Terrible situation with pil

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I really need some help. Apologies, this will be long.
If you could check my previous threads for background, I'd appreciate it.

DH and I have been on the rocks for a year or so, since having DS.
We had DD late last year and have been working at our marriage.

Apparently not hard enough.

We still fight, still name call, I still cry. Nothing physical, but still pretty abusive. Probably on both sides.

We recently went to his family home 4 hours away to celebrate his birthday. We took the DC. First 2 days were fine.

Third day was his birthday. He was meant to get a lie in ( rarely gets one and was meant to be a birthday treat) but his dad woke him up. He often does this when we visit there. This put DH into a foul mood, and the whole day seemed to go wrong.

Someone was smoking in the house. Before we visited, DH said he had made sure this wouldn't happen. Dd has just had bronchitis and still has a cough, and DS was prem. anyway I asked DH to ask his mum (approachable and understanding) to stop it. I asked nicely. He bit my head off and told me I was looking to be miserable and start an argument.

Trying to put DS boots on, he was screaming cos he is knackered. Fil came over and took the boots away telling me not to put shoes on DS which don't fit. (He wore them at nursery 2 days before). DH came in and saw DS screaming so he started whining about how stressful kids are.

We went for a walk but DH wanted to go right at DS naptime so he was very, very grumpy. Ditto it was over DS lunchtime, so he was hungry. DH combated this by feeding him on the go in his buggy. Not the end of the world but not great as there was no visible end to the meal, so again DS kicked off. He is 23 months btw.

Went to leave and DH sat in the car with the kids while I struggled to collapse and clean (muddy wheels) the new buggy, and to heave it into the boot. When we got into the car I told him that pissed me off and he totally kicked off at me. Saying why was I having a go at him on his birthday. It escalated and I told him that the nap/lunch/DS situation pissed me off too. So DH was really angry at this point.

We got back to pils, I bathed the kids, and went to breast feed and settle dd for a nap. DH came up in between and had a go at me telling me I'd ruined his birthday and calling me names. Then I went downstairs to feed DS. While I was giving him his dinner, DH went to have a drink with a friend. He didn't tell me this, just his dad.

I got DS fed and to bed, (took ages as he was unsettled in strange house and travel cot), and went downstairs. Mil asked me where DH was and I said I didn't know. Fil told us, and then they started quizzing me why DH hadn't told me and what was wrong.

I never usually tell them our problems, but I was already upset that he had disappeared without telling me, leaving me to deal with kids alone and then sit with his parents, and I started to cry. Told them what had happened that day and they started having a go at me. "What did you say to make him angry" "it always takes 2" "you need counselling".
Fil also mentioned something which happened 8 years ago when I was a teenager (DH and I had a row, he told me to leave, so I did, I walked out of his house at midnight) as evidence that I cause arguments.

That really hurt, he doesn't know me that well and I'm married and a mum now.

Anyway I went to bed, and DH came in around 4.
I got up with kids the next morning and left DH sleeping, he deserved at least one lie in.

Anyway, pil started in on me again. More of the same. There is so much that was said but it's hard to all go into here. Things like I'm argumentative, I need help, I twist everything, DH doesn't do anything wrong without me provoking him. Fil insisted on going to wake DH up again. I asked pil not to mention yet that we had talked and we could try and enjoy the rest of the weekend. They agreed.

I went to put DS down for a nap and when I came down, they had told DH everything. He was totally overwhelmed. So he starred trying to talk to me, but pil kept jumping in and speaking for him. We both need counselling and I need individual counselling as I have issues. We are going to destroy our kids. I'm controlling, I'm a narcissist, I think they are monsters, I hate their nationality (I'm 1/4 that nationality and it's in the UK), they lied about things I was saying, mil telling FIL that I was angry about the smoking which I wasn't. They told me I (not we, I) shouldn't have bought a big house as now DH doesn't have enough money (I'm on mat leave and DH has NEVER had enough money). Mil told me that they have seen me with my face like thunder when they tease me cos I hate it and I can't dictate other people's senses of humour (I HATE being teased, it reminds me of being bullied at school) And loads more I can't even remember. It was cruel, abusive, and in front of my baby. I went upstairs to get away from it but felt totally trapped. Not once did DH support me.

This was about 2pm. An hour later DS was climbing the walls so I dressed the kids and went to get the buggy. Told DH I was taking them to playground. Fil over heard and told me I was irresponsible taking dd out in 3degree weather in the afternoon as she had bronchitis and can't be around fag smoke. Told me that if I was going to crucify him for smoking in his own house that no way should I be taking her for a walk.

I said that I take them out every day at home, that fresh air is good for them, and I would be happy to check with the gp about the danger of smoke and benefits of fresh air. Fil was just really snide telling me "oh of course you know what's best you know everything and it's always your way" I just went upstairs crying.

DH came up and we just sat there, he was accusatory at first "you are trying to drive me away from my family" but then he said he was sorry and it was awful. There was a lot of back and forth of this.

We slept (he went and spoke to his parents, not sure what was said but apparently he defended me, then had dinner with his family) and then left the next morning. He insisted that the kids get to say goodbye, which tbh felt like I had my arms chopped off. I left without seeing pil. This was 2 days ago and no contact yet.

I feel gutted. I like mil but there is backstory with fil and I feel like I hate him. I'm certainly scared of him, and so is DH. I feel like I never want to see them again and never want the kids round them, which just isn't possible.

This is a pil post btw. I know I have big problems with DH, but I love him and we are going to still work at it. With counselling too. I think he has been very damaged by his dad and though I'm hurt and angry at him, I also feel very sorry for him.

He recognises his dad has problems and has done a bad thing, but traditionally he and his family sweep problems under the carpet and I just can't do that this time. And he loves them.

Any hand holding, advice, support would be so welcome. I feel I am at the start of a very long, difficult journey. I would like the end of it to be DH, DC, and me, happy.

Do I just dictate to DH about our kids then and me/them seeing pil?

He just has to trust that I would not leave the dc alone with her (and I don't, not the youngest anyway, the eldest is at high school now so slightly different situation, they are often not there to visit anyway, youngest is 2.8). So her influence is limited and her time with them is closely monitored. She knows that if she puts a foot wrong I will tell her now. I have changed the dynamics in our relationship from mother and daughter to equals now and I won't have her mess me about anymore. That said dh and I still argue occasionally about the way she treats me. But I am doing my best in a very difficult situation (I am an only child and my mum has no other family at all).

I'm not sure what the distance is and I can understand how you feel but I do wonder if for your own sanity you need to leave them to it a bit more either by going out on your own more when you go there or letting him take them to visit for a shorter time. I split up from my dds dad when she was 6 months old and he had her at his parents every other weekend from the word go. It was hard but as much as we had our problems I trusted him as a parent. (He wasn't the one I split from when dd was 6). If you trust your dh to be a good parent perhaps it's something to consider. It's hard to read between the lines in your posts and to see if you trust him or not.

I think if my dh ever pressured me to end contact with my mum it would cause a huge, huge problem for us.

I don't trust him because he openly admits and demonstrates his fear of his dad comes before protecting his kids.

E.g. The smoking around dd with recent bronchitis. He would rather that happened then he asked his dad to stop. He does recognise this is a huge issue and wants to address it in counselling.

Kids are not going without me. Dd is 5 months and bf and DS is 23 months and would miss me for 3/4 nights!

I think fairy if DH stood up to his parents and showed they were equals, as you have, I would feel differently. He is only right at the start of learning how to do that.

I can see what you're saying. I think your dh is about 3 steps behind where I am. Firstly and foremost he needs to realise he is an adult now and he needs to stand up to them. Perhaps if you explained to him that in order for you to back off a bit he needs to step up to them more? I do know that is what you've been trying to do.

I feel for you.

That is a tough hand to play OP, and it sounds like you are working really hard at it. This bit of what you said jumped out at me:

"we want them to know how out of line they are now and have been in the past, and that we are a family which fil in particular can't drive a wedge between. That they need to change"

The only bit of that you can realistically expect is that you become the family they can't drive apart, because that is the only bit of it you control. Be that family, and fuck them if they try to split you up.

Making them realise they need to change? Don't hold your breath.

It seems like you're hoping for a big cathartic row in which you finally get to tell FiL what a bastard he is, in terms he can't deny, and you finally force them to apologise or accept some fault. I don't blame you, in your position is have mentally rehearsed that argument a million times. But it won't happen. It won't be cathartic, it will be a big mess. He won't be backed into accepting he's wrong, he'll just file it as more evidence you are argumentative and a bringer of trouble. Focus on your end of things, detach far enough to get the space to do it, and make a deal with each other that your PiLs' way of being a family is not going to be passed down. Good luck.

Just be clear that you will not go to their house or allow DC to go without you.

PIL can come and stay in a B and B near you if they want to see DH ad DC or DH can go there on his own. If relationship improves, you will reconsider. Don't get into discussion with PIL about it- no need.

Take control of your situation. PIL don't sound very nice people. Life is too short.

he'll just file it as more evidence you are argumentative and a bringer of trouble.

tiny You are completely right. I think perhaps what I would like is for one day, DH to have the confidence in himself and belief in me to set pil straight as to my character, whether they believe him or not. And that has to be unprompted, something DH wants to do and chooses to do on his own.

I just want them to know that he supports me and we are the team, not him and them. But we aren't even at that stage ourselves yet, DH has to get to that point, that he is the patriarch figure in his family, not his dad.

DH's worst behaviours over the past year or two have all been centered around his family, when they are involved in some way. The holiday for instance. I'm just only seeing it now.

lulu I agree with you. I hope I have the courage and the maturity to stick to it and to put my reasoning across calmly and clearly.

I wake up each day dreading that DH will tell me I'm keeping him from his parents. He already told me that I was preventing him from talking to them. This was after he unprompted told me he wasn't going to talk to them until he had sorted out his feelings and wouldnt go behind my back. Its like he feels guilty at HIS decision and so it's easier to blame me.

It's going to be a long battle. He has already told me several times that what they did was bad to me, not the kids. He doesn't understand that disrespecting their mother, abusing their mother, is terrible for the kids. Seeing the casual racism, bullying etc it's unhealthy. He will understand I hope one day soon.

Interestingly, fil went NC with his siblings some years ago, no idea why, and didn't let them see his kids. His little nuclear family, wife and kids was more important.

Yet the same doesn't apply to DH's nuclear family, not from fils or DH's perspective. Fil seems to see our family as an extension of his to control, not our own stand alone unit which DH and I run.

Do I just dictate to DH about our kids then and me/them seeing pil?

I think the best is to keep calm and say that you are not prepared to see them any more since they clearly dislike you so much and you're not willing to put up with all that verbal abuse. Also because there is a health issue involved and a pattern of not listening, you do not think the kids should go either. (It's the pattern that is the worst thing).

You can repeat the reasons why as often as needed. The key is to keep calm in all circumstances.

They can see them outside for a few hours if they come and stay in a hotel but that's it.

You do need to be able to trust your husband that he won't let FIL steamroller him into things he shouldnt allow with the kids and also, very importantly, that FIL won't come out with this racist crap etc OR put you down in their hearing. If you think he can't / won't challenge them, then I'm afraid that it's better to keep back until they can accept that reasonable standards of behaviour are needed.

Have you and your husband read Toxic Parents?

Also if they send you a letter, don't open it immediately. If you have any very good friends who could read it for you first and give you the gist to prepare you, that would be a good idea.

Haven't read toxic parents and tbh I think DH is nowhere near ready. He doesn't think they are toxic or that this is a big problem. He is insistent his dad loves me. No one who loves someone would let 8 years of rage spill out like that, or try and undermine their marriage.

I think DH will accept that I'm protecting myself by staying away, and that since he can't protect the kids, they should stay away. It's up to him to be able to set the standard of behaviour he wants his kids to see, so if that takes years, then so be it.

I know if they contact DH it will be via messaging or text, and that he will reply. I just hope he has the courage to tell me, to not pretend all is normal, and I have to remember that never again do I have to send a card, facetime with the kids, or email photos and videos.

Wow! One thing that springs tomy mind OP is how hard you are working to protect your family unit, you certainly are a lioness protecting your cubs as I would be.

Does your husband make the same commitment ?

I'm glad that you have sought help. I really hope it helps and as for losing your child nothing hurts like a loss of that magnitude.

One suggestion I'd like to make is that you need to stop the name calling. I expect your counsellor has picked up on that. It is so detrimental to a relationship. It screams lack of respect for the other partner. I don't agree with the bricks and stones will hurt my bones but calling will not hurt me.

I think we retain that memory of hurtful names far more, especially when they come with the red, angry, yelling face . It's almost like our memories take a snapshot of the scenario.

Everyone is entitled to their anger and to vent it as long as there are some ground rules nothing gets broken, no one gets hurt and there's no name calling.

The death of your daughter will have an impact for the rest of your lives, that goes without saying and you will always be finding creative solutions to manage it.

Grief stirs up all kinds of emotions anger being one of them. It's almost like the two of you have this boiling pot of anger that's just too hard to hold at times but the positives are you love one another and you want this marriage to work and you are prepared to work at it.

That's a good starting off point.

I feel like you need to work on how you handle this anger and grief in a safe environment.

He gets angry, you cry. You get angry, he gets angrier. Very, very powerful emotions are at work here as demonstrated at his parents house with another angry man which obviously you just stay away from or put the boundaries in place stay at a hotel etc . Of course you won't go telling them your problems again as this man is not your friend. Your mil can only do so much as she is controlled by his anger too.

When your husband is angry Id be inclined to say I can see your angry, I'm prepared to listen to you but if you start name calling I'm leaving the room/ house or whatever.

I've seen really really angry men turn their anger into deep sobbing when you set boundaries and when it's safe to do so hold them and let them cry it out.

Good luck Op . I'm so glad you are getting help. You can turn this around .

Aaah dowser your last sentence made me cry. I'm so scared that I cant. Scared that I will lose DH, and my children will be partially brought up in what I consider to be a volatile, unpleasant environment.

The thought of dd being bullied or DS growing up to be a bully, or a casual racist is just terrible.

DS LOVES his food and is a bit of a chunk, but it's evening out as he leaves babyhood. Fil calls him weight related names all the time, and it's all very jovial, but each one hurts me as my son has a name and he is more than just a chunk. I don't want his self esteem to be damaged. DH has weight problems and self esteem problems and i wonder if this is where it all comes from. (I have weight problems too but mine is more related to 3 pregnancies in 3 years!)

We haven't started with counsellor yet, just been using relate. It's a 6-8 week referral period so hopefully will get an appointment soon. We both need a lot of help managing anger. I need help managing my feelings of worthlessness and urges to self harm to cope.

I feel that if I have a successful relationship with a partner who doesn't allow anyone to run me down, I will feel less worthless. Because in my day to day life, my job and friends, I don't feel worthless. Only in the context of my family and our wider extended family (his).

I have been 'controlling, since the day I was born, but this extends to things like list making for holidays, wanting to pin down dates for visits, wanting to adhere to a loose napping schedule. According to DH, it's not something he has an issue with and he has certainly never mentioned it as one, and he says that he is so laid back that our family needs someone to balance that. It is something I'm sensitive about, so for fil to use it against me so viciously really was digging the knife in.

I have been trying to think of ways they could have seen this as a negative (all of them lol) and it extends from things like saying DS has to nap, to he can't have more than one kitkat, to writing down our calorie intake (DH asked me to record his as he cba). But I don't control DH, and I certainly before this haven't argued with FIL. so I think again he is taking one of his negative traits, expanding it and projecting it onto me, just cos I am the organiser in my family.

The nasty things he has said have really hurt me. Outwardly I'm confident, but I was bullied at school and that scared upset little girl is still there inside me. So each day I find myself questioning am I controlling, am I a narcissist, do I cause all of DH's bad behaviour. It's a very upsetting place to be in. I wish I had the confidence to say I'm not these things, and believe it. Even when DH says I'm not, my brain tells me he is just saying it to keep the peace and cos it's what I want to hear.

We have got into a terrible habit of name calling, even when not in anger. E.g. I was doing an online test yesterday and messed something up, so called myself a dick and a few other things.

I will talk to DH about both of us curbing it even when it's not intended or hurt or said in anger.

I tell you what, prior to this I was the one arranging holidays for us, inviting them down here, maybe being too persistent cos I wanted them to feel welcome. Well never again. Not my bloody job or responsibility. IF I ever feel like I can handle it, DH can sort it all out and he can be the controlling one. And if everyone else is too laid back to arrange things, then so much the better as it'll never happen.

Before I always arranged dates, reminded DH to take annual leave, arranged cattery if needed, transport, packed. No fucking way, not now. And certainly not when I suspect those organisational traits have been used as a stick to beat me with.

Just wanted to pick up on something.... just because dh was picked on at school doesn't excuse or explain his name calling and horrid behaviour. Not all those who were bullied or abused go on to be bullies or abusers. Again it's about taking responsibility for yourself as an adult and knowing that behaviour is wrong.

I do think a lot of the problems you have seem to come from a dh who is unprepared to recognise himself as a grown up.

(I was bullied very badly at school and actually changed schools because of it, missing a year in the process for various reasons. Never once have I ever name called or picked on anyobe).

No he wasn't picked on at school, he did it to others. Which is despicable and he is only starting to realise that now.

You are right that he has not embraced being a grown up, nor a father or husband and all that entails. Nor will his family allow him to. I think he needs a lot of help if I'm honest.

I was severely bullied and have never bullied anyone either.

Pil take everything as an argument btw.

DH and I were singing ten green bottles to DS, I started it.

I sang "hanging on the wall"
DH said "isn't it sitting on the wall"
Me "oh that doesn't sound right, I think my bottles will hang"
Me singing along, suddenly remember while laughing "they STAND on the wall!"
DH laughed too and sang along.

Very lighthearted, not an argument in any way, just a tiny, tiny interaction.
Mil tells us we always argue and to stop being so childish. Making me feel shit, stopping all the singing, and allowing her to believe that we argue all the time.

They are just terrible aren't they.

They sound a bit like my mum actually. She is convinced everyone is being aggressive and angry when actually she is the one who is! I think it's a control thing, a way of knocking you down. Dh and I argue sometimes, and sometime we do name call in a fun way - I mean playfully I might call him a dickhead and he might call me a twat, sounds ridiculous writing it down, we're quite sensible really but it's just a laugh to us and things like if one of us says "I love you" the other will say "I'm fond of you..." that sort of thing. But my mum finds it all horrid, takes it all too seriously and gets offended and angry - that's part of the reason we don't see her together anymore. If you and your dh are happy about the way you communicate like the green bottles song then that's fine and not for anyone else to comment on.

It's interesting that he was the one who picked on others though. I read it the other way round for some reason. I think having been the bully and you having been the victim before you both need to be careful not to revert to those previous forms of yourself. I think because his dad is quite heavy he's picked it up from him to be honest.

No we do the dickhead / twat thing. Do the I love you / well I quite like you, so I do get it and don't see it as weird.

We just need to draw boundaries from happy life to arguments. But as I said we had started to argue much more healthily until this visit.

DH shares many traits with his dad. I hope he can recognise and reject them.

We all need a bit of control in our lives otherwise as you say trips wouldn't happen, nothing would get down.

If balanced its normal. Imagine living in a household where everyone is so laid back that you go for the cat food, cupboard is empty. You go to switch on the light...whoops been cut off...no one paid the bill. Go to take the car out, no tax, no petrol, no insurance . You get the picture. We need some control in the shape of organisation but you need a bit of laissez faire a bit of lee way too.

I tend to do the organising of trips in our household because I'm good at it. OH does the things he's good at. Division of labour but neither of us sees the other as controlling.

Glad you recognise how destructive the name calling is. My line would be call me a name and I'm taking myself out of your way.

Remember the only person you can change is you but like throwing a stone into a pond as you change the others around you have to change. The still water ripples out with the action of the stone.

I'm sorry I can't help you with self harm. I have no knowledge of it and it's something I would never, ever inflict on myself. I'm so clumsy . I'm always burning myself with hot water and cutting myself with knives so I won't even go there. I just hope you get the help you need.

Re.... The loss of your daughter. You didn't say if you had help with that. Cruse are very good and so are compassionate friends. These are people who have often lost a child themselves.

Having three pregnancies in three years, the loss of a child and two little ones under two...that's an awful lot of stress you've both had there. Be kind to yourselves. When you can you need to put you and your husband at the centre of things. Hard when you're drowning under a welter of childcare but do try to get some time for yourselves.

As for the in laws. Put it down to experience. Vow never to stay over again . Give hubby lots of permission to visit on his own or 1 overnight stay in a hotel if you go with kids.

As youre 4 hours away I'm sure you not going to see too much of them anyway.id sens them pics of kids etc with a little bit of info about them but keep it businesslike.

I never liked my fil. He wasn't a nasty man but he had been a very selfish man when his kids were little. He was a male chauvinist, a dour scot , misogynistic . My mil was a lovely woman. We lived in the same town and I just kept my contact to a minimum. He mellowed towards the end of his life but it was too late then. We had a tolerable relationship. If we hadn't been thrown together by marriage our paths would not have crossed.

Stay strong. You are doing well.

the arguing thing - it sounds very much like your PILs can't accept any perfectly normal, perfectly friendly differing of views. (I have a father like this, he can't accept any disagreement at all. Damaging, very. Leaves you unable to cope with normal give-and-take).

it sounds like again, they're the ones with big anger problems and assigning those problems to others.

Toxic Parents -is- worth a read. It's nicely structured and I suspect you might recognise quite a few things. Then you can gently refer to those things now and then with your husband.

I don't actually self harm, just want to. I'd like to find another way to cope with my emotions without wanting to hurt myself.

Thank you all for posting, they are helping me feel strong. I will continue to post if that's ok. I think I'll need a lot of help and support.

I will buy that book today thank you

OP, I have toxic inlaws and parents (well P and I aren't together anymore so ex inlaws is technically correct but ykwim). The overwhelming vibe I'm getting from all your posts is anxiety about what PIL think about you, what DH allows them to think about you etc. you feel wronged and that's understandable but ... FUCK what they think. Honestly, fuck what they think. Let go, just let it all go. All the anger and wounded feelings and wanting DH to tell them that they've got you wrong, wanting him to defend you. All the memories of things FIL has said and how hurt you felt ... Just let it all go. Don't let their anger and bile infect you. I know it's hard, I have been there and back and got several t shirts. As you walk through life people form all sorts of opinions about you, some good and some bad. Pils aren't nice rational people. They will never believe that you are lovely, they will never respect you, or your boundaries. So fuck 'em. You've had great advise on everything else, personally I don't think children gain anything from having contact with people who dislike one of their parents, so id just go no contact but you seem adamant you won't do this.

When you have to spend time with toxic people you just need that mantra of "fuck you, shitface" going through your head. Expect them to be vile, have a little bingo card in your head and smile to yourself every time they say something toxic because you predicted they would and oh look true to form, here we go again. And DONT let them get in your head. You know you aren't who they think you are, so do your kids. No one else's opinion matters. Honestly it really doesn't. If he takes the boots off you just give him a death stare, stand up take the boots back and continue putting them on. Don't say a word. If they start ranting at you about what you are doing just turn away and ignore them or walk out the room. Disengage, don't let them get to you and stand your ground. Rise above it. Let it all run off you like water off a ducks back. They want you locked in this battle but you can't win it. Not when DH isn't in the right mental place to fight your corner. So you need to evade the battle. You CAN do it. You WILL get there. You have to, your kids can't grow up in the middle of this.

The attempt at communication has begun. Missed call from mil to DH. He ignored it and has told me that he wants to explain to her that he will be the one to get in touch, when he is ready.

I feel sick to my stomach.

I know they will be blaming me for this. I know they will think this is tiny and they have done nothing wrong.

I know none of that matters, but I just don't have the confidence in DH or our marriage that he will choose me.