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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
MonkeySeeMonkeyDooo · 23/02/2015 07:11

You're still doing all the thinking OP. That's just as exhausting.

Brandnewattitude · 23/02/2015 07:22

Well he's not going to change is he? You will marry him and he will drive you demented.

You must love him. How you find man in scruffy shirts and odd shoes physically attractive I don't know but that's your business.

EEEEEEEeeeeeeeee · 23/02/2015 07:33

I have an XP and a 2 DSs like this. They are highly intelligent, academically; all have good jobs. Their heads are wired up differently to mine. They do not see, and sometimes feel, what I do. They might be on the autistic spectrum if tested.

I have found that routines help in getting things done eg put your dirty laundry by the washing machine before you get your dinner.

Getting a cleaner, who will tidy away his crap and iron,would help massively.

Unless he is massively wealthy and you will gain financially when you divorce, I would not rush into marriage with this man.

lavenderhoney · 23/02/2015 08:40

He told you thinks you've been wearing the trousers? And this is now obvious to you both? Is he referring to your desire to share a life and house with someone who joins in with the crappy bits? And now you have the termirty to not just do all the work! he is the boss, not you, even if he is the most useless boss ever- actually this type of boss is quite common. Let's his subordinates do all the work, sits back and praises them for managing without his help, and takes all the credit, especially when other people ( more senior or useful) are around.

You clearly love him. But he won't change. You'll be having your " pull your socks up" talks for ever. If you can stand it, that's fine. And get him to pay for a cleaner to come in daily if that's his solution because, fair enough, he hates housework, that ok. Let him. But that should not impact your life and Financials

And turn off the wifi in the evening. Before you realise couples time in your house is you cleaning and him playing on fb ( working! Yeah, right) then you get to have a shag. Nice.

Suzannewithaplan · 23/02/2015 08:59

I do feel that some have been harsh with the OP, although that may be a case of 'cruel to be kind '

As said it very hard to see what's going on with passive aggression unless it's pointed out to you. Part of the modus operendi is to cause confusion, keep you sweet so that your defenses are down.
Every attack is veiled, he says one thing he does another.
Was it deliberate?
You can never be sure because he always has a good alibi. ?
?
It's a big old can of worms, many mners can relate to these problems and this thread has led me to some serious mulling over of things?

Fedupwithmess · 23/02/2015 09:04

He didn't tell me he thought I'd been wearing the trousers, that was my summation of things on this thread. Obviously I used the wrong phrase.

OP posts:
Suzannewithaplan · 23/02/2015 09:31

The person wearing the trousers is the person holding the power, if you're doing all the organising then you're wearing the overalls while the boss is relaxing in his office leaving you in charge of the menial work.?

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 10:22

The common theme with PA men is that the people who they need to work in a team with and can call them to task are exasperated, frustrated and angry with them - you are at your wits end, his housemates were in despair and his boss sounds like he may have been written off..? Their behaviour is "crazy making".

The constant resistance, ignoring, forgetting, avoiding, obstruction, procrastination, walking out, stone walling, agreeing then not doing, then the sloppy petulant child act when doing, the deliberate half arsed effort so they wont be asked again, the sulking and abdication of responsibility is very wearing. I suspect that the "stress" of his job is really about him being PA in the role - not stepping up enough - not being a team player etc rather than the actual challenges of the role.

This is my story .... decide if you want to go there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1599899-Is-being-an-avoider-a-marriage-deal-breaker?pg=8

wotoodoo · 23/02/2015 10:25

Good luck with your marriage op, you aren't listening but don't worry, plenty of posters start off with I'm at my wit's end/I can't cope/he's driving me demented but is it my fault?/threads and write a long spiel about their selfish and unreasonable partners and then when the MN response is pretty much unanimous the op then comes back and defends him at all costs!

If you want to save your soul reread your original post and the replies to it.

Do not nag like an old fish wife, with a brilliant brain like his and a stressful job he'll make a lovely husband and father and you'll have your happily ever after as long as you clean up after him, iron his shirts, wash out the paintbrush, basically smile lovingly as you pick up after him, redo the family shopping after a reassuring "aah diddums, never mind, you did try my poor love to get everything on the shopping list, never mind, mummikins here will go back to the shop and get the toilet roll, food for the week and nappies for the baby, you did soo well to remember the booze and your aftershave with your brilliant brain and stressful job! Well done my darling boy!". Hmm

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 10:48

wotoodo - it is much much more than housework. PA is not a problem that can be sorted by being out sourced to a cleaner etc

Housework as DINKYs is their only issue atm - this is only the tip of the iceberg for their future life.

The constant resistance, ignoring, forgetting, avoiding, obstruction, procrastination, walking out, stone walling, agreeing then not doing, then the sloppy petulant child act when doing, the deliberate half arsed effort so they wont be asked again, the sulking and abdication of all responsibility -- this behaviour seeps into every part of your life as your responsibilities grow and become more complex with children.

Then there are the constant small acts of rebellion - which is covert abuse. You think you are going mad and are being unreasonable for getting angry. It is like pushing water up hill.

This is how my life turned out (on link above). By this stage I was doing all the housework and all the childcare and working FT as a Sr Manager in a v demanding global company....

Been with my dh for 26 years have 4 kids. He is very mild mannered, intelligent and a devoted (but ineffectual) father. We get on fine when life is rosy but when life is tough his modus operandi (?) is head in the sand, avoider.

I get left to research and make all of the hard complex decisions which leaves me feeing both over loaded and soley responsible which is very pressurizing -- he is still like a teenager when it comes to money, finacial decisions, emotional/educational decisions around the family. He chooses not to get informed so I am unable to sense check anything with him or get any support or direction or feel that anything is a joint decision. He shows no interest in what I am trying to achieve for the children.

On the emotional/health side when I had severe pnd after my 3rd child in 3 years he just chose to spend all of his time out of the home -- he was out 4 nights a week at either football, tennis, committee meetings etc. When he was home (Fri and Sat nights) he drank very heavily, fell asleep and was "not available" as he was just so distant and introverted with major hangovers.

I was left to manage all 3 babies alone night after night which caused me to be really angry. We went to relate as I resented this behaviour but they "framed" it as his way of coping so I forgave him. However we have since had 3 further major crises - another child and a 2nd pnd, devastating sudden death of my mother and a most recently a major financial crisis which has endured for 18 months and requires house and schools move to resolve. The last two have tipped me back into depression. Again on all of these crisises he has not "been there" in any capacity. I have had to grieve alone (he was quite flippant about my grief) and have spent the last 18 months sorting overdrafts, loans, remortgages, school appeals, bailing out his company etc with zero interest or support from him. Additionally 2 of our 4 children are very challenging. My teenage son is aggressive and hits me whilst my husband stands by and watches, my daughter is sen also with severe bahavioral issues and her school and emotional health are another demand of my time. I am going thru a major depressive episode at the moment and exhausted. I just feel what is the point. Time and time again he doesnt step up. I feel disrespected and neglected.

MonkeySeeMonkeyDooo · 23/02/2015 11:00

Why on earth are you with him MyLife? Do you get anything out of your relationship?

AnyFucker · 23/02/2015 11:06

mylife has it not got to the point yet where you realise this situation has tipped over into you would be better without him ? Sad

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 11:16

Monkey - we finally separated 6 weeks ago.

I genuinely did not know what toxic dynamic was in play - I became the bitter exhausted nagging angry wife and thought the marital disharmony, my deep unhappiness was all my fault as I was the one that got angry and he stayed calm. I thought I could fix him, time and time again. I now know I an co-dep - I try too hard for too long, I have low boundaries.

I absorbed decades of his PA abuse, neglect and chaos as I did not really see what was happening - PAs wrap everything in charm and kindness. He too was my best friend - we had an amazing social and cultural life and travelled the world together - fine (ish) as a DINKY.

On reflection I picked up all the responsibilities because I am an exceptionally strong effective intelligent woman and had the capacity then to do so. But fast forward to real life post the DINKY period - kids, parenting, illness, money problems, parents etc - and I continued to pick it all up until it took my mental health, my physical health, my career, my financial bedrock which I had built up from nothing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2275725-Anyone-else-end-up-as-an-angry-banshee-after-living-with-Mr-Nice-passive-irresponsible?msgid=52752790#52752790

I only walked as I saw how it destroyed our children by the crazy good cop bad cop parenting and my children deserve better.

AnyFucker · 23/02/2015 11:18

I hadn't read the link to your old thread when I posted my reply, mylife

please make this separation a permanent one

MonkeySeeMonkeyDooo · 23/02/2015 11:22

What AF said. Thank god you aren't with him anymore, but please do not ever go back. Your children deserve so much better and so do you, don't forget that.

wotoodoo · 23/02/2015 11:30

Mylife Flowers it just goes to prove selfish, disrespectful partners can bring down the most super efficient, strongest and most capable of women :(

TheBug · 23/02/2015 11:31

I think, or hope, OP's DP isn't quite as bad as Mylife's ex.

That said, even less extreme issues of this kind can grind a person down in the end.

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 11:34

It is 100% permanent. I have also been robbed of being the lovely mother I so wanted to be and ny children having a lovely calm, nurturing childhood. Having a big happy family was really important to me - that why I had 4, thats why I did all the work, thats why I stayed too long - I did not want my children to be from a broken home. He ruined it by his crap parenting, undermining my parenting efforts - exhausting and frustrating me to a physical and mental breakdown - so he robbed our children of their mother. I was so diminished I did not have the energy or the mental head space to tackle leaving him until now. The motivation was that I wanted my children to experience a happy home - to experience a loving calm Mother - not the exhausted distracted angry wife they witnessed caused by their chaotic PA father. My oldest is 16 and (hopefully) will leave home in 18 months to go to uni. It was my last chance to restore order and create a happy home. Things have been great from day one when he left. Though I have had to suck up their perception that Disney Dad was chucked out by Angry Banshee Mother. They are hurt by this but I have had to be strong and see the long game - and as I said everything is 100% better. Should have done it years ago. Should never have married him.

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 11:42

TheBug - my STBXH was EXACTLY like OPs OH when we were DINKYs as they are.

I am telling my story to show how PA behaviour seeps into a future life with kids. See what all the other Mners married to a PA man have experienced.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2275725-Anyone-else-end-up-as-an-angry-banshee-after-living-with-Mr-Nice-passive-irresponsible?msgid=52752790#52752790

The OP needs to look v closely at PA personality disorder to decide if this is what she is dealing with - it is not confined to household chores - it is obvious in all aspects of the relationship.

AnyFucker · 23/02/2015 11:54

very good advice, mylife ...I am sorry you had to learn it the hard way Sad

I hope op takes note, because I fear she is setting herself up for a similar kind of dynamic

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 11:55

I suspect that the PA suggestion has hit a nerve with the OP. I have posted multiple times on this thread, some v deliberately challenging Qs and observations - and whilst responding to very many other PPs - the OP has pointedly ignored every single Q, challenge and observation from me.

AnyFucker · 23/02/2015 11:59

that would be a shame, but I expect you did exactly the same thing when still in the "bubble" of thinking that if you just tried a bit harder, found the right way to phrase something so he would just understand etc

it's a common scenario...the problem is of course that is massively benefits the lazy, entitled, disrespectful types and massively subjugates your own wants and needs from a relationship

Peony58890 · 23/02/2015 12:02

Why don't you both draw up a list of jobs that need to be done and you can both pick which ever ones you feel like doing each day.

rosepetalsoup · 23/02/2015 12:06

Hi OP (if you are still reading). I think your fiancé sounds ok, and quite charming really. It doesn't sound like he's that bad and a lot of people give up smoking eventually. I think it would be a mistake to leave him! Marriage is quite hard work when you're an independent woman. My husband is very useful round the house but I still go through patches where I am furious at him (for, e.g., saying he'll sort out the garden months ago and just not doing it). You do also sound a little OTT about housework. Do you think if you moved somewhere together, thereby giving him the responsibility for helping to choose/set up the house he might grow up a bit?

I see you are very well set up with your parents. I have a friend like this -- she adores her dad particularly, like it sounds that you do, and it can make her husband seem like a little boy in comparison. There's something about her dad still being the 'man of the house' (even though they have their own house, and kids) that prevents her husband from taking that role, iyswim. He isn't going to be like your dad.

I actually feel a bit sorry for your husband. Not on the housework front but because you say he is very stressed about work. Just because men are traditionally in the work role doesn't mean you shouldn't feel sorry for him. When my DH is stressed with work he often leaves his pants and socks on the bathroom floor etc. inexplicably! I used to scream at him but now I don't. He is very affected by stress. I think your friend has probably seen lots of men behaving in lots of ways in her time and is trying to indicate to you that you've got a good one. Nobody's perfect, but when I was single I met a lot of men much worse than your DH.

No really definitive comments there, just to say good luck. I think you are probably anxious about taking the plunge into marriage and giving up your independence / yoking yourself permanently to someone else. You can see the risk involved, and the possibilities you're shutting down, and also you don't need to marry as you are self-sufficient and have your own house and income and so on. But I think it sounds like you have a really good dialogue with your partner and that it sounds like he really loves you. It is scary!! But often worth it. You can work through this problem together.

rosepetalsoup · 23/02/2015 12:11

P.s. Also I completely empathise with your really very romantic reason for getting married - that you wanted to celebrate a deeper bond at the next level with this man, who you really fell in love with. If you can remember that throughout your marriage you will be fine, and I know you say that his lack of housework is eroding the love but also you are letting it get eroded by ceasing to believe in him a little. He has listened to you these past few days and it sounds like he does want to change. It is good to get married for romantic love. I don't agree with the person who said 99% compatible isn't enough. My friend's husband said to her when proposing that he knew he wasn't her ideal man but that he wanted to work to become it!!