Terrible situation with pil

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I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

I only care what they think in as much as I'm scared DH thinks it too, or that they will persuade him to think it. They have come between us before, I believe they can do it again.

I wish I could go no contact. I think though if I did I'd lose DH.

You know you aren't who they think you are this stood out to me. I know that. I don't think DH does. I think it suits him sometimes to believe I'm this person and that his bad behaviours are justified. To have his mummy and daddy supporting him no matter what.

For instance, the boots thing, I feel that if I did what I feel is right as ds's mum, I'm proving to everyone that I'm controlling. It's very difficult mentally.

Giving dh the benefit of the doubt.. deliberately missing the call ...then that's a good start. And the fact he says he wants to address this. It's very difficult to redress the balance after so long and it does take time.

I just keep remembering nasty controlling things which I'm only recognising with hind sight.

They had a visit planned to see us, and the morning of, they told us they were bringing their adult son, my bil, who lives with them. Cue us scampering around trying to make space for him to have a blow up bed, which we had to buy.

When we went on holiday, it was too my parents villa, so free accommodation. I booked and arranged it all. It was our first holiday with pil. When there fil starting whining that bil wasn't with us. A 29 year old man whom they had taken away on holiday at least once a year for the past 5. Made me feel like utter shit I can tell you. That holiday ended with bil having a meltdown thinking people were spying on him, and us all spending the last few days trying to book early flights home, arranging carers for bil, and trying to get him some help. That holiday was ruined by DH at the start and pil/bil at the end. Never again.

When I was in hospital having DS, I had been attempting induction for 3 days and was knackered and more emotional then I'd ever been. We were discussing a section and pil kept calling, when we decided on a section we told my mum who was with us, she stupidly told pil. They left theirs then and there to come to us instead of waiting the next day. So I had DS at 6pm after 3 days with no sleep, lost loads of blood, and instead of bonding and rekaxing as a family (DH was allowed to stay), he had to go back to ours to sort out bedding etc for pil. It was all I could do to insist they weren't visiting that night.

I know that all my problems stem from DH not standing up for us, but they are so bloody domineering and controlling. I don't know how I didn't see it before.

Fairy I am proud of DH. If he manages to tell mil that he will be the one to get in touch when ready, it's a huge step for him.

I'm just scared that he is doing it not because he wants to or because he feels it's best, but because he thinks it's what I want. Hell, he might not even be able to differentiate between that in his head.

I am going to be blunt. Ok?

If you distancing yourself from people that upset you, belittle you, hurt you, undermine you as a parent and cause you this much upset causes you to lose your husband then he is not worth keeping - because if he cannot see that what I've just written is reasonable then he doesn't respect you either. I know you are desperate to cling to this relationship but you know, going no contact may be wake up call that your H needs. It's saying to him "this is how unacceptable your parents behaviour is" this is how extremely hurtful it is. I'm forced to cut them out of my life because they are that damaging. Tbh I don't know how you can respect a man who would chose his mummy and daddy over the mother of his kids.

Secondly your comment re being proved to be controlling over the boots ... So? So what if they think you're controlling? It's a word. It can't hurt you. Let them think you are controlling. If your DH is honestly so very incapable of making a judgement about the woman he lives with that he relies on the opinion of his parents who see you infrequently then I will eat my hat! If HE thought you were controlling then he would be the one calling you it, and he wouldn't just say it when he saw his parents, he would say it all the time. Does he on a regular basis call you controlling?

If I were you, being totally honest here, and going off what I've done in the past, I'd calmly tell H that I'm cutting contact with PIL and that for now the kids wouldn't be seeing them either. If he wants to go see them he's free to do that. Give him time to think it over and think it through. But ultimately if he sided with them I couldn't forgive him because I'd have tested him and found that he had as little respect for me as they did, and I couldn't be with someone who didn't respect me. I think atm you're trying to keep H happy and that's forcing you to push aside doing the best for YOU. Life ain't about pleasing everyone else. Your kids need a mum who is happy and can therefore be the best mother for them. If you are constantly wrapped up in trying to fix all these relationships - between you and H, H and PIL, you and PIL - then you won't be happy, and you won't be giving the kids your all. There is no nice solution to this, however much you want there to be.

not because he wants to or because he feels it's best, but because he thinks it's what I want.

For now that may be a step forward because he's putting you first, not them. Long term it needs to change to what he feels is best or what he wants, but for now, this isn't bad.

Suspect that for a long time, you're going to have to encourage him to grow and to break free of their influence to become his own person.

I think you should try to talk to your DH about a short term plan with his parents, there is nothing to be gained by getting so worried about the future when you need to take this day by day and see how your DH gets on with the counselling. Would he agree to some kind of limited contact for the next few months. I certainly don't think you or the dc should see them for the time being.

I know you didn't want to make this about your DH, but your PIL are only such a problem because you feel so insecure about your DH's perspective, his ability and willingness to support you. You need to focus on that, and have as little thought for the PIL as possible in the meantime.

Are you worried that if you and DH did split at some point in the future, there would be times when the dc would be with him/his family and exposed to bad influences? Is that even a small factor in trying to make the relationship work?

It sounds like you are having to constantly compensate for all these faults that at some future point, after much counselling, you hope your DH might be able to change. That is stressful and exhausting.

I feel that if I have a successful relationship with a partner who doesn't allow anyone to run me down, I will feel less worthless.

That sentence is really something to think about. Your self worth will come from you, that is why they call it self worth. You're right, there is a connection between the way your partner treats you and your self worth, but it isn't that if he treats you well, your self worth improves. It is that your self worth improves when you don't accept him treating you badly.

I hope your DH can overcome his issues, but realistically it may not happen and it make take years. Only when he actually accepts that he has these issues and needs to change can the work even begin. I'm worried that waiting and worrying and hoping is only going to grind you down further.

All you can do is work in your own department.

So...
I won't expose our children to this toxic situation.

I do not wish to go and stay with your parents. And I will not allow the DCs to be separated from me, they are babies. you must do as you see fit.

You (to fil) may choose to see it as controlling, I am actually taking responsibility for my children's welfare.

The counselling should help you and DH to behave and communicate as a team. You need to be united in what you won't tolerate in front of your dcs. If you can agree to start the counselling with that aim, it will be an excellent step to a healthier future.

What fil feels about you needs to become less important in your mind. He sounds absolutely hateful and his opinions should be given all the attention they deserve.

It seems you have made every effort to include the ils in your family life, but their behaviour is detrimental to your family's harmony and you are now calling a halt.

And as to whether DH makes changes because he wants to it because he's doing what you want. I wouldn't worry too much at this stage. You are his dw and getting along well with you and taking care of your marriage should be his absolute priority. If he starts the process because you want him to, he will still be starting it. Which is good. As he goes along, he will start to understand and then it will be because he wants it and believes it's the best thing for him, his dw and dcs.

I think you are doing very well already. Keep going.

We were next scheduled to see them in August. We have agreed that is not happening as planned, but nothing further. That visit is unfortunately tied up with a wedding invite, so we will face that when the invite arrives.

DH was scheduled to go alone in May, which he can still do.

Other than that, there were no plans, and since I'm the one who usually makes them, there won't be any.

DH is under no illusions that I am low contact and so are the kids.

Are you worried that if you and DH did split at some point in the future, there would be times when the dc would be with him/his family and exposed to bad influence I am terrified of this temporary. Because DH just isn't brave enough to go against his dad to protect his family. He won't "rock the boat".

shadows again you are right. I just so badly want DH to respect me, and clearly I'm scared he won't, that I don't want to force that decision yet.

Thank you fantastic, your post has given me a little more hope

And as to whether DH makes changes because he wants to do it or because he's doing what you want. I wouldn't worry too much at this stage. Sorry missed a couple of words there

Btw DH never calls me controlling. Not once has he done it.

I feel that if I have a successful relationship with a partner who doesn't allow anyone to run me down, I will feel less worthless

You need to do this for yourself against DH &FIL.

How would you feel if your children were being treated like this? Would you stand up for them? If so why can't you stand up for yourself? Dh will always struggle to stand up to his parents do you have to grow some balls too. You are an adult, they are adults. Why should they be allowed to treat you like this? YOU are allowing them not DH. If YOU let them treat you like this why should DH stick himself in the firing line?

You have given your DH the task of making all things happy for you. It's unrealistic. Look how quickly he reverted, regardless if you have had some good times he is fundamentally still the same.

Use this situation as a bench mark. If he doesn't fight your corner now - then he never will. You have to start looking after YOU. Your posts are so beaten down, there is no fight for you in them. It's all pinned on DH sticking up for you. Your a grown woman - stand up for yourself.

What are you going to do when the children start understand the derogatory names DH calls you? How will they feel when they realise that their GP think you are the reason for all the trouble that goes on in your house? I'll tell you what will happen - they will believe it. They will also believe this is normal when it's very fucking far from it.

I'm NC withb my mil. She is a horrid woman, took four years but I finally kicked her out of my house at Xmas and she hasn't been back. If your DH leaves you because of it - then you never had him in the first place and good fucking riddance.

Your DH sounds like a dick and yes I think you should LTB if not for the sake of your kids but if you want to stay you at least need to start getting some self respect back. People won't respect you if you don't even respect yourself love. AND don't let anyone disrespect you in front of your children.

In actually really mad on your behalf. What a bunch of dickheads all of them.

OP, I understand that you see this as a problem with your PIL, and believe me when I say that I agree with you that their behaviour towards you is less than ideal and that you are right to be worried about the level of control that they are exerting.

However, it's also absolutely obvious that your DH isn't behaving properly towards you. Tired or not, he has no right to act in the way that he is doing, and to belittle and abuse you. I am sorry, because I feel that this isn't what you really want to hear. But I nonetheless think that you should use the time of low contact with your inlaws to try to put things on a more solid foundation at home, and that includes being prepared to read the riot act to your DH over similar behaviour in future.

Oh OP your last comment to me has made me feel quite sad. You say you want DH to respect you, which suggests to me that you don't think he does at the moment? When I was with P someone said something to me that I still remember clear as anything because it was like a lightbulb for me. It was this "once you lose respect for someone you can never get it back, unless it's earned, and earned the long hard way"

I (and you) had done NOTHING to warrant that loss of respect so I'd have spent my whole life trying to earn it back. Respect for each other is the foundation of a relationship, you can't build anything up without those foundations. Well you can, but it soon sinks into the sand or collapses under the slightest strain.

You might not want to test your H by making these big decisions but I think maybe you need to. So you know where you stand, what exactly you are working with here. It's all just so intertwined at present. The feelings about PIL are muddying the waters with you and H.

Have just read your threads op. It all sounds exhausting, what a horrible position you're in.

I'm posting from two angles. Firstly, so sorry about the loss of your child. My parents lost a child (a younger sibling) and their extremely strong marriage was rocked to it's foundations. They came through it, but are very aware that they are in the minority. How dare your fil behave towards you both in light of what's happened ?

He sounds like an ignorant, self-absorbed bully. It's such a cliche, but who really should or would care about the opinions of such a person ? Nothing he says to you has any validity. His moral compass is so off, he's irrelevant.

This leads to my second angle. I am several months into nc with my pils, due to the behaviour of my fil. He is a pompous, self-righteous bully - and a classic narcissist. Fortunately I did not have a troubled relationship with him. I was however aware of the kind of man he was, and trod carefully.

His true colours did however show through eventually, and his despicable behaviour has had far-reaching consequences. As a result - for the sake of MY own well being- I told my dp that I could not and would not see his father again. The thought of it made me physically sick, and I told him that I would not put myself through that. He accepted that, but is now nc with my family !

My dp still sees his family and takes our dc with him. This is difficult for me (the dc part) but at least I don't have any worries about them being around them, despite my fil's recent behaviour.

I did have the chance to tell my fil what I thought of him, and to a certain extent it was satisfying. However, like your fil, he never considers himself to be in the wrong, and sees himself as the victim in all situations. Interestingly he is nc with his sibling, and has fallen out with many people over the years.

Even if you did tell your fil what you thought of him, it wouldn't make any difference. He will never change, you will always be in the wrong. Fine. As long as you know how things really are, you can live with whatever decision you make. You will seethe and mutter to yourself from time to time, but he's one solitary person, who care's what's going on in his head?

As for making your dh choose between you and his family. This is a false choice - he can have both, and you are not forcing the choice. You need to stay mentally well and strong for you and the children. He is an adult, he needs to respect your decision.

My dp did not support me at key times throughout the events with his family. He knows exactly how I feel about this, our relationship may not survive. I see him now living day-to-day with the fall out of his decision, and it's not a pretty sight. I think he knows he's made a dreadful mistake, but he had to make it. Better I know now that this is how he can behave towards me, than 10 years down the line. It's been a huge shock, there may be no going back. But better to have faced it than I live a lie to avoid what I may not want to know.

My advice, think of yourself. NC with the pils - they're foul. Your dh sees them as and when he wants to. If they want to see the dc, they come to you, stay in a b&b, and he takes them. If he can't accept the decision that keeps you happy and stable, he doesn't deserve you.

If your DH finds it hard to face up to his father and won't because he can't bring himself to 'rock the boat', then presumably he feels that the boat won't be that rocked if he chooses the alternative of doing nothing. At some point he may need the push of knowing that it will, and he could thank you for that in time.

It sounds like you're off the hook re the PIL contact for the next few months, so hopefully that will give you and your DH some time to focus on your relationship.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but it sounds like you feel your DH doesn't respect you and you're hoping that behaving in a certain way will make him respect you...? What way is that, and how will it make him respect you?

Just wanted to add something about your alleged "controlling" behaviour.

I have read that when people grow up in a dysfunctional family with a narcissistic parent, they (subconsciously) meet a partner who becomes their buffer. By this I mean the partner ends up being the one who chats to the parent(s), buys the presents, arranges the get togethers etc. From your post you seem to suggest you fulfilled this role.

I was a classic "buffer" and it creeped me out to realise just how ingrained all these behaviours are.

You sound like a normal, well-organised mum, not controlling at all.

I am very sorry that you lost your child, you have all been through so much.

It makes your PIL's behaviour seem even worse. It's really good that your H is seeking to reduce contact, they live far away and there are no visits planned for many months. Hope they don't spring a surprise visit - something you might want to consider how to handle just in case, the usual MN response is something like "That just doesn't work for us I'm afraid" like a broken record and no apology or reasons for them to pick at!

What gives you the impression that your H doesn't respect you?

And definitely not controlling re your DS's boots! Not that it would matter if you had been, parents are entitled to make decisions about their DC!

Sorry I haven't replied yet, it's been a hectic night here.

DH got a promotion, after 2 years of misery trying. It's wonderful, should make him much happier at work and remove some of our financial pressure. We have spent the evening celebrating as a family, which has been nice. I still feel quite tense and nervous, but DH is picking up on that and trying to reassure me.

I do feel crap as one of the first things he wanted to do was tell pil, which he did eventually via text, but I have to tell myself that it's natural and would be very hard for him not to. I also tell myself that although mil enables fil, she is not a bad person.

A few updates.

We had a tiff today. My sister sent him a birthday present of a photo of our son in a frame. He reacted badly to me saying what a random present and what am I meant to do with this. I got upset and annoyed. He apologised, said he didn't think, and that it was a lovely thought and a lovely picture, even if he isn't a photo frame person. From my part, I accepted his apology and moved on. I struggle to let things go so although this sounds small, it's not. We are making progress.

DH has told me he respects and loves me and always will. That he appreciates the things I do and doesn't think I'm controlling. When I asked him, he said if it comes to it, and he hopes it won't, that he would choose me over his parents. He tried really hard tonight to reassure me. We even held hands watching TV, which even during our recent improvements, we haven't been doing. He has also agreed to read any bits of toxic parents which I might find relevant (I didnt tell him the title!). I also mentioned the role of 'buffer' as mentioned above by dusters, and he completely agreed that I am in that position.

I'm going to try and respond to some of your points. Thank you all for taking the time to write to me, I really appreciate it.

joyful I am going to stand up for myself by laying out my terms and conditions for seeing/speaking to pil. I just want DH to have the confidence to do the same, to stand up for his marriage and family. It wasn't just me pil were criticising, it was our whole relationship.

shove no fear I won't hesitate to let DH know when his behaviour is unacceptable. We are going to work at our relationship still, as we were doing before this situation occurred. We know we have a long way to go, but before this neither of us realised how much of DH's issues were probably tied to his upbringing and his fog. If he didn't have those issues, then he wouldn't be scared to talk to his dad, if he wasn't scared, he wouldn't go on the attack to me, and then a fight would be avoided. It's a vicious cycle.

I need him to know I am not his enemy and won't react to him with anger every time unlike his dad , that we are a team.

shadows it is sad. Wrt respect, I was responding back to your post, saying that if DH can't respect me for distancing myself from his toxic parents then he is not worth having. My hope is that he will understand and will respect that choice. I'm just still scared that he is so entwined with them at this stage, that if I were to say I was never seeing them again, that I would lose. I also don't think it's fair on dh. I think decent alternatives (they come here and stay in a hotel) are a good compromise though.

dusters thank you for your post, and I'm sorry you have had such a hard time of it too. I'm a bit scared of that, that DH will go or threaten to go nc with my family to get back at me. They have their own issues but nothing like this. For a start, they genuinely like my husband, to the extent if I complain about him they always give him the benefit of the doubt and ask me what my part was! I don't complain to them much. They can be hard work though and its not easy for DH.

temporary I do fear that DH might not respect my choice and reasons if I go low or no contact. I hope that with time and therapy, this will become easier for him as he understands the damage which has been done. He is coming off a lifetime of sweeping problems under the carpet and moving on; I think the realisation that that isn't going to happen here will be difficult.

Thank you for your kind words duck

I will keep posting. I'm quite perturbed by the fact that DH texted about his promotion ( he has not yet said he will be in touch when he is ready) as I feel it sends the message that all is well with him. He already told me that when we left theirs, he gave the impression that he was fine and I was the only one with the problem.

Which I suppose doesn't really matter but I would love if a) he was angry at their behaviour and b) willing to tell them that. Instead of taking the easy road (but when doesn't he) and letting them believe it's his crazy controlling wife with the problem.

I just find pils whole set up weird.

They don't socialise. Have no friends. The only people they see are fils mum, and mils brother and sil. That's it. Don't leave the house to socialise. No external hobbies etc. It seems like such an empty existence.

I see DH at risk of replicating this. Which is fine if he is happy, but he isn't. He is a lovely sociable guy when he wants to be, he just never wants to be. Yet when I 'force' the issue and invite my friends to stay or drag DH places with me, he has a great time.

Needless to say, my upbringing was different and I am different. I have a small circle of very close longstanding friends from school (scattered around the UK), a couple of very close newer (5 years) friends from work (again scattered) and a few local friends ive made since becoming a mum, who I am starting to get closer to.

I think it's impotatnt to have these non family outlets. Otherwise we run the risk of becoming so introverted that we can never see another pov or way of doing things. I am an equal to my friends. Maybe if DH had friends he would see he is their equal (as opposed to subordinate as he is to his dad). Maybe if fil had friends he would see he is their equal as opposed to their superior.

I had to reply to this thread as I have been there.

I have been with dh since I was 16 (I'm 31 in a couple of weeks). The first year was fine, but then we had a blip. I had a mmc, and whilst I wanted to talk about it he didn't. As a result I started an affair with someone who DID listen, and we broke up for a while. In the time we broke up I found out I was pregnant again and my affair disintegrated. Once the om was out of the picture dh came back into my life, very slowly, and when I lost the baby again he supported me through it.

However his parents (especially his father) couldn't forgive me. Dh was seeing me in secret. We weren't officially back together but knowing how desperate I was for a baby he had agreed to get me pregnant and then walk away, in a bid to stop me doing something stupid. It took a while for me to fall pregnant though, and after six months it became obvious we were falling back together. By my 18th birthday I realised that the only thing holding him back was his family, specifically his father who would badmouth me all the time. I decided to take matters into my own hands and went to see him. I told him I had made a mistake. I took my notes from the pregnancy to prove I had had the miscarriage as (because I had miscarried in another country) that was under doubt in their minds. I told him I loved his son, and whilst I'd made a mistake I had learned from it.

Finally he managed to see that I wasn't trying to hurt his son. They still blocked us getting our own place, but I was allowed back in the family home and things improved. When I finally fell pregnant again they had a bit of a wobble (I know the words "don't accept it's yours without a DNA test" were said!) but by the time our dd was born, and dh proposed to me they were over the moon, and you'd have thought they had never doubted me!

However we have still had issues. And after a row with DHs brother we went no contact when dd was about eighteen months old. Interestingly the brother is now nc with the whole family (supposedly because they sided with me after the row, which was to do with me not allowing DHs sister to take dd out for the day when she was ten months old... She got over it, her brother and his wife didn't!).

Fil and I don't always see eye to eye. We have had disagreements over the years about his language, I'm sure he thinks I'm snobby because dd hasn't gone to the local secondary that both dh and I attended but to grammar, we have differing views on lots of things. But I have learnt to bite my tongue when it isn't important and dh has learnt to support me when it is important. They have helped us out financially when we have been desperate, and I know that deep down they love the kids (we now have 5) and we rub along ok.

In a way, your lucky because your In laws are four hours away (mine are living in the same street!), but family is important, so please try to resolve it. I feel guilty that my bil has no contact with his family supposedly because of Me. The rest of the family tell me not to, it wasn't my fault. But I put my foot down. As a result my dh, who was close to his brother, hasn't spoken to him in over a decade and my children don't know their uncle.

Just had to reply to your last post.

My pils sound very much like yours in the ways you describe. They do have a small circle of friends, some long standing, others more recent. However, they are very judgemental, so their friendships are very conditional. I have observed them, for example, decide to cut contact to a minimum for some perceived slight. Forgetting to phone if somebody's been unwell, or failing to send a thank you card, that kind of thing.

They have no hobbies, always prefer to be in their own home (very controlling) and rarely have a good word to say about anybody.

I think this all contributes to why our pils are like they are. If they had fuller lives, with healthy friendships and good family ties they wouldn't have time or the inclination to interfere in your life/marriage. It's a vicious circle. Because of the way they are they live as they do, and because they live like this their behaviour is unacceptable.

My dp also finds it hard to make new friends, although he has done so on occasion. I see a tendency in him to feel secure in his little bubble, he rarely strays outside his comfort zone. I sound more like you as regards friends. I would strongly advise you to maintain your friendships, and take the lead as you are in involving your dh in things he would usually resist.

I feel when people have grown up with such a controlling parent they can't/won't step outside what they have always been told is "the way". You can't be their therapist, only show them another way. If they don't want to follow you can't make them.

From your posts you sound very intertwined with your dh - that's not a criticism. I know you've suffered a terrible event in your lives, and you're actively working on your relationship, but is it a little suffocating ? You sound like you're constantly trying to weave your way through a maze, can you step back a bit ?

Ive never felt suffocated... Maybe he does?

Much of my week is taken up with kids, all of both our early evenings are kids, then late evening and weekends are either shared or spent on our own interests. I didn't think we were any more entwined than any other couple. Bar of course that it is exacerbated by DH not having local friends or hobbies outside the house.

Pil sound very similar dusters. It's just so unfamiliar to me. And I didn't see this side of DH until we left (I lived half an hour from him, he lived with his parents and then we moved together 6 hours away, think going from far north to south) as he socialised with me and my friends, and he has a best friend in his home town. This unwillingness to socialise has come with leaving his home town and with working full time.

Had a difficult day yesterday, I'm feeling pretty exhausted trying to keep this all going in the face of DH's selfishness and apparent lack of care for our relationship. Starting to realise that this is who he is and he has no interest in changing it. I'm married to an oversized child.

Also I keep thinking of the unpleasant things pil - fil do, and recognising these traits in DH, and feeling so downtrodden from it at the uphill battle we have.

Smallish things like getting angry at bad drivers - not directed to them - and it creates such an unpleasant atmosphere in the car. DH has started doing this.

There is a farmers market once a month here, and we have always had a lovely time meandering around, buying stuff, looking at stalls, tasting stuff etc. We took pil and fil just marched through the market and home, wouldn't even stop to let us look at stuff. It was bloody horrible.

We were face timing about a month ago, and I asked fil how his recent work trip to London was. He replied "full of coloured people". So, racist, disrespectful, and ignorant. Why dont I deserve a decent answer? Why do my kids have to see racism without DH pulling his dad up on it?

I KNOW thinking about this stuff probably isn't healthy, but I can't seem to stop myself. I feel really, really angry. And I'm getting angry at DH that he has enabled this for so long.