At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

[Fedupwithmess]

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

The OP could cancel the wedding (without cancelling the relationship) and tell him why she is doing it.

He then either shapes up or doesn't.

And if he that isn't enough to change him - give up.

lotsofcheese I've been married fir 15 years. In those years, DH has changed his behaviour and attitude.
I have changed my behaviour too.
None of it happened within the first few years of marriage.
But all thenthibfscwexhsvd changed could have been listed as 'impossible to live with' and 'will never change'
But we did.
I stopped being 'argumentative' and 'shouting' (in DH eyes. No kne has ever thought I'm that bad but DH has a very low tolerance).
DH transformed himself from a 1950s man to one who does. Most of the hw and childrearing during the week.
So why is it impossible to think that the op's DP can change too?

We'll have to agree to disagree SoRude - of course there are anecdotal instances of men being tidier than women, of SAHDs doing a great job, etc, but statistically women are overwhelmingly doing more than their fair share around the house. And, a man who refuses to see what needs doing and pull his weight pre-DC is unlikely to change much when DC arrive.

You (one) can hope all they want, but look at the responses to this thread, and real life. So many women are frustrated by how much more than their fair share they have to do on a day-in-day-out basis.

Same thing,Undecided - no-one's saying its 'impossible', just very, very unlikely that the OP's fiancé is going to change. It's more likely that things will get worse.

This is her life, though. She is free to ignore all the stories and shared experiences on this thread, and to go ahead and marry him, and hope for the best. And good luck to her. :)

But that's like saying there are instances of women being pilots, but you're much more likely to find a man in the cockpit. Of course that's true, right now, but it's true for historical reasons and the patriarchal relationship that both sexes have gone along with to a greater or lesser degree for generations. It doesn't mean that we can't do something about it by changing expectations (that men will do their share), what we as women decide we will demand (equality) and by enacting that in our daily lives (by refusing to accept the burden of clearing up after men who don't shape up). Just because men generally don't step up as much as women do, or haven't so far, doesn't mean we have to say "well that's just what men are like". That's bollocks as we can see from most men's ability to do their jobs to the required standard.

OP if you really want to go ahead and marry him then I think you have to start out with the assumption that this is the way it is and this is the way it will continue to be.

If you feel like you can still live with that prospect then get married.

If the idea of things staying the same long term fills you with a sense of dread then don't get married.

You should not go into this marriage if you feel its success is conditional on things improving.

They might improve, but you can't bank on it.

I agree with previous posters - have the baby with him. But don't marry unless there are major changes here. You can have your lovely home and he can have a little flat and visit. But he behaves with respect when he's in your house. He's not treating you with respect now so I honestly don't think he would change though.

If you marry - a few years down the line you will end up so resentful and with divorce on the horizon - plus the prospect of selling your house or remortgaging to pay him to leave.

and by enacting that in our daily lives (by refusing to accept the burden of clearing up after men who don't shape up)

Lake I agree with what you say, ie that we should refuse to accept the burden of men who dont pull their weight.
But once hitched to that particular wagon it's the devils own job to refuse to accept the burden as it piles up in the physical space around you.
There is a domestic state-mate which puts an enormous amount of strain on the tidier partner.

I'm not sure how the burden is best avoided, perhaps if women in ever greater numbers refuse to enter into domestic partnerships with men, realising that to do so is likely to trap them into servitude

Sorry but why are you asking yourself all of these questions? If you even feel like you need to ask them, find an alternative route. Please don't feel obliged to join the masses who 'put up' with so much in their lives in the name of 'love'. You'll just find yourself in a spiral of trying to justify his behaviour for evermore, and it won't ever improve. What makes you think marriage will do that? If he takes the piss now, it will only increase, just read other posts post marriage. We can't 'save' these idiots by continuing to condone their frigging ridiculous behaviour. Live for yourself

I have been pondering over this thread since I posted and wanted to just throw something out there, which may or may not be completely barmy.

I found with my DH that, at heart, a lot of the issues I faced with him in our early marriage were actually symptoms of a far larger issue ... and that was that he didn't realise that new life stages required an evolution of his own sense of identity, or an adoption of new identity to go along with the ones he already had that he needed to go through a process of metamorphosis and would need to go through more metamorphoses with new life stages and that those new identities would require different, new and unfamiliar types of behaviours.

Take the typical caterpillar/chrysalis/butterfly process -- at each stage, the insect has to change and mature. But more importantly, you can't be a butterfly and still behave like a caterpillar. If you are a butterfly, you gotta fly. You can't just be crawling around on leaves all the time.

My DH didn't realise this. He had become a butterfly, chosen to become a butterfly, wanted to become a butterfly, but was still trying to crawl around on leaves -- and he couldn't figure out why it didn't work, his balance was all wrong, and he kept falling off twigs. After all, crawling around on leaves was what he had done all his life and it had worked before ... but that was because he was a damn caterpillar then. He had a lot more legs. He didn't have wings. He didn't need to fly in order for his life to work.

It was this line in the op's fp that made me think about this: "he just wants to be his own person". This really struck me as a statement of a very singular identity and a commitment to one set of behaviours pertaining to that identity and that identity alone. It seemed to be a statement of commitment to caterpillar-ness.

But the thing is, as you journey through the life cycle as a human being, you have to become more than "just your own person", more than just a singular identity, more than just one set of behaviours. You become "your own person" + you as a spouse + you as a mother or father + you as a middle-aged adult + you as an elder -- you grow, you mutate, you change to become greater, more than the sum of your parts. You grow to contain multitudes of every identity you have ever been and are.

And you cannot behave the way you did before; you have to have lots of different behaviours to fit each of your identities. You have to change. Otherwise, your behaviour does not match your circumstances and life begins to jar ... and I think the OP is sensing this jarring and it is making her question embarking upon yet another new life stage, that of parenthood, with her fiance.

I can fully understand why she is questioning this ... because she feels like she is having to "fly" for the both of them at the moment in quite a lot of areas of life -- domestically, in terms of worrying about the impression he gives in his workplace, in terms of his common-sense, and also, it seems, financially. What happens when she has to fly for the both of them and fly for their children as well? Can she bear that load? Should she bear that load? What happens if the load gets heavier? If there is tragedy, sadness, or ill-health?

I think males probably need more help to understand this process of metamorphosis more than females. After all, women are forced, quite directly, to accept changes in identity because they have such a physical effect upon us: we start to menstruate, we gestate, we birth, we lactate, we wean. Men do not experience such extreme physical change: their mutation from caterpillar to chrysalis to butterfly needs to take place almost entirely in the mind.

And some of them never manage it. That, at heart, is what the man-child is: the forever caterpillar that doesn't comprehend that he needs to do more than just crawl on leaves.

This is an incredible thread, the way it's taken off, so many women can relate to the OP's situation and are wanting to give her a warning with their wisdom and hindsight. It's obviously a really common problem and the OP is at the beginning of it all, loving her partner but hating his behaviour. I really hope for her sake he can change but if he doesn't, there is disaster ahead...

LakeAmber - nowhere am I suggesting she should accept the status quo! [Shock] I'm not sure how you've extrapolated that.

She would be far better to get out now, pre-marriage and pre-DC, or at the very least warn him that she is absolutely no longer willing to tolerate it.

It's certainly not her job to try to improve him, either, and to try to turn him into a decent, tidy, helpful man.

The OP has choices here.

Love it worksallhours! I do see what you're saying and I think those physical changes play a part. But also extremely important is socialisation and women being brought up to feel that they have to carry the can. That's passed on down the generations as children of both sexes see a mother dredging away and picking up slack all day and a man pleasing himself. That's something we can change. My relationship isn't perfect as I've said but one of the things I'm very happy about is that thanks to me insisting on equality in household tasks and dp stepping up to do his share, our DS and DD get a daily view of a man and a woman both toiling and moiling over the dishes, the laundry, the mucky floor, the car tax renewal what have you. That sinks in deep and so does the alternative - seeing the woman doi it all, even when she also works outside the home.

And yes I think women can and should raise this issue with men as the op is doing, before committing to them, and make agreeing to a relationship/cohabiting/marriage dependent on it. We should remember that we offer stuff men want - sex, love, companionship, the opportunity to be a parent - just as they offer us that (if we are straight). We can reserve the right to only accept the responsible adults among them or those who are prepared to become that way - to fly like the butterfly they are - and stop excusing them by suggesting they're not up to it.

Great analogy, allhours!

And totally agree, nosy.

Bah drudging not dredging!

No, it's not a woman's responsibility to change a man, she may opt to just say no. But my point is that men like this can step up and change or at least some can - mine has and others described on this thread have - if we make clear that's what we expect. After all thats just asking for simple basic equality in the domestic sphere, not unlike equal pay in the workplace - its perfectly reasonable.

great post worksallhours

Also I think people don't realise how much of a marriage depends on both parties making a similar commitment to making similar sets of changes in the same direction at the same time. To being similarly committed to the family project (whether that's children or just a couple). I think a lot can be tolerated if both parties are equally committed to the fact that evolution will happen and to trying to manage that successfully.

This man does sound a bit like he's stuck in a mode. I really want to be my own person too - but frankly I haven't got time for that as a full time endeavour as I'm too busy having a career and parenting two children on my own and staying alive. Turns out I'm being my own person while doing all the other things I have to do. It's just that the person I'm being doesn't have a major issue with taking out the bins when the bin men are coming - that person just gets on with that task so that the rest of my life, which is quite enjoyable and full, can proceed as normal.

I agree he's stuck on the "being my own man" thing and I think it may be a short hop from "being my own man" to "being a man on my own".

I absolutely agree, Lake - it's threads like this that really make me appreciate my DH. He is not perfect, and even though I work, I do still do the lion's share of the daily household tasks - but - he does so much around the house (a lot of it as my insistence in the early days), and absolutely pulls his weight to minimise the creating of housework, as well as actually doing the work.

BTW I think the evolution applies to women too. I simply don't understand how the DP can not hoover properly in corners. What does that even mean? Is there a special way to do that and if there is, why haven't I been told? Evolving together over time might mean letting go of an opinion about how other people hoover.

I love the caterpillar-chrysalis-butterfly analogy worksallhours

Brilliant!

?
Problem is Lake, many chaps start out on best behavior, until children come along, he then sits back because she has no leverage and he can get away with it.

She can make it clear that she expects equality until she's blue in the face, he'll just stonewall / fob her off with bullshit, and continue doing his own sweet thing :(?

Well yes Suzanne in the worst cases. My very lazy dp though really changed when I made him aware of how much I did - he chose not to think about it and so thought the little he did was enough. Many men are not ill-intentioned but have not been brought up to understand what running a house and family involves.

Those worst cases should get their asses divorced whereupon they will find they have to run their own home and generally do a lot more childcare too.

I think the pp who said women should not enter into domestic arrangements with men to avoid becoming a drudge has a point. That would take a big shift obviously but it's a model to consider.

Yes, you do have to have a decent chap in the first place.

It comes back to the same old point - if the OP is this unhappy now, it doesn't look good.

It usually takes the arrival of DC for cracks to appear. But here we had an instance of, not just cracks, but crevices already in existence before DC have even arrived.

It makes me chuckle how many don't see why they should engage with a bloke to get them to pull their own weight. There's plenty of us who have recognised we have good men and know there's a big different between cant and won't. As with anything 'can't' it takes a while to see thing differently and get to the can stage. I'm glad I saw this and my mum saw this in my dad. We never regretted taking the time to train our partners to meet our expectations.

I would hope we're the last generations to need to do this and that we are good parents who raise our kids to respect equal rights and responsibilities.

I like how of late on this thread, they have become "chaps" :o That makes them sound so jolly and unproblematic!

Great posts worksallhours.

Another way to see it is that a woman is not responsible for training up a man to do his share – she may choose to do that and IMO if his parents have failed to do that, it has to start somewhere and that woman would also be doing herself and her DC a massive favour by doing so. But it's not her responsibility to.

What is a woman's responsibility though, IMO from a feminist perspective – is NOT to do more than 50% herself, to bustle around taking over and picking up the slack and spouting Boots-advert-style nonsense about "oh poor men are hopeless at these things, he can't be expected to do a food shop, he has man flu so I'm doing it all even though I also have flu" etc etc etc. You get a lot of this even on MN and so I'd estimate an even greater incidence of it in RL. If you do all the housework and wifework and your lazy man doesn't even know how much you do because you don't even inform him, then you're contributing to the inequality surely.

Either tell him and train him if necessary, or reject him on that basis. Don't do it all and then complain. At the very least, don't do anything for him if he doesn't do anything for you.

I accept having children can put women at a disadvantage but at that point the man should be told he does his share or ships out. In most cases where the man does nothing in the shared home, separating will mean less work for the woman and the man having the DC for part of the week, giving her a break and him a wake-up call. I've seen that happen plenty of times.