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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
educatingarti · 23/02/2015 12:14

Op - it may well be that your fiance is lazy/disrespectful/inconsiderate but does he show any signs of havign anything like dyspraxia? Try googling symptoms in adults.

Glitterspy · 23/02/2015 12:14

Agree with the poster upthread who said you're compatible as long as you get a cleaner.

Twinklestein · 23/02/2015 12:15

You don't hear of many women leaving their pants and socks on the bathroom floor when stressed... Who would pick them up if they did?

I'm not sure about the line 'poor thing is so stressed and so intelligent he can't wash up'.

Nor about the line that there are worse men. Sure there are. Particularly in prison. So what?

Lancelottie · 23/02/2015 12:16

Here's a thought.

You said upthread that you were thinking of creating a manshed (or some such other space) for your DP to be messy in.

How about doing the opposite, admitting that he'll probably continue to drop things round the rest of the house, and instead using any spare cash to create yourself a room that he is NOT allowed to spread into? One lovely, calm, clean space, with comfy chair or sofabed, a bookshelf and a radio, a small table for coffee...

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 12:29

lancelottie - that to me sounds like letting the proverbial Tom-Cat piss/shit all over OP's territory whilst OP retreats in defeat...when what actually is required is that he needs house training (or castration).

This is the OPs house - that she has worked hard to achieve - I get the impression that he is bringing nothing financially to the party - why should she be terrorised by his filth into a corner?

Handywoman · 23/02/2015 12:33

I was a variation on a MylifePart2 theme. I am a strong, independent, capable woman. This can be our downfall, I reckon. I am sure Fedup cannot see the link between herself and us. At the time when ex and I got together I was living an amazing, independent life as a musician. My ex and I spent loads of time going to the cultural events on our doorstep, wonderful social life etc........ The game changer for me was having kids. I was determined that my dc would have a happy, functional home and interested parents, my ex did not have this family blueprint and our relationship became wholly unequal the moment I had dc1. I totally subjugated my needs for years, because I could see he was 'stressed' by it all. He was often angry (different tactic to Mylife's ex) I tried harder, did more, while he opted out of family life and controlled me in subtle ways. And sat, sat, sat, on the sofa. He was also a shit dad, could never step up when anyone was ill etc. He was almost the undoing of me.

He is now having a second adolescence and staying out all night, parting with a new gf.

Good riddance, because kicking him out saved my mental health!

I think this thread should be stickied as a warning about what can happen to strong, capable, independent women!!!!

LakeAmber · 23/02/2015 12:36

I have this mismatch in my relationship. I have nagged, insisted, spelt it out and made a massive feminist stink about it for many years and DP has improved his game a great deal over that time, to the point where he now does a fair share of the jobs and childcare regularly and reliably (or as reliably as me, which is fair enough). And for my part, I compromise on the standard of tidiness and cleanness I live in. But, I still live with someone who is naturally a lazy, scruffy arse and does very little off his own bat or just because it needs doing - and it's tiring because we share a smallish home with 2 DC. We're hoping to move eventually - longer term I would love to have a place where we can have our own rooms and I can have at least one room that stays tidy.

The cleaner/housekeeper is a solution if you work it out so that you get paid help to the full share that he should be doing, and he pays for it out of his money. but that's a lot of help - we're not talking about weekly cleaning but a tone of daily tasks as well.

Alternatively, and what would have made sense for me back when we got together, is marry this man if you love him, but don't live with him. Get him to live nearby in his own private pigsty, share your finances like any married couple but run two properties and ask him to go back to his if he despoils yours. Sounds drastic but there are people who make this work and tbh, it's my ideal (if we could afford it).

And btw I don't think it's petty, it is a big deal and it does matter. It's a huge part of your life and when you have to lose your precious free time doing for someone else what they should be doing, it does make you resentful. Men (usually, or lazy women in some cases) try to get away with shirking off this stuff by giving the impression it's unimportant and you are petty to care about it - you don't have to play along with that.

Handywoman · 23/02/2015 12:46

You don't hear of many women leaving their pants and socks on the bathroom floor when stressed... Who would pick them up if they did?

^^ this

Lancelottie · 23/02/2015 12:52

Maybe, Mylife, but it struck me that they'd discussed solving this by offering him even more space to mess up, also carved out of hers.

I don't see it as retreating to a corner but as refusing to give up the whole house to an unreasonable state of mess.

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 13:18

OP - what is his relationship history?

rosepetalsoup · 23/02/2015 13:46

You don't hear of many women leaving their pants and socks on the bathroom floor when stressed... Who would pick them up if they did?

Haha -you are right. I let me DH off when he does this sometimes (he only does it say once a month). He does all the shopping, lots of the cooking, and organises all the household bills, sorts out car and bins. And does his share of childcare, cooking and tidying. About once a month I sit on the sofa tearfully whinging about nothing in particular. None of us is perfect!!

rosepetalsoup · 23/02/2015 13:51

And actually I do know a couple where the woman leaves her pants/bras all over the bathroom/bedroom floor. Her husband just thinks it's sexy!!!!

rosepetalsoup · 23/02/2015 13:53

On a side note for anyone trying to deal with chronic pant/sock floor littering, I have found that putting the offending pants/socks into the pocket of next-days work trousers usually gets the message across.

VeryStressedMum · 23/02/2015 14:04

If you find it difficult now it will probably become totally unbearable when children cone along.

UndecidedNow · 23/02/2015 14:11

You don't hear of many women leaving their pants and socks on the bathroom floor when stressed... Who would pick them up if they did?

Actually I did.
And dirty dishes in the sink until I had to wash one if I wanted to eat.

DH is MUCH neater than me. So I had to up my standards (and yes he would pick the stuff up or make a comment about how sloppy it is etc).
What made the biggest difference for me has been
1- not wanting to upset my DH and be rude
2- wanting to give the right example to my dcs

but if I was on my own, I know I would go back to these ways.

I can also relate to the idea that I should be evaluated on my work alone and not on my looks. It took me a long time to accept that looks are indeed important (even though it has never been at the level that the OP partner is).

And yes in any other ways, I AM a strong capable woman....

lucymam · 23/02/2015 14:16

Actually, as long as you are reasonably clean and neat I think you should be evaluated on your work and not your looks.

UndecidedNow · 23/02/2015 14:30

Fedupwithmess
Having said that I can be very sloppy indeed whereas my DH isn't, I've actually had similar issues to you.
And wearing the trousers has actually being one of those. As well as DH not 'seeing the mess' or rather seeing and being grumpy because I hadn't tidiep up (1950s type of behaviour rather than not caring the mess).

Atm, you have put your cards on the table. Either he will make a huge effort because he knows this is that important for you even if it isn't to him. Things will improve but will never be perfect (as my DH can testify). And you will have to be happy to 1- be the driving force re HW and 2- be accepting that things will not always be done perfectly.

Or he will make a bit of an effort and slide right back within a few days to what it was before. At that point, you will have to take a decision of whether you can actually live with that and get married or if you can't and have to finish this relationship.

I'm guessing that you might find a middle ground between what you consider an absolutely No-NO (eg putting end of cigarettes all over the lawn or switching off the TV), things you can live with (eg him not ironing his stuff) and things you can compromise on (eg having a cleaner to relieve from some of the HW).
I would talk about children NOW too and how he thinks he would be involved with them, ie will he be that relaxed regarding changing a nappy, feeding a baby/toddler on time rather than 'whenever' or is he going to treat it with the same accuracy than he does at work? It can go both ways but being clear about that is another essential thing to dicuss before getting married imo. Otherwise you will end up in a 1950s role, him being as sloppy as possible and you doping all the running around (whioch you won't be able to sustain. I know, been there, done that...)

QuintessentiallyInShade · 23/02/2015 14:42

OP, I wish I could post pictures of my home. It will give you an idea what happens 10/15 years down the line, when you have children. And the children take their cues from your husband, and you have 3 males in the house creating a mess everywhere. They have been alone for 3 nights, and there is not a surface free of mess. 3 days! I left a shiny beacon of clean and tidy. And I have come home to a pigsty. Dining table, kitchen table, coffee table, kitchen work tops, floors, all covered in "projects".

I am sure that anybody coming into my home now, would think twice about marrying an adorable messhead. Sad If it wasnt for the kids, I would definitely leave, but I am now trapped. He is not a bad man, he is kind and gentle, but his standards are totally different from mine. He is ok with mess. He sees nothing wrong. But me? I feel my heart sink to the pit of my stomach, and i just feel sad and powerless. I have been with him 20 years! 20 years of fighting a losing battle over mess, and I honestly cant wait until the kids have left for uni, so I can get my own little 2 bed flat. I dont want to grow old like this. When we were young, and in a one bed rented flat, it was not so bad, I could cope. But with a family, and a larger home, and years of accumulating belongings and hobbies? It is a nightmare, and I wish my life back to before I met him. I dont wish this kind of life on anyone. Not if you cant see past the mess.

Indantherene · 23/02/2015 15:59

I have a DH who avoids doing anything he doesn't want to (which is most things). I have 3 grown up DSs who think it's fine to just finish a bottle of coke and a packet of crisps and just chuck the empties on the floor, because that's what their dad does. I can follow his progress around the house from the plates, cups and knife on the side with the marge and marmite, coffee and sugar next to them; his clothes on the floor; cups in the living room; wet towel on the bed.

We have a 7 yo who has not been able to use her bedroom, or have anyone around to play, for 2 years because he dumped loads of stuff in there "temporarily" and is going to sort it later... (this is big stuff along the lines of kitchen cabinets and appliances).

I was seriously ill 4 years ago and decided to play him at his own game and not clear up any more. The house is now in such a state I don't know where to start.

This will be you.

Suzannewithaplan · 23/02/2015 16:12

my partner is no where near as housework averse as some of the men described on here, but I still was constantly fuming over the unfair division of labour when we lived together.
I steered him into selling the family home and getting separate places as soon as I saw the opportunity.

We had a lovely and quite large house, I now live in a small flat, I wouldnt go back to sharing for all the tea in china

QuintessentiallyInShade · 23/02/2015 17:08

Oh gawd, yes, the wet towel on the bed, my 12 year old leaves his wet towel on MY bed, no doubt a habit picked up from dad. Or the bathroom floor. With another towel, because you need TWO towels when you shower, because that is cosy.

And how the three of them comes home from the pool, and just hang dirty towels (that has been on the changing room floors) along with dripping swimming trunks on the radiators... I am sure it does my asthma no good, breathing clorine, and wee from million bodies, as it evaporates. Why not just dump it in to the washing machine? No, that would require bending, and an actual thought process.

Children will model their behaviour on the laziest person in the household, because that suits them. And you cant ask them to tidy or put it elsewhere "because daddy does this".

Joysmum · 23/02/2015 17:17

I haven't found that. My dd is good. She wants to please (generally, has her moments though!).

I've got her trained, but then I had the advantage of me being a SAHM and DH working long hours and being away so she could see how much easier it is to keep up with things and tidy as you go along.

I swear she's been reading MN as she has the smile and head tilt off to a tee when DH is a big messy of picks her up on something dhes not done when he's not done what he should. Very funny and the competition between them keeps them both in check Grin

Bluestocking · 23/02/2015 17:34

I wonder where OP is? This has clearly struck a big, loud, resounding chord with so many of us, we should collaborate on a book about it.

My story with my DP is rather similar, although I don't think he's anything like as untidy as the OP's partner. When my DP moved in with me, I didn't even realise I was doing everything, because I had worked fulltime and run my own home for so many years that I didn't notice the very small amount of extra effort that it took to accommodate him. After all, cooking for two is no more effortful than cooking for one; making a double bed is the same whether one or two people have slept in it; and doing two people's laundry is not much more work than doing just your own.

But then our DS came along, and I couldn't do everything any more, and I realised that DP was doing almost nothing. Oh sure, he did DIY when it needed doing, but the everyday cycle of cooking/laundry/hoovering/tidying - nothing. It nearly broke us and it was one of the most awful times of my life. I won't say I didn't enjoy the first two years of DS's life, because I did, but DP's utter feckless laziness and poor attitude really took the shine off what should have been the most wonderful time.

We are OK now, and he is actually much better about day-to-day chores, but I still resent his behaviour during those two years. If we had gone on to have another child, or if he hadn't been able to (albeit slowly) get his head round how he was making me feel, and make efforts to change, we would have split for sure.

PoppyField · 23/02/2015 18:02

Handywoman I hear you! I had a similar one that was nearly the undoing of me... and like you, we had such a nice time before we had children!

Then as soon as we had DC it was as if he believed exactly what yours did - that we were now to become entirely unequal. And guess who was the one that was always in the wrong and needed telling off by Mr Angry? You what? I also was determined that my children should have a happy, functional home with happy, stable parents. Trouble was he didn't seem to value that. He prescribed one fucking grumpy parent and another really sad and rather timid (formerly known as strong, independent and capable) parent.

Yup - life got loads better when I kicked him out. Hurrah for us both!

Fedupwithmess · 23/02/2015 18:25

Hello again. Wow, I am overwhelmed by the number of responses to my thread. Thanks everything for taking the time to post. I will try my best to respond.

rosepetalsoup Everything you've written today has resonated with me.

"I have found that putting the offending pants/socks into the pocket of next-days work trousers usually gets the message across."

This made me laugh out loud - I may have to try this!

"Do you think if you moved somewhere together, thereby giving him the responsibility for helping to choose/set up the house he might grow up a bit?"

OH is very keen for us to buy somewhere larger together. It will be our priority after we marry. He certainly does feel that it's "my" house (although he does make an equal financial contribution) I've owned the house for 10 years, so I'd already put my stamp on it and made the house a home to my tastes years before he came on the scene. I do have a room that is just mine, with none of his stuff in it. I work from home a lot, so that designated space is necessary. I know he would love his own room too - at present the table in the kitchen diner has become his workspace. When he moved in we bought additional wardrobes / bookshelves / chests of drawers so he would have space to put his stuff, but as it's a fairly small house, a lot of his possessions have ended up in the loft. He seems to think that moving somewhere else will put us more on an even keel. While I love the idea of a 4 bedroom house (our room, a room as an office each, a room for a child) I'm not sure how realistic it would be for our budget though!

Re. my relationship with my dad - he is a very capable and extremely good at practical skills in a way that OH is not, ie: when one of the pipes came off the wall outside recently, it was my dad I asked for help, not OH. Sometimes I wonder whether because my dad is so helpful, I'm too quick to find fault if men don't live up to that standard? Dad does get involved less now than he did when he was single, because he doesn't want to tread on OH's toes. The two of them get on well - dad says OH is the only partner I've had who he would be happy to call his son-in-law and that he has had a calming influence on me (my ex was very argumentative and a drama queen) and OH says he loves the fact that my dad looks out for me, because he felt his dad never got involved in family life. OH's mum felt very unappreciated by OH's dad and ground down by "wifework". She's resigned herself to the way that's just the way things are and that her husband is so belligerent he will never change. My OH, who has a wonderful relationship with his mother, does far more to help me in comparison - ie: he will do stuff if asked, just not off his own back (which is what I need to make things completely equal) OH's dad on the other hand would be asked to do things around the home and would simply refuse! OH grew up in a house with 5 siblings, three cats and a dog, where no matter how much his mum tried to keep on top of things, their home was always chaotic, so that was the norm to him. I grew up without any siblings in an immaculate and peaceful home - the complete opposite!

mylife

Sorry, I wasn't intentionally overlooking your posts. I've now had a chance to read your thread that you linked to and I'm very sorry for what you endured throughout my relationship. I had never considered that my OH might be passive aggressive - I understood my ex to be passive aggressive in the sense that he would give me the silent treatment in order to manipulate me and behave extremely inconsistently by being gushing one minute then and then verbally abusive the next. He'd constantly turn things around on me and accuse me of being a bad person for criticising him, even though his foul behaviour more than justified it. My OH has never done any of these things and finds such behaviour disgusting. However, "the person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility," does admittedly relate to my OH. He says he thinks I'm such a strong character that he worries about disagreeing with me, so he sometimes doesn't say what he really thinks because he wants to avoid confrontation. I have told him that I would rather that he just come out with it, even if I didn't agree with his point of view - then, even if I didn't find his suggestions immediately palatable, we would try and find a middle ground.

"What is his relationship history?" He'd been single for most of his life before meeting me. Not in a playing the field / sleeping around sense, but completely and utterly single. He's been in love once before, with a woman with whom he had a short lived but intense relationship with while he was travelling the world, around 12 years ago. The relationship didn't work out because when they returned to their separate countries, they couldn't keep up the momentum. It broke his heart and for a long time he compared everyone new he met disfavourably to her. He now recognises that he put her on a pedestal and it was more to do with feelings he projected on her than their long term compatibility. There was another relationship lasting less than a year with a woman who cheated on him (in a threesome with two other men - nice!) He despises himself for tolerating her bullshit and feels that he wouldn't had he had higher self esteem at that time. In his late twenties he changed careers and was either training or working 7 days a week, so his focus wasn't on meeting anyone - in fact he'd been celibate for a good 4 years when we got together.

I took people's advice and didn't draw up the rota last night. We're waiting until he gets home from work tonight and we're going to do it together.

OP posts: