Dear DH

[AccordingtoSteve]

It's started so sweetly. I thought you were everything I ever wanted in a man. Vulnerable, yet attentive. Polite and unassuming. You were the antithesis of my ex and I welcomed you into my world with ease and comfort. Thinking all the while you were actually how you portrayed yourself to be.

Then we had words. I cannot remember what happened or why but you were here, staying with me and something was said you took offence to. You then took yourself up to the top of the garden to sulk, for over two hours.

I was bereft. Cried. What was it I had done so wrong to you to make you act this way? I Questioned and interrogated myself, because it was all me and my behaviour that had caused this wasn't it. You told me that.

I should have run here.

The next time. You came to stay, you had written a list of things you thought I had done while we were together that you saw as wrong. It was quite long. I was again devastated. I didn't realise that this was the first chink of my armour being chipped away. Chip away you continued to do and have been ever since.

I should have run here.

For years and months we have stayed together. Our arguments being about your behaviour, yet twisted around to make me think it was mine, after all; I am accusatory and proportioning blame at you where there was none. I don't let you get a word in. I don't let you speak. I get loud and angry. You don't have a voice. I..am..out..of..order.

This is now the reason you don't speak. You are afraid I will accuse and blame. None of this is your fault. I get drunk. I get angry. You are just an innocent in this failing relationship. You have never acted in any way that is wrong.

Now we are here. It's the last post. We are both defensive and angry with each other. I say you have done something and then I get accused of it. You behave like a child and yet I am suddenly the childish one if I pull you up on it.

I try to explain. I am told that I have stated I have done nothing but accuse and make myself seem the better person. According to you, I am stating that I am perfect and you are not. This is not what I feel I have done but I am wracked with guilt and second guessing myself because this is what you have said. I am trying to talk, to sort this out. I am left feeling like crap because I have failed, once again.

My mind is blown now. I second and third guess everything about myself now. I am fucked. I am not whole. I don't thank you.

X posted sorry christina

The only problem we have with the NC thing is that we have the small matter of the youngest, so we need to be in touch about her and her contact with him.

This has all been going well so far to be fair. I don't want this to change. I want her to be happy about going to him and staying with him as she is choosing to do right now.

You don't have to date him, get a new phone, change your email address...only allow yourself to check the old ones once per week

We'll tell him the only thing you want to discuss for the foreseeable future is dd

and X post again..meh! sorry

Yes. This latest has thrown me.

Chris was right yesterday about me not being quite ready to sound the death knell on things and I am not. It feels like he is leading me to doing it, right now.

I am not going to say anything more tonight. I need more time to think and if I am not ready tomorrow either I shall just respond and say I agree, I need more time.

Got two horrendous work days approaching me right now.

Brain feels like scrambled eggs again!

Perhaps initially you need some counseling on your own? Maybe help straighten your head, I can imagine it is going round in circles

Xx

Hi Steve! I'm back.

You are doing great. I know how hard it is, how they get under your skin. I think maybe you should ask for absolutely no contact for at least a month, as Christina suggested. Is there any way your older daughter could have contact with him in regards to him seeing your youngest?

It doesn't sound like you want to get back with him, so why not put him out of his misery, and just tell him straight? I'm not sure if I missed something (I've been dipping in and out of the thread sorry!) but I'm not sure why you'd want to go to counselling, or not sure why you're arsed if he goes to counselling or not? He's not your problem any more! I know it's easy for me to say that, and I know I'm not doing what I should be doing myself in my situation (if that makes sense)

oh I dunno, you're doing so well, you got out, but it just seems to me he is trying to drag you back in. The same is happening in my life. But we've got to take a step back, and do what is right for us (and therefore our children)

sorry, waffling now. Just wanted to post on here before I collapse asleep. It's been a trying day for me xx

Sorry, I meant joint counselling.

Counselling for yourself may be a real help xx

steve, you are veering into dangerous territory here

why on earth are you engaging in conversations that lead up to "I want to start dating again" and you leave it open ended by not replying

mixed messages...he may be very open to reading the wrong ones to suit himself but you have to be much, much clearer and cut him off immediately when he talks about anything "us"

there is no "us" right ?

You are both right, I do need to get back to my work place options people and get something sorted out.

AF I Know I know I am being an idiot by not cutting the head off this "thing"

I just cannot bring myself to actually do the deed right now

There is definitely no "us" at all. I just don't know to deal with massive fall out it is going to cause.

I definitely do not feel strong enough to go through this just yet, I was hoping for more time.

if you "do not feel strong enough yet" what is the alternative ?

Set your own time frame, you are not answerable to him, but by engaging in conversation with him you are letting him into your head

He is in your home, kick him out because this was supposed to be you and dds happy place. You have been strong enough to leave so now take control over what happens next...no conversation, no discussion about " us"

This is your time now, you don't need to feel as if you are hitting your head against a brick wall any longer, you are free...live it and enjoy it

Ok, last message of the evening and I quote;

"Dating no. Counselling yes but you sort it out. Any other therapy is up to you"

Didn't want to leave this as it was tonight. I would not have been able to sleep with mithering over it. Turning everything off now and going to bed. Have horrible two days of work incoming :(

decent reply nods

Nope, no response is necessary. He didn't really ask for your opinion, did he? He just expressed his own thoughts on most of the issues. I wouldn't say anything about counseling, sex therapy , or whether or not you want to be 'together'. Even the way he phrased the dating thing wasn't really asking you a question, was it? It was a statement with a question mark, not a question.

If you feel you want to do the 'exit with counseling' thing, you could respond that you can't really consider or decide anything right now, but maybe with counseling, you'd be able to make decisions.

Steve you have sounded very together the last few days, don't let him mess with your head. Your reply was good.

If he persists you are under no obligation to give him any answers. You have told him that you don't know if you do want to be together again with him so you have told him that you doubt this will happen. Take as much time as you need and if he asks again tell him to respect your space. That you will have contact over your daughters etc but any relationship questions are off the agenda for a month or so.

Take that time to think about how you feel, if you feel happier without him, whether you believe it would be any different if you went back. If you have any doubt re-read your opening post and be proud of yourself that you were strong enough to leave.

When you have adjusted a little to the huge upheaval in your life then you will feel in a better place to tell him that it is definitely over should that be what you decide.

Look after yourself. x

One thing I want to say, Steve, is that you have brilliant instincts. They really are phenomenal.

Your gut instinct about the dating? Go with that. If the idea of just dating him fills you with horror, then being in a relationship simply isn't an option.

Well done you for not agreeing to talk. Well done you for asking him to email you (bet there's nothing that really needs discussing).

With regards to arranging contact, that can all be done as a separate thing. No matter what is happening contact needs to be sorted and you need to be able to communicate. If you can set up a routine all the better, then the only time you'll need to contact him is when something out of the ordinary happens. You can drop Dd off and watch her walk to the door. You don't need to see him or speak to him at all. Your only job is making her available for access.

I like the idea of asking him for a month of no contact (other than on the subject of Dd).

So far let's look at what he's done:-

He has badgered you and asked to date you.
He hasn't arranged any counselling for him
He hasn't arranged any couples counselling
He came back to the house when you were packing when you'd asked him not to
He pushes for responses and decisions before he has done anything

These are not the actions of a changed man. These are the actions of a man who wants to have you back with the minimum of effort, so that he can say, "well you came back to me when I hadn't changed, so you knew I wouldn't"

From here it looks like he's blown it already. He's already shown he won't do what you want him to (if he does it now it's because you've insisted, not because he wants to change to make you happy), he's already shown he doesn't respect your boundaries.

By not finishing things completely you gave him one last chance. He has done nothing. Are you really going to give him another? Listen to your instincts. Reread what life was like for you and for dd. You've already come so far in such a short time. You are amazing and he simply does not deserve you

Such a lovely post chris

All that Chris said. You're worth so much more. He's not listening to you.

Chris thank you so much

He cornered me again about the counselling when I picked my youngest up today after work. He hasn't arranged anything just wanted me to confirm I agreed to it (it was in my text last night!).

I don't honestly think he is going to sort this, and even if he does then its going to be about the cost, we both work FT and have relatively well paid jobs so there wont be any concession on fees. Have to spend time with him on Saturday with the ashes and the tree thing sigh

I had a further email about AA payments and the mobile phone thing which has gone out of the joint account. Ill pay the AA money in to cover that but the phone thing annoys me, transpires its £30 for the contract and £30 payment for the brand new phone that came with it. he says he has been in touch with them about it but there is nothing they can do ofc not you money grabbing arses but I do understand. I haven't responded to that yet anyway.

The thing with contact, it is not going to be easy to set something constructive and regular. I often have to work late and he finishes work early and therefore I do need him to help me out with childcare stuff from time to time. Youngest is not quite old enough to be home alone for extended periods really and she doesn't answer her bloody phone or text messages when she is so I panic oldest DD works shifts until she starts her new job which is 9-5.

I have kind of left it up to her as to when she wants to see him really. Maybe we need to have a discussion about firming something up but he can step in with after school stuff when needed. I have no idea what that will look like yet.

It's all a bit new so you are still adjusting, he is just trying to test the water so don't get yourself too worked up about it

Set your boundaries in your own head and stick with them, he will soon get the message
X

As far as counseling, I think all I'd say is a noncommittal 'That's up to you' if he asked about the hows and whens. It's also what I'd say if he expected me to pay for part of it! If he keeps on I'd just say 'Look, we've been over this, it's up to you to sort it, I don't want to hear about it again until you can say you have an appointment'.

Things are going to be off kilter for awhile with childcare and visits, especially if things have to be last minute due to working late. Could you investigate alternatives just so you have a tentative plan in case it gets to be a problem with him or he decides not to be accommodating? Is DD old enough that you can just beep the horn out front of his place and she can reliably gather her stuff and come out to the car so you won't have to deal with him for too long?

Things are too new, I think, to worry about hard and fast schedules right now for youngest DD. Try to just row with the flow for a few weeks, things may evolve on their own. IMO he'll be cooperative as long as he thinks he has a chance to get you back. Once he realizes that isn't going to happen, then you'll need schedules and rules.

How are you getting on, Steve?

Hi Steve, have you managed to avoid getting cornered again?

With contact, is it possible to have regular days when you work late? Or would it always be the case that you'd know on the day? There are always ways around everything :)

Once things have settled a bit try to work out what suits. Don't forget to make sure that you get half of the weekends etc. I see lots of people on here initially planning that dcs spend every weekend with the ex. It isn't long before they realise that they get all the midweek drudgery and none of the quality time!

Your dds both sound rather brilliant and so mature and together. They're a credit to you.

Couples counselling can be brilliant for managing a breakup, it's very much something they help with. But that still doesn't mean you have to go. It's still your choice. All of it. You have complete control here.

Do be prepared for when he realises it is over and he stops being nice. A common tactic is refusing to take dd when you need to work. I agree that you should make sure you've got alternatives just in case. Just cover your back as much as you can, hopefully you won't need any of it, but if you do, you can just calmly say, "oh we've moved on to this stage have we? No problem, I've got alternatives." With a deep sigh and shake of the head :o

have a lovely weekend. I hope the planting of the tree passes without him using it to his advantage.

Hi all

Chris I never know when I am going to be working late, it's the nature of my job sadly but on the plus side my working day is never ever boring!

Oldest DD has finally got a start date for her new job which is in two weeks time, childcare issues will then become zero, thank goodness! so we will just have to manage until then, although her work have been arseholes and given her late shifts for the entirety of her final working week.

Today however, was horrible! collected him and DD at 10 this morning and we drove up to collect her ashes, went to a garden centre and chose a beautiful rose bush for her (it is called "Eternal flame" - red roses) He had initially wanted to buy a catkins tree, but when we saw them they looked so...sad and bereft! I don't know, just not "fitting" our little angel at all. Red roses seem to be more appropriate. The flower of love, and hopefully it will bloom and grow. Wish she was here with me though

BUT his behaviour and sarcastic cutting comments today royally pissed me off in a big way. It started in the car over there, he made home made pizza with DD last night and I told him that my oldest had treated me to a chinese takeout, the comment then was "you must be loaded" then my youngest said oh and guess what, we have a PS4...WTAF! I then made a mirror comment to him about being "loaded" to which he said, I have maxed my credit card. I know this is not true as he recently got a loan to clear his credit cards. But he was pleading poverty two weeks ago, having to live off a fiver a day now we can afford to buy PS4's!!

Not a horrid comment but worth noting; He did also mention in the car that he is going to contact Relate on Monday and asked me what times would be best. Said I don't mind but would probably be better in the evening after work and when oldest is home from work for childcare. Jury's out on that one right now.

When we collected her ashes he did the same as when we were there last week, kind of a shoulder rub thing. Now I have told him this week I do not want to date, so surely this would mean that I do NOT want any physical contact with him right now. Seriously!

At the garden centre I made a comment about "being in the wrong queue"..now see, there is a mini back story to this...I ALWAYS pick the wrong bloody queue, every..single..time. Its a kind of long running joke in my family. Whatever queue I choose there will be some sort of problem, with the till roll, the scanner, the bar code, whatever, but it always happens. I am kind of resigned to it (never get behind me in a queue folks!) It was actually meant in jest but the comment from him was "what else am I going to do wrong today?" said in a definitely not joking or amusing manner.

GAAAAH!!!! at this point I was seething. We got in the car and I dropped him off home. I was determined not to help him carry all the bags of compost to the house as he had not lifted one bloody finger to help me move out but thought, no, I'm the bigger person (plus it would have taken longer) so I did help.

Once it was all dropped off I just wanted to get in my car and go home. I had hoped we could have planted her together and had some form of saying goodbye thing but he totally spoiled it all for me with the above shit.

So he has planted the rose, he has sent me pictures of it. Obviously I will see her next time I am there but I feel sad that in some way I never got to do that final thing for my baby