and when that day comes, I'm more comfortable with it being on my turf so to speak.

DH initially mooted counselling, I've just agreed to the idea. We went to gp, have been referred, and are waiting on our first session. Using relate in the meantime.

And no, we have no spare money as I'm on mat leave. Can't even afford a baby sitter if we get free couples therapy with relate. I have to hope that individual counselling will help us enough that telephone sessions with relate are productive.

Yes of course DH needs to grow up. But I don't want to have to divorce him for that to happen! Apart from anything else, if possible I'd like our children to have a happy stable family life. Right now they aren't privy to the arguments - in fact pil showed them the most arguing and shouting they've seen!

No I'm not happy. I don't know about DH. He can compartmentalise so well that I think if I always kept my mouth shut, he would be fine.

I don't see that we are heading for a split if it's not what either of us want. I believe that DH needs some serious therapy. Needs to realise on his own that fil is toxic. That he wants to put his own nuclear family first. If he can't get to that point, yes, that may be ltb.

But we haven't even started yet.

I feel like I'm being really defensive now :(

I'm sorry I'm not meaning to piss you off, I just felt like you needed a metaphorical shake.

I think you need to try very hard- however you can- to let go of the anger because it's giving them headspace they don't deserve. I once heard sknekne say that holding on to anger and resentment is like "drinking poison and expecting the other person to die". That's what you're doing. They aren't giving you this much headspace. I promise you that. They just think you're wrong and that wont change. And who cares, you know you're right.

Have you laid it on the line with your DH? That this is breaking point now. That you're miserable and things need to change?

I'm not pissed off :)

I have told him yes. I don't think he gets it. He likes to ignore negativity.

Plus he knows I'm not at ltb point too. So I'm pretty powerless. I'm waiting for him to do the right thing.

Sorry sorry sorry

Need advice

I bought mil a Mother's Day card in January.
DH always needs reminding to send it.

Should I remind him?
Considering I'm nc? But also considering mil didn't really do much wrong?

I shouldn't should I. He is a big boy and she is HIS mum. And they called me controlling and I shouldn't be controlling his card sending. They don't appreciate me, they don't get to benefit from me.

Ok. I won't. Love mumsnet

No.

Don't remind him. You have it just right. It's not your job in the first place, it's his; and well ... you're just being very careful not to be controlling, aren't you ;)

We have had an ok few days. Dare I feel hopeful?!

He is on a late today so took both kids once I'd fed the baby, and I slept from 8 until nearly 10!

The world looks much brighter without a fog of exhaustion.

Heh, doesn't it just!

I'm not sure about hopeful. I don't think that your husband is anywhere near having your back here. At a guess the friction is going to come up again and again until he learns to step back from them.

but a good night's sleep or two helps you cope much better and helps stop things getting just too big in one's head =)

The friction will come back yes.

We had a really interesting talk the other night, and I asked who he would choose if it came down to it, divorce or never seeing pil again. He said me.

So based on that, I asked him why if he would do such a big thing, why he wouldn't do the smaller things of counselling, supporting me, being my teammate against pil if needed. It seemed to get him thinking at any rate.

He also agreed I never have to see them again if I cant, and that the goal is to get them to stop any and all behaviours which WE decide we don't want our kids to see, otherwise they don't see them.

Pretty words yes, and the actions need to follow. I hope they do.

His mum called him today asking to see the children.

No mention of what happened when we visited other than to enquire about our relationship health.

He claims he told them they did wrong and that its caused "untold damage", but I don't believe him.

He wants to Skype her and just talk about it like nothings wrong.

I feel sick.

Hmmm. But in some ways if he Skypes her does it matter in the grand scheme of things? I can see why it would annoy you but given you are going nc with them and minimising the contact with the children then I'd let her have the Skype phone call with dh. Maybe for him it's easier just to do that rather than keep arguing with everyone? My mum would never apologise for anything so there would be no point in hanging around waiting for one. I just get on with as much minimal contact as I can. Sometimes an easy life really is the best thing. You don't have to hear or even know about the Skype call etc.