At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

[Fedupwithmess]

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

My DH has a list of jobs so he knows what are his responsibilities. I said that sometimes it'll all need doing, sometimes a quick wipe, sometimes nothing at all. His standards aren't the same as mine but then mine aren't too fussy otherwise I'd tell it all needed doing properly every week so I just say it needs a proper going over or a bit of a wipe if he's not seeing it. It's mo biggy.

I truly believe it's not a sign of an underlying problem. Why? Because he sees things I don't which need doing. Eg repointing, guttering, electricity, boiler, drains etc. If I judge him for not seeing what is obvious to me, by default he'd have every right to judge me for the same. In fact, the things he sees are more important ant than cleaning because they are maintenance that affect the fabric of our home whereas cleaning doesn't matter so much.

He'll tell me what will need attention and do it without complaint thank gif because it's not my fault it's not on my radar.

Luckily between the 2 of us we compliment each other because we've hit all the bases covered between us

The problem would be if either of us got arsey, resented the other for pointing out what needs doing or took it as critisism.

Fgs, sorry about the typos

So, since my last post OH and I have had a serious talk about our situation, lasting over 2 hours. I told him that things couldn't go on as they have been as I've been feeling so resentful that I was beginning to question whether getting married was the right thing to do, as I didn't want that resentment to grow to the extent where it eroded the love we had and I certainly didn't want to exchange vows with him when I had even a shred of doubt about our future. He was very saddened by my admission. I said I'd held back on being so frank because I feared that any kind of confrontation would lead to him walking off and ultimately just making things worse. He was receptive to everything I had to say and recognised that his behaviour had been disrespectful. It's obvious that I have been wearing the trousers in the relationship and that's not a situation that either of us are entirely comfortable with - I want him to get involved more and start doing things off his own back.

In the past, I have tried making daily lists of jobs for him to do, and he would do them (to his standard) and I have also made lists of everything I do (to make him realise I do the lions share) but neither of these approaches got us to a point where I felt we were working as a team when it came to housework. Today I said to him that I was going to draw up a weekly rota of jobs for both of us and he agreed that it was a good idea, so I'm hoping that we might be able to make some headway.

To the poster who asked why I felt the need to get married - I've been in numerous long-term relationships before and never felt the need to tie the knot, even when all my friends were going down the route, so it's certainly not for want of feeling "left out", or because I wanted a wedding more than a marriage. The fact is that from the early stages of our relationship, we both felt that the connection we had (on every level other than domestic compatibility, obviously) was so strong and special that we wanted to set it apart from everything that had gone before by taking it to the next level.

To the poster who wondered whether OH was conveniently using work stress as an excuse, the demands of his job have been an ever looming presence in our lives and certainly not something he turns on only when he wants me to be lenient. Because my father did the same job and I grew up witnessing what he went though, I am probably a lot more understanding than most about how draining it can be. My job is demanding too in the sense it requires every ounce of my brain power not to mention the long hours, but it isn't stressful in the sense his is, ie: if I under perform, it makes me look bad. If he under performs, it could be detrimental to large numbers of vulnerable people. There are times when we have both been reduced to tears over work, but the difference is, I've never shunned my responsibilities around the house regardless of how consumed by work I am.

Without going into too much detail re. my friend, I don't think her the domestic ineptitude of her partners (and her acceptance of this ineptitude) has played much of a role in her relationships not woking out. Her marriage to the father of her 2DCs broke down because he worked away for months on end and ended up having an affair. She started divorce proceedings as soon as she found out. In the decade since then she's had LTR's but they've never got to the living together stage, partly because she's reluctant to disrupt her DCs lives and partly because she's not judged the men as reliable enough - ie: pursuing their own whimsical dreams to to the extent where family life would always come second. The irony is, that she married her exDH precisely because she thought he was the solid, dependable type, rather than her usual enigmatic, offbeat creative type. She thought he would be a good father and provider. In reality, he was distant, stoic, and (in my eyes) utterly incompatible with her.

I've lost count of the number of times that friends have said to me "you and OH are the most compatible couple I know" and yes - we bounce off each other in social situations, we pursue shared interests, we're intellectual equals, we clearly have plenty of physical chemistry - but of course (otherwise I wouldn't be posting on here) there are incompatibilities, which manifest themselves behind closed doors. Granted, 99% compatible (given the amount of time housework takes and the resentment the issue has harboured) is an exaggeration, but the good far outweighs the bad. Whether we can keep the balance in our favour through communication and cooperation and iron out the last of our incompatibility remains to be seen...

Today I said to him that I was going to draw up a weekly rota of jobs for both of us and he agreed that it was a good idea

You said to him
You were going to draw up... for both of you
He agreed

So he was receptive to what you said, yet you're still driving this?

Seriously, does he not have to do some equivalent planning at work? No transferable skills to bring to bear on the business of devising rotas?

I take your point bug. He is now planning work for tomorrow and at a conservative estimate will be working until midnight. I could probably wait until a time when he is free and we can do it together. I suppose I just wanted to get it sorted now. Maybe that's me wearing the trousers again and I should hold back?

Well done, OP, for laying your cards on the table.

In the spirit of joint responsibility, can you not both agree on jobs, and devise the rota?

Yes, it is you wearing the trousers; it's just shifting the issue from work to planning. The dynamic is the same.

He needs to be an equal and pro-active participant at all levels.

Sole responsibility for writing lists and rotas endlessly isn't a life of joy.

interesting use of the phrase 'wearing the trousers'
it implies taking the mans role.
Surely OP 'wearing the apron' would be a more apt metaphor for taking control of domestic work.
Either that or 'being mother'?

I couldn't marry a man who saw me as just a vagina with a mop. And I have the self esteem of a gnat.

I wish you the best of luck OP

You aren't wearing the trousers - sorry but he most definitely is. You just think you are because you make the decisions after his decision to opt out of all the wife work.

Sorry but I would just do it myself with regards to cleaning etc as clearly you're not happy with his efforts when he does! As for ironing I wouldn't get the iron out and not do the rest of the family stuff, seems odd to me. As for his personal appearance - well he really is on his own there

Glad you had a good talk.

The main thing is willingness on both parts. I accept my DH won't do things to my standards but then he accepts my limitations too on the things that are important to him.

I'm glad neither of us expects perfection in the other. Nowt wrong with either of us managing the other when required, as long as we are both prepared to manage and be managed. If you find he's being difficult for the sake of being a twat then you've got problems but you're certainly in for some interesting times. Don't be tempted to to take over because you won't be helping in the medium/long term if you do

Also don't be tempted to take up slack due to his work stress without explicit communication. No more 'assumptions' on this issue.

Good luck!!

I sincerely hope it works out for you, you clearly love him very much.

Have you set a deadline (I know that sounds a bit clinical) to review the situation? He certainly wants you to believe he will pull his weight. I would worry that

A. You will always have to be the proactive one or
B. Things will get better and then just revert back (probably after your wedding if I'm being cynical

I hope for your sake he really does realise how disrespectful has has been and makes a genuine effort. I think it's important all this isn't driven by you, he needs to show you he is making an effort and not just waiting for you to hand out tasks. I'm not explaining this very well, sorry. He needs to walk the walk, anyone can talk the talk, particularly your charming man

Maybe you can print out this thread and re read it in say a month and see how you think things have gone. I really hope he steps up.

But you have had these conversations many times before - and nothing changes.......

His pattern is that he agrees to everything you say at the time (to avoid conflict) and then after a day or so reverts to type.

Why will it be different this time?

What is the specific time limit and what is the specific consequence if he doesn't comply or if he 'slips' or "forgets"?

Has he since reversed his decades entrenched dismissive/entitled attitude - so that chores are now important to him?

NOPE - he is just saying what you want to hear - to deflect any conflict and get you off his back for now. Then he will be back to his hostile PA ways.

My STBXH was my intellectual soul mate - we buzzed off each other socially, creatively etc.....but the PA man child shit erodes love and respect inch by inch - when you are still picking his dirty pants off the bathroom floor - when you are micro managing this man child -- it is vv unsexy - you do not want to have sex with a child.

The work stress is typical moaning victim PA man child nonsense -- if he can't cope with the job - go do something else.

You seem to be enabling/accepting/accommodating this.

if he isnt resilient don't let him drain you and your career as he muddles and moans through his.

OP, I think you're being a bit too NICE about this.

I think he's just saying yes to get you off his back & will revert to form again, sooner or later.

Your best indication to future behaviour is past behaviour.

He seems lazy and attention less to the core, not to mention lacking in courtesy to you. He really does not care much about what you think, he is wants to be a slob.
What makes you think he will be able to change such an
Intrinsic part of his
Persona even if he wanted to? He seems bereft of motivation and self control!

Surely you are not seriously thinking of marrying him???

On what planet do you actually think
You have a "connection" and are equals?

You are a maid that he also shags!

Think these recent posts are a bit harsh, tbh

Passive aggressive behaviour can be difficult to recognise at first. It is recognisable by the disconnect between what the person says and what they do. Passive aggressive people tend to express their negative feelings in an indirect manner, rather than state their disapproval directly to the person concerned. There tends to be a great deal of hostility associated with passive aggressive behaviour and a great deal of this tends to be derived from miscommunication, failure to communicate or the assumption that the other person knows what they are thinking or feeling. From a relationship perspective,passive aggressive behaviour can be the most difficult communication style to deal with as you are not quite sure what you are dealing with.

8 Examples of passive aggressive behaviour

There are many different ways in which passive aggressive behaviour can be expressed. The following list, though not exhaustive, covers some of the most common examples.

1. Resenting the demands of others

When others make requests or demands of them, passive aggressive people will often view them as unfair or unjust. Rather than express their feelings, they will bottle them up and resent the other person for making the demands. They quickly forget that they did not have to agree to the demand, or that they could have voiced their feelings at the time that the request was made.

2. Deliberate procrastination

Procrastination, the act of putting off that which needs to be done, is often a subconscious decision. With passive aggressive people, however, it is often a conscious decision. Rather than tell the other person that they cannot agree to their request, the passive aggressive person will delay completing the request until the very last moment, or later. This is aimed at punishing the other person for having the audacity to make the request.

3. Intentional mistakes

Again, rather than say ‘No’, passive aggressive people sometimes find it easier to deliberately perform poorly at a task. The hope is that they will not be asked again due to the substandard work.

4. Hostile attitude

As they often assume that others know how they feel, passive aggressive people tend to immediately assume that anything they do not approve of was an intended to be a jibe at them. For example, they may assume that their boss knows that they have a full workload. When he boss makes a request of them, they assume that the has something against them and wants to put excessive pressure on them. It never crosses their mind that they could point out to their boss that they have a full schedule and he would then ask somebody else to help.

1. Complaints of injustice and lack of appreciation

Everything is viewed as an attack on them. When something doesn’t go their way, it is seen as unfair or an injustice. It’s all about how the world impacts on them.

6. Disguising criticism with compliments

At first, passive aggressive people may seem pleasant and warm. They often appear to be complimentary. It is only after they have left that you realise that the compliment was actually disguising a cheap jibe.

1. The last punch

Passive aggressive people love to throw the last punch. So much so, that even when an argument has been reconciled, they slip one last insulting remark into the conversation. This remark is often more subtle than the ones which went before but it is still an insulting remark which allows them to feel victorious.

1. The silent treatment

As stated at the start, passive aggressive behaviour is recognisable by the disconnect between what is being said and what is being done. Nothing highlights this more than the famous silent treatment. Silence generally signifies agreement but not in this case. When you are on the receiving end of the silent treatment, you realise that the other person is far from agreeable. They have a big problem with you and just to allow themselves the Pyrrhic victory, they have no intention of telling you what that is.

There are 2 other common versions of the silent treatment. One is to answer the question ‘What’s wrong?’ with ‘nothing’, when there certainly is something wrong. The other, which sadly I used to use myself, is to answer any question with just one word. This is intended to signal that there is a problem, without you having to say it. I used to pride myself on the complexity of the questions which I could answer with just one word.

I think some of the most recent posts are a bit harsh but I agree that there's no guarantee that he's not going to backslide just like all the other times. What can the OP do if he doesn't? Apart from calling off the wedding which she doesn't seem much inclined to, understandably. He knows perfectly well she doesn't want to break up with him.

I really want to believe that this conversation the OP finally has got through to him, but I'm not convinced things are going to change fundamentally long term.

OP has to either accept him as he is or decide to move on - sorry to be blunt but just the way I see it

we bounce off each other in social situations, we pursue shared interests, we're intellectual equals, we clearly have plenty of physical chemistry

...this is all good. Though of course, you need more: you need kindness, caring, and real respect between you. If this in place, in roughly equal measure - you will be ok.

It's good you had the talk and made your feelings clear. I hope you have the breakthrough you need now..

This is ridiculous. He needs to write the lists as the person who has to think in order to write things down internalises what is on the paper. The receiver of the list can glance over it and probably forget about it sooner.

The dynamics are what troubles me in all this. Op you wear the trousers which is the problem? Get real.