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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
Mylifepart2 · 24/02/2015 23:14

Joysmum No men "cant but PA men "wont" ...

PA is so much more than the imbalance of chores, not initiating or seeing chores and having differing standards of housework.
PA is a recognised personality disorder developed from experiencing a dysfunctional childhood family dynamic (eg v unequal power between M and F, problem drinker, abuse in the home etc).
The PA is v charming and engaging specifically to deflect from confrontation and conflict - they never verbalise a "No" but will stay silent/stonewall or walk out or eventually acquiesce and agree face to face but do not then action what you thought you had agreed. If they do finally do it it will be done deliberately badly as a hostile act of rebellion as they are unable to express their anger verbally.

A mad prof type / AS / or even a lazy slob can be trained (with tremendous effort by partner) with lists, rotas, micro-managing and nagging to eventually get stuff done - as it might really be an oversight, that they were pre-occupied in the moment, or even that they were just trying to get away with not doing it for a bit longer.

But this isn't happening here. He is actively, passive-aggressively, hostile - but is is wrapped up as charming 'Mr Nice Guy" and the stressed intellectual buffoon to throw you off guard by playing the hapless victim.

The OP posted because she has already done all of the exhausting lists, rotas, micro-managing and nagging until she is blue in the face with no effect.

These are the "red flags" in OPs own words from her posts:

at her "wits end"
he is infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained
it’s really wearing me down
it is eroding the love

It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.
if I don’t remind him it doesn't get done
I have tried to talk to him countless times
I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
I keep asking him but he keeps “forgetting”.
me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting
I started doing this for him
He keeps saying he will
In the past, I have tried making daily lists of jobs for him to do,

he remains insistent that it’s not a priority for him
"it's everyone else's fault, they need to chill."
he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes
but instead of saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!
halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!
he knew what I expected before he agreed to move in with me! I have told him time and time again that I don't want a puppet who just does things when I ask him to.
He says he'll make the effort, but it's been proven time and time again that those things just aren't on his radar, and so it goes on...
but he told me I was being “anal”
He thinks it’s ridiculous
Yes I read your rota suggestion. I have tried that. It prompts the "you're being anal" response

He doesnt turn off TV, make bed, change the toilet roll, removing his hair from the plughole, put his laundry away (that OP has done)
so it’s always me that keeps on top of things
me who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.
I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food
As for the garden, my lovely parents do it (he will cut the grass when they bring the lawn mower over) but they do all the planting, maintenance, etc.
I handle our joint finances simply because.....
Then on Sunday, after they leave, I will end up clearing up the mess while OH plays on the computer...

DeliciousMonster · 24/02/2015 23:22

Trainng your partner. Its the saddest thing to have to teach them that you do housework with your hands, not your vagina.

LakeAmber · 24/02/2015 23:26

But in that list I can also see a whole load of enabling the OP is doing. I'm not blaming her, I've been down that road myself to an extent, and I know how it happens. But this man knows there will be know bad consequences for him if he doesn't do stuff - he's not being exposed to the reality of what not doing it really means, because then she does it.

One option is to kick him out right now and get him to live in his own place, as I and others have suggested.

But if he's staying:

Don't do his laundry - why would you?
Don't always provide toilet paper and replace the roll - tell him to buy some and if he doesn't, it runs out (keep your own private supply)
Don't clean up after the guests. Leave it.
Don't keep shopping cooking and providing. Tell him once it's his turn to do the food shop and leave it at that. If he doesn't, meh. Go and buy yourself some chips.
Don't pick up the fag butts.

See how bad it gets. At least that will clarify things - is he actually happy to live like that, or is he leaving this stuff because he knows you will do it?

Pre-kids is the perfect time to try this.

Micromanaging and nagging isn't working and it may reinforce the idea for him that you are in charge and ultimately the buck stops with you.

Mylifepart2 · 24/02/2015 23:27

worksallhours
I can fully understand why she is questioning this ... because she feels like she is having to "fly" for the both of them at the moment in quite a lot of areas of life -- domestically, in terms of worrying about the impression he gives in his workplace, in terms of his common-sense, and also, it seems, financially. What happens when she has to fly for the both of them and fly for their children as well? Can she bear that load? Should she bear that load? What happens if the load gets heavier? If there is tragedy, sadness, or ill-health?

EXACTLY - what happens when real life happens? When the load gets heavier and you end up doing x3 of everything ie your share, their share and then the PA share (ie what they have undermined, what they have done badly you get mentally and physically exhausted, you become an angry banshee, your career suffers, you get ill, your children live in a toxic dysfunction family dynamic, you have a break-down, you get divorced as it is easier to parent x4dc alone than with the disruptive PA man child adding to your domestic and emotional burden - it fucks up the kids as PA Dad is Disney Dad - you are bad cop they are always good cop -- an impossible situation. Have a rummage thru my many posts and links on this thread and on others if you want to see a version the OPs future .....

Fedupwithmess · 24/02/2015 23:32

Good evening everyone, glad I’ve finally got time to update.

We spoke again at even longer length about the division of household chores last night. I told him how much delegating household tasks was mentally grinding me down and that he needed to be fully aware of exactly what I did so that he was appreciative of the effort I made and mindful to take on his share of tasks. I made a list of everything I did broken down by room and the frequency with which I did it. Even though I’d just rattled it off the top of my head he couldn’t believe how comprehensive it was and there wasn’t a single thing on there which he judged as unnecessary. He was very receptive to everything I had to say and didn’t get defensive or dismissive, even when I mentioned passive aggressive behaviour. I asked him why he couldn’t have been like when he’d previously broached the subject, to which he responded that I should judge him on how he was from now on. I said to him that I wasn’t prepared to enter into a marriage if we weren’t working together as a team. He took the list, identified jobs that he would take responsibility for and then we printed to off and stuck it on the fridge. He’s also agreed to weekly phone alarms to remind him of stuff like bins and he promised that he would start making more of an effort. Today when I got home from work, he had already done 5 of the daily jobs.

“I made a break-through … I sat him down and said that washing clothes, cleaning toilets, keeping floors clean, replacing bulbs in light fittings ... these things were the basic fundamentals of ordinary adult life -- they were like cleaning your teeth or washing your face. They weren't optional.Housework was not an aesthetic matter: it was a matter of health and safety. Doing laundry meant we didn't get infections or nasty boils. Clean floors meant we didn't accidentally consume toxins from outside. Cleaning the shower meant that soap build up didn't cause someone to slip. These tasks didn't go away if you ignored them, it just meant someone else had to sort it.”
I can completely relate to this post and I’m hoping that I have made a breakthrough too. It remains to be seen whether I have got through to OH in a way that will bring about permanent change…

Re. my naivety that he will give up smoking before the wedding.
Lakeamber I too know of “life-long” smokers who have given up successfully – sometimes the trigger was a relative dying of cancer, in other instances getting married or their partner having their baby. OH really does want to give up smoking for the sake of his health and our future, he’s not just saying it to give lip service. He knows I get anxious with thoughts of him getting ill and he keeps himself physically fit through regular running and doesn’t drink to excess. I’m sympathetic enough about addiction to know that it doesn’t always happen overnight. I too have bad habits and just because I haven’t managed to kick them yet, it doesn’t mean I don’t love or respect OH.

"I'm also curious, you say he displays a lot of respect for you in other ways in your relationship. What would an example of that be?"
Showing an interest in my work and hobbies.
Respecting my privacy & my time needed to see my friends, exclusive of him.
Taking time to get to know my loved ones.
Making me feel loved and cared for when I’ve had a bad day or I’m feeling ill.
Not making decisions that would affect me – ie; major financial purchases, trips away with friends, without running them by me first.
Treating me like a cherished partner in the bedroom, not a sex object.

Re. him going for coffee instead of doing the shopping – I do honestly think this was his absent mindedness rather than passive aggressive belligerent behaviour. He set off to go to the shops (albeit a bit flappy, because he was usually used to me specifically telling him what to buy), bumped into his mate on the way, went for coffee and yacked for so long he didn’t have time to get the food, then decided it would be fine just to go to the supermarket in the morning. In reality it made the morning extremely rushed, because his judgment borne through absentmindedness was unrealistic and that’s what annoyed me. I know his version of event is true because his friend is my friend too.

“Actually I really feel for OP, damn near 500 posts basically calling her DH to be, a bit of a twat.”
Thank you YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually. Fortunately I’m not easily offended. I have read and considered every single post on this thread and I am grateful of every grain of life experience offered – I’m sure every post was made in good faith to help me avoid mistakes that others have made and come to regret. I’m not ignoring a single one of them, regardless of how harsh they are. Much of the wisdom shared has been enormously helpful in enabling me to identify the gravity of the problem and tackle it head on with OH, rather than letting my feelings stew to the point where I implode. In fact, friends who know nothing about the issues I’ve posted about on here have remarked today how chilled out I’ve appeared compared to how I’ve been lately.

It’s been difficult to know how to respond to the “LTB” posts – I haven’t wanted to counter them and be perceived as defensive or in denial, but I have enough experience of relationships to be completely sure that mine has nowhere near deteriorated to the extent that walking away would be the best option (that's not to say that red flags aren't there which highlight things that need to be tackled before it escalates to that stage). As much as I have tried to give as full and clear a take on this current dilemma as possible, without drip feeding, when I read back what I’ve written, it does often tend to gloss over OH’s good points or indeed my bad points (which were not the focus of the post, of course). It captured how I felt when our relationship was at its worst.

Worksallhours The analogy you made about the caterpillar / butterfly is most intriguing to me, as I identify much of my OH in your DH’s behaviour.
It was this line in the op's fp that made me think about this: "he just wants to be his own person". This really struck me as a statement of a very singular identity and a commitment to one set of behaviours pertaining to that identity and that identity alone.
At the danger of completely outing myself here, OH is an identical twin. They were dressed in matching clothes and shared a bunk bed until they were in their late teens. All of his life, OH fought to be his “own person” and to forge his own identity. His twin is the most clean-cut, super sensible / tidy / routine loving person you could ever meet. It’s never even crossed my mind before that his polar opposite identity could be a direct response to this?

OP posts:
CharityD · 24/02/2015 23:38

He also hoovered, put his clothes away and did the washing up, without specifically being asked.

This sounds more like what one might say about a child, to me. Sad
Anyway OP, once again, I think you deserve so much better, but, as I did earlier, I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.

AWholeLottaNosy · 24/02/2015 23:40

Bloody hell, the fact he's an identical twin says a LOT!

However I've come on here to talk about his smoking. I'm a smoker myself and it's an incredibly hard habit to break. I'd really encourage you to suggest to him he tries vaping. There's lots of very good e cigarettes now you can get that will give you the hit of nicotine without the smoke, tar, smell, fag buts eyc. Many many people have given up the fags but still vape. It's probably about 5% as harmful as normal fags are. Check out the vaping threads on here if you or he wants more info. It could be a good compromise.

LakeAmber · 24/02/2015 23:42

Welcome back fedup, that sounds great and let's hope it is a breakthrough. Some of us have seen that happen so don't be disheartened by people saying he can't change. You don't know that yet!

Huge respect to you also for the way you've handled all these replies so calmly.

FirstOfficerDouglasRichardson · 24/02/2015 23:45

That's massive progress op! :)

AWholeLottaNosy · 24/02/2015 23:49

One more thing re his identity. I am the youngest of 3 daughters, both super responsible high achieving and very tidy. I was always compared to them as a child and I felt the only way I could be myself was by not being like them. So, I've been the exact opposite, non conformist, free thinking, rebel etc. it really felt like it was the only way I could exist as a real person ( as opposed to a non person). So I can totally relate to where your partner is coming from. However... As a strategy for living as an adult, it's not very helpful, as I know to my cost. It's like you're fighting with ghosts that still have a hold over you but to confirm feels like an existential death. I've still not overcome it as it's so ingrained, it's not conscious or malicious, it felt like a survival strategy at the time but even though it's outlived it's usefulness it's very hard to change. Just wrote this to maybe give some insight into your partner's character and struggle.

HelenaDove · 24/02/2015 23:53

Ive not posted that link to be facetious btw My H has COPD and an old schoolfriends mum died from it two weeks ago.

AWholeLottaNosy · 24/02/2015 23:57

Meant conform not confirm.

AWholeLottaNosy · 25/02/2015 00:00

Helena, I don't want to get into a debate about e cigs here but 200,00 people in the UK alone have given up smoking through vaping and most medical evidence suggests it's much less harmful than smoking cigarettes

HelenaDove · 25/02/2015 00:03

200,000? Blimey.

worksallhours · 25/02/2015 00:57

Fedup ... I too hope you have made a breakthrough here.

I think, with my DH, making him understand that there were very real health and safety consequences to not doing domestic work helped him to grasp just how important it really was.

I suspect, looking back, that my DH had come to think of housework as belonging to the same sphere of female behaviours as, say, putting scatter cushions on a bed that women did it because they want things to look nice, because they wanted things to be "pretty". And that men were the opposite of this. Men didn't care about mess because they were men and being a man was all about things that were dirty like fixing cars and plumbing, slaughtering animals, and fighting in trenches.

Saying to him "look, we wipe out the fridge when some meat juice has spilled on a shelf because if we don't, we could get food poisoning" turned housework from an aesthetic matter into an issue of protection. Saying "if we don't clean out the bath, someone could slip on the grime and break a bone" turned the job into a task to ensure safety because if we didn't do it, someone could get very hurt and that would be our fault.

And, yes, I admit ... I played on DH's values of masculinity, that a man is a protector of his spouse and dependents. He comes from a more traditional culture, and understood housework once I put it in that context. He saw a man as someone who protects his wife and children from things that will hurt them. I just pointed out that those things could be wild animals, they could be marauding armies, but they could also be dog dirt residues on a hallway floor -- and out of all of the above, it was the dog dirt residue that was most likely to occur, considering we were living in a semi in Northern England and the next door neighbour had a labradoodle. Grin

To be honest, I understood why he approached the subject with his former perspective because when I, myself, started to break down the reasons why I actually did some chores, it often took me a moment to trace back to the original reason for a task. It wasn't immediately obvious and I had absorbed the information so long ago that I had forgotten it.

I realised the extent to which I had been educated (indoctrinated) from infancy to see the home in a certain way. When I broke it down, I realised I had been taught that providing a clean home was an expression of love, and the reasoning for that was because it was about providing an environment that supported health, safety and protection for my loved ones. When my DH didn't do chores or ignored them or left them, I interpreted that, without realising it, as a sign that he didn't care about me or our family.

But the thing was ... my DH had never learnt those things because he was socialised as a boy within a very traditional family structure. He couldn't see the domestic work that needed doing because he had never been taught to see it. He didn't make the connection between care and cleanliness because no-one had ever introduced him to that way of seeing.

This sounds like I am making excuses, and, to some extent, I possibly am. But so much of this conditioning runs so deep that, often, we don't even know how indoctrinated we actually are -- and it is worth getting all this out in the open before you make any further decisions.

And, you know, there is another argument to say .. well, why did all this figuring out work fall to you, Works? Why did you have to become your DH's psychologist? Why didn't your DH embark on this excavation of his behaviour himself? It was obviously a problem, why didn't he put the thought into what was going wrong and why?

And those people would have a very valid point.

wotoodoo · 25/02/2015 02:41

Op you have let him get away with mindnumbingly selfish behaviour that has caused more work for you for years. To take one example: the very first cig butt in the garden would have got my dh upset if I had done that and vice versa (we don't smoke and with dc that is a very expensive and selfish vice to have) so all I can say is you have enabled him to be like he is. It's something I would have had ZERO tolerance for. Likewise all the other selfish and thoughtless behaviour.

I cannot imagine a happy relationship ever coming out of what you've had to put up with, but then I have been happily married for nearly 20 years with a dh who is thoughtful and kind inside and outside the home.

It's a bit late demanding change now!

Any chance you could marry the twin instead? Sounds far more compatible for you Grin

Jackieharris · 25/02/2015 08:39

He does sound like a 12yo boy!

You mentioned that you were home a lot recently- from his pov did he see you as a housewife during this time since you weren't out of the house like him all day? Not that that justifies his behaviours but it could be an indicator of how he'd be during maternity leave.

Have you spoken about how you will split childcare and domestic work after having DCs? Will he expect you to do everything? Will he get up with a crying baby during the night when he's got work the next day? Imo you need to plan for these eventualities now.

Also looking at your list of how he makes you feel respected. It makes me think you've had bad relationships in the past and have low expectations of a DPs behaviour. What you listed should be a given. It doesn't make him something special.

Tbh it doesn't sound like he's mature enough for marriage and DCs yet. He needs to live alone for at least a year first. It sounds like he's always had others to pick up his slack and has the lifestyle of a student rather than a mature adult.

I got my DP to read 'wifework' before he moved in with me. Maybe get him to read it so he can understand your side from a neutral pov.

If he has issues over individual identity has he ever considered seeing a therapist? If he's still living out his childhood issues he isn't ready to move onto having his own family.

Suzannewithaplan · 25/02/2015 08:51

Worksallhours, I find your last post to be full of interesting and very salient points.
?
I agree this whole thing has much to do with masculinity, we are conditioned at a very deep level to identify with culturally constructed gender roles (along with a whole host of other constructs)

And yet I still feel it comes down to the fundamental (and therefore unquestioned) sense or belief that women are inferior, secondary to men?.
That's why he doesn't want to take on any role which is seen as feminine, because it demeans him.
If after some cultural shift domestic work came to be seen as a masculine preserve I don't think the underlying problem would be solved.
It would become a higher status activity and women would be ?relegated to whatever activities were currently given lower status.
?

bringmejoy2015 · 25/02/2015 09:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mylifepart2 · 25/02/2015 09:10

and there wasn’t a single thing on there which he judged as unnecessary. He was very receptive to everything I had to say and didn’t get defensive or dismissive, even when I mentioned passive aggressive behaviour.

Yep classic PA behaviour.

The "sorrys", "the yes I will do that", "yes you are so right" blah blah blah.....because they cant verbalise "No"....... then a period of compliance until they think you are not looking then back to doing exactly what they like - along with the small covert hostile acts of rebellion aimed to you - which they lie about, distort and minimise when called on it....all sugar coated in sweet, charming, Mr Nice Guy behaviour - smoke and mirrors to deflect and distract you from his misdemeanors.

You are still in denial and enabling him (now changed your stance on the shopping incident, listing out the jobs etc) as you cant cope with the possibility that your Prince Charming is belligerent and hostile (in a covert PA way) as it will shatter you dreams of the big expensive wedding with the patter of tiny feet on the horizon.

But his boss has him sussed.

His house mates had him sussed.

I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

Show this thread to your Mum and Dad.

Both of you should read this book by American Psychiatrist Scott Wetzler - tis the bible on PA.

www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Personality-Aggression/dp/0671870742

You should also consider if you have co-dependancy tendencies which attract EA/walking wounded types as this sustains and enables their issues.

"The passive aggressive man sabotages his marriage but it takes that one special woman to enable him to do so. That woman who, in dealing with her own issues is attracted to the walking wounded. That woman who goes above and beyond when it comes to making a relationship work."

The woman who marries the passive aggressive man spends a lot of time hoping for more than her husband is willing to give her. She wants closeness, cooperation, love and attention. She wants actions and behaviors from him that show her he loves her.

divorcesupport.about.com/od/isdivorcethesolution/a/passiveaggressivehusband.htm
coda.org/index.cfm/meeting-documents/patterns-and-characteristics-2011/

Suzannewithaplan · 25/02/2015 09:12

?
That's why men want to keep women out of the golf club / the construction site etc, because our presence has a negative influence on the status of whatever thing it is that men what to keep to themselves. ?

Lancelottie · 25/02/2015 09:21

If after some cultural shift domestic work came to be seen as a masculine preserve I don't think the underlying problem would be solved.
It would become a higher status activity

Our next-door neighbour is ex-army (or possibly navy? Not sure) and he sees all housework as an essential military operation to be achieved for the correct functioning of the platoon household. Any man who doesn't manage to clean, iron and put away is a Despicable Little Excuse of a Boy.

I think I need to send my boys round there to be barked at.

Mylifepart2 · 25/02/2015 09:41

GallicIsCharlies post yesterday @ 15.03 is spot on:

"Conscious or unconscious? Both. The drive's unconscious, but demands instant satisfaction by conscious means. I don't empathise specifically with avoiding the food shopping quite that dramatically, but do have extensive experience of avoiding things in similarly bizarre fashion.

There's a good chance, Fed, it can't be fixed with a good will and sensible planning. The "sobbing child within" is not amenable to solutions that entail grown-up behaviour. Neither can s/he be adequately comforted by adult partners in the present day, sad as this is. It remains for you & DP to discover how this plays out in your futures - I'm still in favour of going for children without marriage, and preferably in separate homes - but please don't kid yourself that the shopping/coffee/forgetting incident was anything other than the messed up expression of a deep psychological injury. It's far too peculiar to be absent-mindedness or even a joke."

They are so afraid/distraught by the prospect of conflict that they will do anything in the moment to survive - they really believe unconsciously in their gut that they are under threat - Fight or Flight -- they never fight so it is flight = physically walking away, or emotionally closing down etc. But when they are called on the behaviour time and time again they still refuse/disengage - and this is obviously a belligerent conscious selfish act.

Suzannewithaplan · 25/02/2015 09:56

?Mylife, the PA behavior often feels to me like a refusal to be 'real' with another person, refusal to engage as an equal.
Instead they are always humouring you, a smirk lurks behind all facial expressions ?

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