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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
Bogeyface · 21/02/2015 02:30

Yes I think that option 1 is the probably the most realistic, but I must ask, why do you think that it should be 4?

It does come across very clearly that you expect him to come up to your standard rather than you considering dropping to his. Why is that?

Bogeyface · 21/02/2015 02:31

Have you considered the possibility that your expectations are unrealistic?

MonkeySeeMonkeyDooo · 21/02/2015 07:38

You do realise when you have children you will be doing everything. There is nothing quite like newborn tiredness, it tests the vey bones of your relationship.

Also, stop ironing, it's not necessary. I appreciate work clothes may need to be ironed but if you're doing more than that you're making unnecessary work for yourself.

Quangle · 21/02/2015 07:40

He may be a slob but I'd struggle to spend three hours a day cooking and cleaning if I had no DCs. I keep a tidy (enough) house on far less. I think you both need to do some adjusting

The comments about women on MN are more of a red flag for me tbh.

Brandnewattitude · 21/02/2015 07:51

I don't understand how you can say he is wonderful 99% of the time but the 1% bugs the hell out of you. His behaviour must affect far more than 1% of your relationship. It affects the way you live all day long and if he is so scruffy that his boss has had to have a word with him, then every time you look at him the issue is there as well. I couldn't put up with him.

VioletMoon4683 · 21/02/2015 07:58

How do your 3 hours split up? An hour cooking, half an hour cleaning up after cooking, an hour and a half doing other jobs? What sort of thing? Daily hoovering isn't necessary with just the two of you.

I have 4 boys and spend an hour cooking and two hours on chores/cleaning. Each family member (dependant on age) has a small job like loading/unloading the dishwasher or sweeping the floors but I do the bulk of the work.

VioletMoon4683 · 21/02/2015 08:00

OP how tidy/clean are you? What's your usual routine each day?

CoffeeBeanie · 21/02/2015 08:12

I think some of his behaviour is surely attitude to mess. And the way he accept your unhappiness about it as "c'est la vie" is worrying.

I met my dh very young, we moved together when I was 19, he was 21. I think in the last 20 years we have grown and developed together, and we have changed. Not fundamentally, but enough to make sure the other person is comfortable and happy.
That's what I'm missing in your descriptions of him. My dh also works in a very demanding job, uses only his brain, but that doesn't mean using a washing machine is too unchallenging for him or he can't keep clean & tidy something he had to learn early on in our relationship

He has no DiY skills whatsoever, but then I love DIY and I'm good at it.
We are polar opposites and still it can work.

You met your DP after he got away with a lot for 10 years, never compromising for a partner. He has to realise his selfish days are over if he wants a happy relationship.

Tell him all of his mess is a turn off, you don't want to be pushed into the nagging wife role anymore. Use his money to make sure he's dressed properly. There is no excuse for a grown man to look scruffy at work. Not endearing, career-engangering.

Good luck.

lotsofcheese · 21/02/2015 08:17

OP, if there's just 2 of you, spending around 3 hours a day on housework seems extreme (especially if it doesn't include gardening).

For example, DP & I live in a 4-bedroom house with 2 young DC. I have a cleaner fortnightly for 3 hours. DP works long hours & isn't the best round the house understatement of the year But having a cleaner forces him to tidy up his stuff, as I won't do it.

Yes, we do have friction about domestic stuff, but I just delegate & while he has upped his game, I have compromised.

Something about your post about your friends coming for tea really concerns me, the bit where you ask what's for dinner & he walks out. He just dismisses you OP & does the passive-aggressive, going out & coming back with nothing. To show you who's boss. I really don't like that behaviour, it is very worrying for the future of your relationship.

This is not about housework; it's about lack of respect, passive-aggression, taking what's important to you & pissing all over it, constantly testing boundaries (smoking).

I bet you're tense all the time? Are you seeing the bigger picture here? It's not about the sodding housework. It's about him being a crap partner.

There was a brilliant post last night, 9.31pm, on passive aggression, please read it.

MonkeySeeMonkeyDooo · 21/02/2015 08:20

What on earth do you do that requires three hours housework a day? Including cooking I mean.

CoffeeBeanie · 21/02/2015 08:25

Picking up his shit?

CoffeeBeanie · 21/02/2015 08:29

Endangering

And the first sentence of my post doesn't make sense.

  • I need coffee
MelonBallersAreStrange · 21/02/2015 08:36

What do you need to decide whether to cut your losses or suck it up to make the babies?

Onecurrantbun · 21/02/2015 08:39

I do think that perhaps you are at the extreme end of the scale - we have 2 preschool DCs and I'm a sahm so 3 meals a day, plus snacks are eaten in the house, which is a 4 bed detached. I don't spend anything like 3 hours a day on housework, including laundry, cooking, admin etc. Sounds like he is at the complete opposite end of the scale, which is worrying. There may be little middle ground.

His attitude of walking away when challenged is childish and not the way to conduct an adult relationship. Whether it is done deliberately to control you, or in the way of a toddler stamping their feet he doesn't really care how it effects you, is by the by really. It's not acceptable.

You need to make it clear that you are thinking of leaving him. It needs to change. A previous poster warned that you'd look "weak" if you then stayed; I disagree. Whilst it is not the time for playing games, life is fluid and it's ok to change your mind, and he might surprise you. IMHO it's worth a shot and at least you'll know where you stand and whether you're important enough for him to change.

I don't think getting a cleaner will solve it to be honest. He needs to buck his ideas up, really.

DeliciousMonster · 21/02/2015 08:46

In one week [averaging and paraphrasing here]:
there are 168 hours
counting 8 of those asleep leaves 112
counting 40 of those at work leaves 72 that you are 'together'.

That is your 100%. If you are spending 3-4 hours each evening [the three mentioned plus all the stuff that you will do because he just forgot] doing things whilst he pretends to work, then that is 28 hours. That is 38% of your down time and 0% of his. So how can you say he is great 99% of the time? nearly 40% of your time is doing your wife work and him doing nothing.

Another point - why is he happy to do all the cooking in front of other people, but just not for you. You - the person who he is supposed to love?

Part of living together before marriage is to see if you are compatible. You aren't. Question is - is this worth it just to have kids? Which he will be a Disney parent too by all counts.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles · 21/02/2015 09:07

I don't think he wants children half as much as I do. In the sense that having kids seems like an appealing suggestion to him as an abstract concept, ie: he craves the love they would inspire, but I'm unsure how much the day-to-day reality of having them would appeal to him when it actually happens...

If you are putting up with the things now that are really starting to grate with the idea you can stand it because you and he will have a family, I think you are taking a big risk. I suspect he will feel his work is done regarding infants once you are pregnant and that you will cope and your parents will swap gardening passion for doting on a grandchild.

You and he have had over three years together so he knows what pushes your buttons. You might meet somewhere in the middle eventually. He might make a wonderful father but is he capable of simultaneously being a caring partner?

It's all very well for his ex housemates to tell you what a gem he is. They then toddle back to where they live each thinking thank God FedUp is the one enduring the mess and fag butts not me.

And however rich his interior life may be, day-to-day reality does have a tiresome habit of intruding. When you are not hosting guests but managing the household and a little bit cranky from a teething baby I promise you that you won't be in the mood for the little displays of whimsical eccentricity and passive aggression.

FirstOfficerDouglasRichardson · 21/02/2015 09:11

My DH is a bit like this in the sense he hates cleaning and has a very different opinion on home tidiness and cleaning than I do, but he's not disrespectful. We both work full time, we have a 4 year old. He needs to do his share, so he gets lists, I genuinely give him lists of jobs to do in the house if he's home and I'm out, or if I'm doing another household job like the food shop. He gets 'can you do the dishes please?', 'it's bin day!', 'can you Hoover downstairs while I'm out?' And so on. He takes ages doing said jobs (in comparison to me, but at least he's thorough), he grumbles, but he does them and I have learned not to care if it takes him 35 minutes to hoover what would take me 10. I've learned not to step in and take over and not get angry as he bashes dishes around, making lots of noise whilst washing. He knows he has to do his share because we are a family.

The previous posters who have said it gets worse when you have children, it does a little in the sense that I was less patient and would explode and get emotional more when I felt he wasn't doing enough. But I had DH trained enough before children that when we had one he knew what jobs he had to do and it mattered not one but if I was on maternity leave, I was still 'working', but the poster who mentioned the crumbs and buttery knife on the worktop, oh god yes I've been there, DH was lucky not to be around because I may well have stabbed him with it.

I know he's not going to change and I will spend the rest of our lives giving him jobs and lists, but he does respect me enough to make an effort and do the tasks I ask. In turn we function well enough as a family in a clean and tidy home.

Get this sorted now, or do not marry this man, it really is that simple.

FirstOfficerDouglasRichardson · 21/02/2015 09:11

God that was long! Sorry.

ThatBloodyWoman · 21/02/2015 09:16

Permission to speak frankly here?

1.I think Bogeyface speaks sense
2.We don't do 3 hours housework a week.Ok thats minus shopping,diy,cooking and gardening,but it is with 2 dc's,a dog and a cat.
Lowering standards is a lifeskill.Life is too short for too clean a house or squabbles over who does it.
3.You both work too many hours for any sort of work/home balance especially if dc's come into the equation...imo.

  1. 3 hours housework is a lot added to 10 hours + paid work.No wonder exhausted stresses exist! You need a cleaner or to cut working hours,and you need to lower your standards, or something will give finally and perhaps not only the relationship.
Joysmum · 21/02/2015 09:23

I guess the 3 hours depends on what you call housework and how your averages work out?

If I add in shopping, pets, gardening decorating and DIY its at least 3 hours a day on average over a year not including child related activities).

SkaterGrrrrl · 21/02/2015 09:24

Haven't rtft but would say:

  • He sounds like he has good qualities
  • Being the 'parent' and taking responsibility for domestic chores will drive you mad
  • Doing the cooking doesn't mean he is pulling is weight. Cooking us creative, relaxing and non repetitive. Cleaning is drudgery.
  • Nagging is an ugly word which men use to describe women reminding them of something they ought to be doing.
  • If you can afford it outsource cleaning and ironing to a cleaner and enjoy his good points.
Suzannewithaplan · 21/02/2015 09:25

?I'm wondering if the OP is overwhelmed by the volume of posts to her thread?
This issue clearly strikes a chord with so many of us!
(including me)
So many men still see women as inferior, secondary to men. Domestic work has low status, in their minds it naturally falls to the low status people (ie women) to do the low status work.

Mylifepart2 · 21/02/2015 09:40

www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
“One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.
Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:
•The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
•The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
•The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
•Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
•The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
•The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
•The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
•The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
•Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

Mylifepart2 · 21/02/2015 09:44

Dont be fooled that the swanning around farmers markets and cooking for entertaining or that special once a week meal constitutes a chore - it is his fun. Clearly he doesnt even do this job end to end...ie plan, shop, clear up -- you do all of this whilst he indulges himself and shows off,,,

Fedupwithmess · 21/02/2015 09:52

Morning everyone,

Suzanne Yes I have been utterly overwhelmed by the number of responses to my post. I thought I'd get around 10 responses at most!

For those of you saying 2-3 hrs housework a day sounds excessive, I do include shopping, diy, cooking in that...and of course picking up his mess!

I'm certainly not pernickety to the point where I would be on obsessive compulsive cleaners or anything like that - it's more keeping things in order that concerns me rather than having a floor so clean you could eat your dinner off it. We have a lot of possessions which we need to fit into a relatively small space (and the nature of his work means he brings a lot of "stuff" home with him every night) so everything has to have its place, otherwise we get in the situation where he's constantly saying "have you seen my so-and-so?"

Are my standards too exacting? I think that's entirely subjective - some people I know have far higher standards than me, some far lower.

If I don't respond to any more posts today I'm not ignoring the thread, it's because I have guests over.

OP posts: