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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
GallicIsCharlie · 21/02/2015 22:26

Or even ... Cancel the wedding, boot him out, and carry on seeing him as your boyfriend. You can have his intelligent babies and he can play Disney Dad on visits.

But your home will be your domain. You'll be able to see what's what, you'll know what needs doing and you'll sort it out.

Dognado · 21/02/2015 22:31

Live separately?

Mylifepart2 · 21/02/2015 22:36

Vino, it sounds as if your dad has designed a strategy to deliberately and precisely mess with your poor mums sanity.
Except it cant be because he's so kind he would never deliberately upset her. Perhaps it's the perfect crime, he gets away with it because no one would believe that a kind person would be cruel

Suzannewithaplan - this is how PA men work. The abuse is covert - they use charm and charisma to distract. They spend their life creating an image of "Mr Nice" - but are subtly hostile - in many small ways - dead by a thousand cuts.

OP he will take your sanity, your happiness, your health, your money, your home - and your career - he will look out for himself and further his career whilst your hard won career is eroded as you spin all the chore/childcare plates - it will exhaust and exasperate you....this is happening already.

His housemates were in "despair" with him - but he used charm to deflect conflict.

What % of your downtime (not work, commuting or sleep) does the 3hrs/day chores take up?

What % of your mental head space is taken up with planning what and when to do chores, what needs buying, what bills need paying, admin needs doing?

What % of your emotional capacity is consumed and polluted with resentment, bitterness, nagging him, feeling disrespected, feeling exasperated and frustrated over this issue?

TREBLE this when you have a child.

It is not 1%.

You need to give him clear ultimatums. He needs to basic standard adult responsible stuff NOW. He needs to step up within a week or it is over.
This precious buffoon/mad professor persona is contrived and pathetic.

meandjulio · 21/02/2015 22:42

I'm another who thinks this could be an absolutely wonderful relationship if you didn't live together. So what if Helena Bonham Carter is divorcing - they had a great relationship for quite a long time AFAIK.

I would have a genuine, open, all night long and a couple of bottles type of discussion on how you see the future, the kinds of people you want to be. Because you don't want to be a nag, but you also don't want to be someone who has a shitty house - why should you? If you like living in a clean space, why shouldn't you? If you didn't live with him, no doubt it WOULD be clean, and not on 3 hours work a day either. I'm assuming the children would live with you - you could bring them up to be tidy and organised as well.

I wonder where he would live, if not with you. Do you think he could afford a houseboat as well as his share of the child costs? Just imagine, he could smoke, ignore his surroundings, live on creme eggs, no nagging, nothing. And you could have an actual life.

I am comparing here my mother's relationship with my father, which began to break down after they had a second child and he was still epically useless (typically, he thinks it started to break down 20 years after that), and my mother's relationship with her boyfriend, who she has never lived with - still lovebirds after 20 years.

AWholeLottaNosy · 21/02/2015 22:46

So OP, you have had a pretty unanimous verdict from the MN jury. The question is, what are you going to do..?

Suzannewithaplan · 21/02/2015 23:13

If a couple such as these ceases to live together, would the man want to continue in the relationship?

It seems that the payoff for him is that he gets a domestic servant, he clearly likes and feels entitled to a situation where he gets to please himself while someone else does the donkey work.
If the dynamic changes what would he do?

GallicIsCharlie · 21/02/2015 23:13

I'm dying to know whether you talked to your friend, and how that went?

anonacfr · 22/02/2015 09:24

I'm curious to know if the OP's fiancé did the food shopping as he had promised (and failed to do).

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 22/02/2015 10:19

"His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then hes refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes he remains insistent that its not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!"

This man's arrogance is astounding! I'm really surprised he hasn't been sacked yet.

wotoodoo · 22/02/2015 10:27

Everyone has a charming, kind side. It is the dark side that matters.

He may be lovely in all other respects but you know yourself he has a total lack of concern and respect for your feelings, your opinions, your mental health ( believe me , yours will suffer living with such a selfish man who everyone else thinks is wonderful!) your property etc etc.

What does this say about you? Are you so desperate/ egotistical ( got to go through with the wedding as too embarrassed to pull out/got to have kids with him else I'll miss the boat).

You're already questioning the fairytale happy ever after by posting on here, that's a good start. Seeing it in black and white tells you all you need to know.

Your heart will probably lead to your decision. No cleaner or p.a could ever be expected to clean up after the trail your toddler fiance leaves behind.

The fact he hasn't learnt the basics ( even my toddler knows how to put things in the bin) and is resistant to 'being trained' makes him not only the house guest from hell but also the room mate from hell!

This would also make him the husband from hell and the daddy from hell because he'd get the dc on his side and complain about mummy being a nag and being angry all the time!

Get him out of your house for starters and do nothing for him if he stays. Say nothing and never nag him again and see how long you can bear it!

He ignores you for a reason. Find out if he treated his mother/ female housemates the same way.

Stop making demands on him and expect nothing from him.

Doing things to make you happy is not on his radar and (voluntarily) never will be.

His lack of care, concern and empathy for you is evident and he is not pretending to have any so you can't be shocked if you go through with the wedding and suddenly expect him to be a different person!

In marriage you need to find a partner who loves, cherishes and cares for you and your feelings in mutual respect.

That is the basis for a loving and peaceful environment in which to bring dc into the world.

Fluffed · 22/02/2015 11:15

I very rarely post and have nc'd but felt I really needed to say something.

There are some similarities between your oh and my dh. We have 2dcs (ds born 14 months after we first met. We get on well and have same taste in music, comedy, films and enjoy all going out as a family doing things we really enjoy.

However, the domestic side of life is a complete nightmare and mostly I have had to just get used to the disorganisation. I have been away with the kids for 4 days and house is quite tidy because there's only been him here and he's been at work for most of it.
When I left there was washing in washing machine and so I texted him to ask him to get the washing out, smooth it down and put on radiator which he did. Basically if I ask him he does it but doesn't even see or notice anything if I don't.

It drives me crazy, there are also loads of other things he does such as leaving keys at work (loads), leaving credit cards in shops (loads and loads). However he always dresses well.

No advice really and reading the posts have reminded me what a friggin pain it all is but I have decided that the other stuff is more important to me and I will put up with the other stuff.

He is v good with the kids though

Miggsie · 22/02/2015 11:26

I'm currently studying the division of domestic labour as part of my psychology degree and sadly, if a man doesn't want to do anything round the house - he won't. He'll expend all his energy avoiding doing anything or justifying why he shouldn't do anything. He won't put any energy into work he doesn't want to do.

OP you will end up a skivvy to this lazy shite and he won't even notice or be grateful.
Pack it in now and find someone else.

Nagging for me is defined by: man feels entitled to live off the unpaid work of women which he neither notices or is grateful for, however he will notice when it isn't done, so you will only ever be criticised and never appreciated. Women who try to argue they feel overworked and unappreciated will be defined as being bitter, nagging, a pain etc etc.

What resources or arguments exist to enable a woman to argue she should do less and the man more...? Not many...and you can't introduce sanctions or anything so you're stuffed. You will be called a nag though.

Leave and find a bloke who doesn't think women are skivvies.

Suzannewithaplan · 22/02/2015 11:36

?
Re sanctions, indeed you have no leverage at all, any action that you take will hurt you more than it hurts him, you are always the one who is more stressed, who suffers more.
Add children into the mix and you are further on the back foot because they will suffer if you don't maintain domestic harmony, having children gives him even more power?

GallicIsCharlie · 22/02/2015 13:18

That's really interesting, Miggsie! I wonder what the men on this course think about it? (Sorry, slight diversion while Fedup surveys last night's debris ...)

vdbfamily · 22/02/2015 14:46

the point is that OP is not a skivvy to this guy.She is doing all the stuff that is important to her.If he was living alone,that stuff would not get done by him,it would just not happen. He would eventually put bins out once he had missed a few collections, he would eat when he felt like it,the house would be untidy and he would do laundry when he eventually ran out of clothes. He is not expecting her to do anything for him.

MinginInTheRain · 22/02/2015 15:18

agree that it will only get worse with children. Sounds like you have a lot to do to get him to 'change' before children come along.

Does he want to change? Sounds like he doesn't think it's important enough to do this for you, as you have talked to him before.

fWIW I was the messy slob when I got together with my DH. I honestly didn't see the mess, thought he was a bit anal and uptight and rather uncool. Soon changed my ideas as time went by and babies came along. Realised they needed it even if I didn't much care for it. Plus, and this is the important bit, I finally got how much it meant to him. Slowly dawned on me how much it mattered to him and therefore how rude it was to ignore and belittle it. Now think I care more than he does about that side of life. Looking back I must have been such a supreme pain in the arse. But I changed for him (trying to think of how he has changed for me... Give me a minute)

Fedupwithmess · 22/02/2015 16:07

Hello everyone, my friend has just left so I now have time to update.

So yesterday OH apologised for his petulance over not buying the food the day before. He's always affectionate, but he was even more so, as if trying to seek reassurance from him that I wasn't still pissed off with him (I was, but let it go, as my friend was due round) He went to the supermarket to get the food, and he finally brought the paintbrush back in from the garden that had been out there for a month. Ok, he forgot some of the essential items we needed, and had to go to the shops a second time, and he put the sodding paint brush back in the drawer without washing it out, but the thought was there, if not the thoroughness...he also helped with other stuff around the house at my request, like changing the beds.

Anyway, we had a lovely day out with my friend and her boys and when we got back home, OH started to cook dinner as promised and my friend and I got some time alone. Friend asked me whether OH was ok, because he was visibly stressed - OH had freely admitted to her earlier in the day that he felt like a dark cloud was hanging over him because of the pressure he is under at work. I said I was feeling tense too because resentment was building that he never helped around the house unless I asked him to and I didn't feel I could push the issue further because of how work is weighing so heavy on his mind right now. Her response? That every man she'd ever been in a relationship with had been useless around the house! It's never been a deal breaker for her because by her own admission having a clean ordered house isn't as high on her list of priorities as mine. However for other reasons her relationships haven't worked out, which means she has been a single parent for over a decade - it's been a huge struggle for her and she seems to think my OH would be a great dad.

"The point is that OP is not a skivvy to this guy. She is doing all the stuff that is important to her.If he was living alone, that stuff would not get done by him, it would just not happen." This is so true. But for those of you asking why I asked him to move in knowing that his domestic priorities were different to mine, it works both ways - he knew what I expected before he agreed to move in with me! I have told him time and time again that I don't want a puppet who just does things when I ask him to. I want him to notice when things need doing and just do them off his own back. He says he'll make the effort, but it's been proven time and time again that those things just aren't on his radar, and so it goes on...there really is no neat conclusion from me here (pardon the pun) I'm just splurging my thoughts.

OP posts:
GallicIsCharlie · 22/02/2015 16:22

You've already tried lists & rotas, haven't you?

This really does need a strong, focused discussion with him. It's a massive obstacle to your future happiness together - and I do mean your orderliness is potentially as big a problem for him, as you might be genuinely unable to live with him long-term, as his slovenliness is for you.

Living separately could be one way forward. You need his sttention to the issue, his feedback and his ideas.

Good to hear the visit went well :) Sorry to hear your friend's opinion of men is so poor.

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually · 22/02/2015 17:12

Has his stress come about since you raised the subject of domestic arrangements? I sympathise having had a very stressful job in the past but it didn't give me carte blanche to expect my DH to run around after me. If it has coincided with the relationship issues, it could be a bit manipulative. I apologise if I'm wrong but it smacks to me of, I'm nude pressure, I'm so stressed stop adding to it by being so anal and nagging.

I don't agree that all men are useless around the house at all. I said earlier my DH is the tidy and clean one in our relationship and lots of other posters have said the same. And as before, it's not the fact he isn't naturally tidy and clean, it's the fact he doesn't respect you enough to make the effort. Even when he knows it's a massive problem, he's still doing stuff badly, petulantly and at "your request".

You sound a bit fed up and I don't blame you. What do you think you want to do next?

anonacfr · 22/02/2015 17:13

Ok this visit to the supermarket thing really winds me up on your behalf. Having to go back a second time seems like a cop out. Like next time you'll go instead of him to make sure the essentials aren't forgotten.

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually · 22/02/2015 17:15

FFs under pressure not nude pressure!!!!

And I've just said on another housework thread, rotas are what my teenagers have to avoid washing up bickering. Do you need a rota? A fully functioning NT adult should not need another adult to tell them what needs doing in the home they live in and share. It's just another way of you having to prompt and supervise.

Twinklestein · 22/02/2015 17:16

OP, have you actually sat him down, carved up the chores 50:50, written them all and posted them on the fridge so he has a reminder of everything he's supposed to do?

Continually asking for help and more effort is not the same as saying: you have conceived of adult relationships wrong, 50% of these chores have to be shouldered by you, you have to pull your weight.

It's more a question of a philosophy of functional relationships rather than who cleans the loo on what day.

I think it's interesting that your single mother friend settled for guys who didn't pull their weight, and none of those relationships worked out. While you say they didn't work out for other reasons, the whole chores question is actually about so much more than cleaning, it goes right to the heart of the relationship. Men who are lazy and entitled round the house tend to be the same in other aspects of the relationship, particularly with childcare. Your mate may be thinking at this point that any guy would be better than none, but the problem is if you settle for any guy on that basis, you may end up with none anyway.

Suzannewithaplan · 22/02/2015 17:29

Agree with Twinkle, when one person doesn't pull his (or her weight) domestically it's a sign of an underlying problem.

That being that he wants a parasitic relationship as opposed to a symbiotic set up.
Even if the housework issue is somehow addressed his underlying belief that a partner can be expected to serve his needs is likely to sour other area's of life.

he put the sodding paint brush back in the drawer without washing it out
isn't that a deliberate act of sabotage thinly veiled as the behavior of the absent minded genius?

He does what you want but in such a way that it creates more work for youHmm

GallicIsCharlie · 22/02/2015 17:32

I agree the problem's not so much about housekeeping as his attitude to your concerns. You're evidently distressed and exhausted; his response is to put you down.

I can see how much you want this thing to work out, and I really wish it would. I rather feel it's going to take a much stronger approach than you've mounted so far - and, when you do that, you need to be prepared for unsatisfactory responses.

Honestly, I'm so cross with him! I'm the slob of the century but even I appreciate why it matters to people, and how much.

AnyFucker · 22/02/2015 17:37

your friend basically said "stop nagging him" then ?

crap advice