At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

[Fedupwithmess]

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

But you could go for a coffee first because you hate the idea of the shopping, then enjoy noodling about on your phone/talking to friends for too long, because you don't actually give a shit about the shopping, and then conveniently not have enough time left, and not really care, because to you, the shopping is not important and you are being too self-centred to really understand that it's important to your fiancee. Net result – PA behaviour borne out of avoidance behaviour.

My DP, who is similar to this, when he lived alone would forget to go shopping and would happily just have weetabix for tea. He really did not care and I really had to spell it out to him that it mattered to me to have a supply of food in etc. And from one POV, you could argue that as he genuinely didn't care, I was being controlling by insisting he contribute to making things how I wanted them. In truth, I think you both have to compromise and that's what we have done, but it can be useful not to come at it from a starting point that he's on a deliberate campaign. (It's possible that he is, but not necessary to result in this behaviour.)

He won't change just because you move into a different house. Tidy people who care about their surroundings will be tidy wherever they live.

I lived in a mouldy caravan that wasn't mine for over a year and still kept it at the same level as any other place I lived (ie reasonable - I'm not a neat freak but neither am I a slob).

He will. Not. Change.

I don't think he's strategically laying the groundwork.

I just think that a person who doesn't have any respect you will treat you worse the harder they believe it is for you to leave.

Can I offer a small bit of insight on the conscious/unconscious thing? I've done some very exasperating (to others) and quite peculiar things due to performance anxiety. I'd love to tell you complete details, as they make funny stories - the humour's at my expense! - but will have to be vague as they involve other people. One time, I was organising a large & important social event with a friend. We'd both pulled off a phenomenal amount of coups and sheer hard work; now all that was left was to dress the venue and ourselves. My nerves short-circuited. I turned my phone off, went to a beauty place and had 2 hours of soothing treatments. Then sauntered into the venue to greet an exploding friend with "Sorry, I just couldn't face it."

I made my own wedding dress, and was still finishing it in the hotel room where I was 'relaxing' with my attendants an hour before kick-off. They were not relaxed. There's loads more ... I'm currently facing the fact that I've got to do some basic housework as the place whiffs of stale clothes and I can't get to the kitchen taps for dirty crocks

There are reasons behind all this: some are genuine excuses; some are unhealed psychological fuck-ups. I know about the latter now, having done a huge amount of therapy, but knowing doesn't always fix it. I wouldn't let people down so badly these days ... but, to this end, I undertake far fewer commitments.

Conscious or unconscious? Both. The drive's unconscious, but demands instant satisfaction by conscious means. I don't empathise specifically with avoiding the food shopping quite that dramatically, but do have extensive experience of avoiding things in similarly bizarre fashion.

There's a good chance, Fed, it can't be fixed with a good will and sensible planning. The "sobbing child within" is not amenable to solutions that entail grown-up behaviour. Neither can s/he be adequately comforted by adult partners in the present day, sad as this is. It remains for you & DP to discover how this plays out in your futures - I'm still in favour of going for children without marriage, and preferably in separate homes - but please don't kid yourself that the shopping/coffee/forgetting incident was anything other than the messed up expression of a deep psychological injury. It's far too peculiar to be absent-mindedness or even a joke.

He will. Not. Change

You're very sure of yourself nearasdammit. Do you know him?

There's obviously a case for and against whether he can change. I reckon the OP is best placed to decide that for herself

It's like he's pathologically setting himself up to fail.

Gallic's post is very insightful.

I don't know him, no.

But if he cared about the OP he'd have changed by now.
It certainly sounds as if she's made it clear enough how she feels. Why is moving into a different house going to make any difference? If he was going to take her feelings into account he'd already have changed.

One point OP - you said that him giving up smoking was a thing you would insist on, before the wedding.

He won't.

You've already said you would not throw away a shed-load of money - and the wedding is not for months. Will you get to 3 days/hours before the wedding and say 'well you haven't stopped, I'm calling it all off? ' ???

No, I didn't think so. Your lines-in-the-sand mean nothing, and he knows it. He will waft your objections away with a wave of his hand.....

A 15 year old may not think through or care about the consequences for his parent; he may feel peeved to be asked to go to the supermarket. But an intelligent adult who goes for a coffee because they don't like shopping, knows perfectly well what they're doing. It's not a question of how important it is to the fiancée - he know he has friends coming to dinner and if he doesn't buy the food there won't be any.

It's one thing to get waylaid and come home late, but it's another to come home with fuck all.

I find Garlic's post interesting, but I can't buy the application of performance anxiety to food shopping. Or flicking fag butts. Or putting dirty brushes away in a drawer. It's more likely that he can't be arsed...

My DP was another who would never give up smoking. Once a smoker, always a smoker, blah, blah. He didn't believe I could give up smoking either. I did. When I got pregnant, I made it damn clear smoking was outdoors only (for both him and any smoking guests) and that was non-negotiable/total dealbreaker. Also as he was a light smoker - eventually just 1 or 2 a day - I settled for that compromise.

Guess what - he has been a non-smoker for years now. Of course he could give up. He refused to give up because he's the type to dig his heels in and doesn't like the idea of change and doesn't want to be told what to do. Bloody annoying, but not, as it turned out, insurmountable. What I've learned is that if you both give and take and arrive at a compromise, the pressure is off. That frees up the "controlling" or standards-driven one (for want of a better word - me in this case) to focus on other things and it frees up the stubborn one/demand-avoider to stop running and see that they can take responsibility for themselves when the person playing a "parent" role gets off their back.

But, he knew if he didn't stick to the compromise we agreed on, he'd be out because he knew I meant it. He has to know your lines in the sand, wherever you draw them, are solid.

But if he cared about the OP he'd have changed by now.
It certainly sounds as if she's made it clear enough how she feels

Well the thing is, up till now the OP has compensated for his shortcomings.

The key thing I found is to set out clear responsibilities and to allow consequences if those responsibilities aren't met.

That's not been happening.

I do agree with you that moving to another house won't make any difference. It's all about attitude but they both need to change their attitudes, not just him.

If he continues to smoke the changes of COPD are high, thats going to really limit quality of life for him and who ever ends up as his caretaker, really I'd be very reluctant to partner up with someone who didnt take care of their long term health

OP, I had this problem with my fiance and I married him.

In the first six years of our marriage, it developed into a really serious faultline (think: San Andreas with the power to topple San Francisco). I basically never stopped working from morning 'til night -- I did a full time job, and then came home to start my domestic "job".

I felt like I was a single mother with an oblivious teenage son who generated volumes of housework because that is one of the problem with this set-up: they don't just not do housework, they also don't behave in a way that minimises housework and often will do things that create an excessive amount of housework above and beyond normal levels.

For example: your fiancee throwing fag butts into the garden when there is an ashtray there. Not doing the housework in that scenario would be using the ashtray and not emptying it. What your fiancee is doing is one step beyond that. He's generating work that shouldn't exist ... ie. the job of picking fag butts off the lawn.

Now tell me one person you know that has that chore written down into a rota. Exactly.

It is a similar thing with your sweater. His actions weren't just about not hanging it up to dry properly, his actions meant you then had probably had to rewash the sweater (extra task one) and, as it was misshapen, probably might need to buy a new one (extra task two). This is basically creating extra work for you.

I would blow every Saturday morning because I would wake up and the to-do list would start downloading in my head. We would row about it and it was making our lives miserable. He just couldn't understand the problem, and I couldn't understand why he couldn't understand.

Eventually, and quite by chance, I made a break-through. I can't remember my exact words, but I sat him down and said that washing clothes, cleaning toilets, keeping floors clean, replacing bulbs in light fittings ... these things were the basic fundamentals of ordinary adult life -- they were like cleaning your teeth or washing your face. They weren't optional.

Housework was not an aesthetic matter: it was a matter of health and safety. Doing laundry meant we didn't get infections or nasty boils. Clean floors meant we didn't accidentally consume toxins from outside. Cleaning the shower meant that soap build up didn't cause someone to slip. These tasks didn't go away if you ignored them, it just meant someone else had to sort it.

I told him that by refusing to engage with these tasks, he was fundamentally refusing to be an adult -- and passing his adult responsibilities onto me. I was "washing his face" as well as washing my own. Somehow, he got it when I said that.

The thing is, I now know what happens to the single men that "never get it". One of them I know is now in his late 40s and lives alone in a flat that resembles a squat -- the place smells and he looks a state. He talks about finding a partner, and I know it will never happen because he wouldn't date the kind of person who would put up with the way he lives.

Behaviour that is quirky and rebellious when you are 22 just appears strange and odd when you are 47. Your fiance has to evolve into his adult self.

Actually I really feel for OP, damn near 500 posts basically calling her DH to be, a bit of a twat.

I don't think any of us are 100% perfect or have 100% perfect relationships, so whilst I agree OP is very very sensible to address issues before marriage! this man is probably not the devil incarnate.

He may be lazy and a bit selfish but I was like this when I married DH. I only really stepped up to the plate domestically when the DC arrived. I'm certainly still lazy and selfish but I have changed and I do try, and this man may well also change and try. Some of these posts have been a little unfair I feel.

I think OP has also got the message that it's about the disrespect not the cleaning per se and it sounds like she will try and address it with him.

OP I hope all this doesn't put you off returning to the thread and indeed starting any more in future - even if, god forbid, he doesn't change and you still marry him. There is always support on MN for everyone unless they are lazy messy men and I hope you aren't too upset by this.

I hope she isnt offended
I think it's just that so many of us can relate to these sorts of problems and we cant resist the opportunity to offload, it's cathartic, not to mention the validation of knowing that so many others struggle with the same things

Suzanne has a point While i believe that telling someone what to do with their own body is controlling how would you feel about being this guys carer later on OP if he does develop COPD. How would you feel about being his carer when he cant even be bothered to do a bit of food shopping?

Agreed Suzanne, I think a lot of posters have identified with the OP and her situation and as the wedding hasn't taken place, I think a lot of people are looking it from a hindsight angle. As the messy selfish person in my relationship some of this is uncomfortable reading for me so I thought it might be a little upsetting for OP

Sorry to talk about you on your thread btw, OP.

this man may well also change and try

Uh-huh. But "may well" is a bit of a gamble when you're staking half your house, endangering your PhD and risking your future earning potentials.

This is why several of us are in favour of giving the idea of DC a try, just not the marriage.

"Not seeing" housework that needs doing is one thing (although I think it's BS, and rather he notices but doesn't want to do it) but actively flicking fag butts into the hedge rather than use the nearby ashtray is beyond the pale. Who the hell does he think he is doing that?! It's basically saying "I don't give a shit". This in itself would erode so much love for someone I wouldn't risk marrying them. That and the housework issue would be a deal-breaker.

I agree with those saying have a child alone and just have him as a fun boyfriend who you see regularly but not live together.

SoRude, the thing is, previously-untidy women are far more likely to step up to the plate domestically after kids than men are.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the same outcome is likely at all. Men have so much more leeway to get away with not stepping up, than women do - especially post DC.

This problem is far more likely to get worse for the OP after children arrive, than better.

I also couldn't agree more with worksallhours about it not just being a matter of not helping with the housework, but also about not generating extra housework.

It's hard to convey just how much extra work is out upon you when DC arrive, so having a DH who also adds to the load can tip you over.

For those who say OP's partner may change - they've been together 3.5 years - he's had plenty of opportunity after countless discussions with OP.

I agree that it must be very difficult for OP reading all these responses. She started a thread about housework when planning to marry the love of her life, maybe expecting a few replies.

Instead, she has been inundated with responses which are on the whole negative about her partner & relationship.The replies might have blown her mind a little.

TheChicken, I don't think that's necessarily true, it seems a bit sexist!

DH was the SAHD for years so actually it worked very well for us, he had the time to do everything to his standards and I wasn't there much to leave dirty dishes in the sink! Now I'm the SAHP due to illness so i do the basics - although I was told yesterday that my technique for folding the laundry was incorrect we have been married over twenty years so have weathered a lot of household situations. I think as long as there's effort and goodwill on both sides it can work even where people aren't perfect.