just need to get this out (toxic mum) long

[sliceofsoup]

I usually keep my parents at arms length. We all go through the motions, family parties, weekly phone calls etc. But I don't involve them in my life as much as I used to, in fact hardly at all. All this has been the only way for me to cope with my DMs toxic behaviour and my fathers enabling of her.

But this has now crept up on me. I think I must have let my guard down a bit because it all seemed to be going OK.

I have been receiving the silent treatment from DM for the last two weeks. The reason why is too complicated to post here, but I basically asserted my role as DD1s mother in as gentle and as polite a way as possible. DM of course didn't like this, as she is Mother in Chief and how dare I go against her. So as I say, silent treatment.

They were invited round to ours a few days ago for DD1s birthday. PIL were also here. The first thing was that I had bought DD1 some new clothes for her birthday. DM had also bought clothes. When DD1 didn't immediately change into the new clothes from DM she made faces and huffed and puffed and flung the clothes at me. There was an atmosphere. This will all probably seem petty written down, but after years of the egg shells the atmospheres she creates make me feel physically sick. I am not allowed to buy my own child clothes. Or spend time with her if DM decides she wants her. I do not parent her right. Everything Dd1 does wrong is my fault, everything she does right happens organically, nothing to do with me.

She ignored me over dinner, or gave clipped one word answers. Her and DF both talked about how upset they were at the fact my brother has broke up with his girlfriend.

My brother is 26, working full time and still lives at home. He didn't bother to even send his niece (DD1) a birthday card, or reply to my message inviting him round. He is rude, selfish, owes them a lot of money, and treats them like crap. They let him away with it all. Of course they are upset he has broke up with her, she was a lovely person and was the only good thing in his life. Now hes off drinking all his money and they worry every time he doesn't come home.

I make them cakes and give presents at every birthday etc, he does nothing, yet all they can say at my dinner table relates to him and his life, all the while glossing over what an arsehole he is. If I ever dared "forget" a birthday I would immediately be pulled up on it. I have been pulled up for much less. This has been going on all my life.

She has even rearranged history in her head. Everything was my fault. When DB kicked one of our friends in the face, I was punished. Now she remembers it as I kicked the person in the face.

Anyway. The thing that hurts so much is that everyone (DH, PILS, my friends) can all see straight through her "public face" and they tell me as much. But I can't believe in my heart that it is her with the problem. I have been conditioned by her for so long that I am always trying to see what I did wrong or why its my fault. Logically I know the truth which is why I am able to write this all down, but I don't believe it inside.

I don't ever remember liking her. She was to be feared. But it was all emotional. Guilt trips and walking on eggshells. I have tried to go NC and I just couldn't keep it up. Now that's another stick to beat me with.

Sorry. This is really long. I don't even know what I want from writing this, I just needed to get it out. Thank you for reading.

Would going NC make you any unhappier than you are already?

I am sorry she makes you feel like this. You don't have to go nc if you really feel you can't but you do need to compartmentalise her again and if she is going nc with you to punish you then let her stew for a bit. Leave her with Golden Boy brother. You have said it yourself...everyone sees through her. She will no doubt try her toxic shit on your dd as she gets older so if you have to protect her by asserting your rights as mum then bloody good for you love.

You tried NC, you could always try again. It's probably a bit like giving up smoking, you rarely give up first time.

Going NC wouldn't work this time as we aren't moving again. If I went NC she would no doubt turn up somewhere inappropriate to "fix it" and appear to be the bigger person.

There is a lot of fucked up history that I won't go into. But she has done that before.

But yes, I need to shove her back into her compartment and let her get on with it on her own time.

Thank you for replying. Reading it back I worried that it sounded petty and childish. I feel childish for needing her approval. Keeping her at arms length had really calmed that need. But some things just creep in still. I am not strong enough.

I struugle with low self esteem. Its crippling actually, and its only getting worse as I get older.

Her behaviour will not help with your low self esteem. My mother lives 5 minutes away and I'm very minimal contact. You don't have to be miles apart to distance yourself from her.

It would be an idea for you (if you haven't already) to look up toxic family dynamics and 'the Golden Child' v 'the Scapegoat'. Which is are the roles I would say you have been cast by you parents.

Have a look at the stately homes thread, esp the first post because that will send you to many resources that will help you understand the dynamic more and set firmer boundaries. Daughter it narcist mothers is great.

NC is a big option but there are other alternative, which it appears you are doing, but only to a small degree. You could go along way to closing them more.

The biggest thing I help me was that I realised that there is a script. And the type if crap my mother was telling me was the same as other mother was telling her daughter in a different country years apart. Really helped me realise it wasn't me or anything I had done.

Sorry. You bro is the golden child you are the scape goat.

And your low self esteem could more than likely be placed at her feet.

She has my DD1 overnight once a month. It used to be every bloody week but I put my foot down and reduced it. With a month of silence from her of course.

This time DD1 had to miss one week but my reasons weren't good enough apparently.

So if I go NC then it will be DD1 that loses out. My DM stopped me seeing my GM at a young age and it was devastating for me. I cant put my child through that.

But when she is not "punishing" me with her silence she keeps in touch quite often. Mostly to moan about my DB and how awful he is and also how hard his life is in the same breath.

I try to minimise this but its hard. I usually just listen and offer platitudes. I have long since learnt that advice would never be taken even when asked for. If I dont answer I am rude.

Its so tiring.

Tell DM to come and see you instead.

My mum was lovely to me until I started to voice my opinion at 10/11.

That's when the toxicity really started.

If your dd is young, do not count on her being the lovely grandmother for ever.

Hey listen.

I've loads of experience in this regard. The thing is, you are not wrong and everyone knows it.

But you have a child in the form of your mother. You have a disappointment in accepting that in yourself, and have to then find a way of her finding out what you think.

It is ok that she knows that you think her behaviour is out of order. You don't have to discuss it with her. I would pull back from her and deal with the disappointment. It would think about the fact that she has to know sometime. And then the future has to change. It is alrightto limit contact and alright for her to realise what you're doing and why.

Was your DGM as toxic as your M?

Anyway, regarding visits, your own mother prevented you seeing DGM so this is not the same loss. Your daughter is losing someone who she probably won't miss that much. Deep down children sense what's going on. You might have to reduce contact slowly though but probably within a year you will all have moved on. Get DD involved in an activity that's social, find something that she loves or a group of people that you can care about and who will reciprocate.

I'm not one for advocating total NC so I would treat it as a once or twice a year arrangement with no phonecalls.

My mum was NC with her mother so I never met my grandmother.

My mum found out GM was dying and went to visit her, I was asked if I wanted to go, I didnt.

I didn't miss out. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with anyone that could be that hurtful to my mum.

I have no regrets, neither does she.

Your mother's mother might have been a great deal nicer than your mother.

I'm not at all sure your mother is good for your child. Given how she behaves to you, it's hard to believe she's any sort of good rolemodel because a good grandparent does not bully their daughter.

I know this is all tough. My narcissictic mother started to behave shockingly to the grandchildren as I removed myself as her scapegoat. Do be careful re your daughter. Your mother might be saying and doing all sorts of stuff that is actually upsetting your daughter. If she isnt now she might do so in the future.

I found the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website very useful (ignore all the commercial stuff). The Stately Homes thread on here is also great.

I totally understand the lack of self esteem issue. My self esteem has been severely undermined by my mother. The good news is that you can work on yourself and you can get back your self esteem. As I say to my kids you deserve to be treated with respect and kindness by everyone. If someone isnt doing that either get them out of your life or totally reduce their impact. You will notice the difference so much when you arent being undermined. Then I would encourage you to read read read and understand what was done to you. Then join a support group like Stately Homes work on your self and you can honestly turn your life around. I feel so good only now having folk in my life who are positive and supportive.

I did go no contact with my mother and sister. But you will work out for yourself how to take your life forward. Good luck!

DD will not be losing out if you go NC, she will be gaining!
she may not see that at present, but it will be far healthier for her to be away from your mother.

Read the Stately Homes thread.

Even if your mother treats your DD "well" it may well be like a Golden child like our brother, and you can see that that doesn't make the Golden child happier or healthy psychologically long term.

You can go NC. If she harasses you then you can take out an injunction. You know that DH and PIL etc. can see through her and will support you.

I wrote another reply last night, but I then lost it. So I will have to start again lol. Thank you for reading all of this.

I do know that I am the scapegoat, and I have read the Stately homes thread. I have been here nearly 3 years under various names. At first it was all very helpful. I only truly understood my mothers toxicity when I had my DD1. Then finding the threads on here was such a comfort. It validated my feelings. But now it just upsets me more. I can't read words on a screen that were written by so many other people that don't know my mum, and know that they are describing her so perfectly. As someone said, its a script.

But how do I confront the fact that my life is just a script, a formula of toxic behaviour. I am so bloody scared of becoming her, if I am part of a formula I can never change the pattern. Does that even make sense?

I used to be able to offer advice and support to others on here, like you are all doing now, but now I can't find the words. It just hurts too much.

My DGM was my mums MIL. And yes she was toxic, but not to me until later in life when I contacted her and tried to build a relationship. So my mother was right to go NC with her, but now why is my mum doing all the things to me that hurt her so much when DGM did them to her?

Regardless of all that though. I resented my mum hugely for taking my DGM away. I was too young to fully see it but I was used by my mum as a confidante. I knew all the reasons, I knew about all her pain, but I couldn't marry that with the DGM I knew and I didn't want to. I hated her, even though I can see now that it was the right thing. I still hate the way she handled it. She left it to me to tell my DB. That wasn't my job. My DGM was my retreat from her, and once that was gone, I was stranded.

DD1s dad (not DH) is a massive PITA but I have always said that DD1 needed to work him out for herself, with me as a safe haven to retreat to when necessary. And I am adopting the same method with DM. DD1 never knows of my hurt from either of them, I will never burden her. She didn't cope well the first time we were NC, and she is older now, it will affect her more.

I want to scream in her face. I want to smash up her house. I want to stand in front of them and tell them I was raped at 15 because of their actions. Not directly of course, but by the way they treated me I sneaked about and took risks. They pushed me to the behaviour that led to that. I was a child FGS. I want to see their face. I want to see her cry for me the way she cries for everyone else in this family who has problems. I know that its to make the problems about her, but I don't care. She wouldn't be crying for me. She would cry for herself.

But I won't do any of that. It gets me nowhere. DH always knew she was bad and he never doubted me. But he was dumbfounded on the two occasions that he has witnessed us arguing. How a grown woman can be so fucking self centered is beyond us both.

I am angry. I am seething underneath. I get on with my life, I have a good marriage, lovely kids, we do ok for ourselves, we live our lives and hurt no one. But I am invisible until I set a foot wrong. This is so long already. Gah.

I have reported this thread btw, as somehow my OP has disappeared and Justmuddlingalong has somehow become the OP.

Strange.

"I am so bloody scared of becoming her, if I am part of a formula I can never change the pattern. Does that even make sense?"

Many people have such fears but they are really unfounded. You know full well that their ill treatment was and is wrong and you would never act the same to your child so you have changed the dynamic here. The dysfunction that has gone down the family of origin's line all these years (and toxic dysfunction does filter down the generations) has stopped with you.

Your mother was and is a crap toxic parent to you. She says and does all the usual sorts of stuff such emotionally unhealthy people do. Such people like your mother and her hangers on do not change; they also never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

You do not have to keep getting on the merry go round; you can stop playing their game. You can have a small but significant boundary for a start here by no longer buying them cakes and presents.

She is also a terrible role model to your DD; the best thing you can do for your child going forward is to not keep exposing her to her toxic behaviours in any form. She will be harmed actively by such emotional manipulation at her nan's hands; look at what she has done and still does to you. She was a rubbish parent to you and she is doing similar damage to your child; your most precious resource. Your self esteem is unsurprisingly through the floor; you need to rebuild your life and without your mother in it.

Oh OP, I have boatloads of sympathy for you. I recognise so much of my own situation in your posts. I don't have children but I completely get what its like to have a domineering mother who must be kept happy at all costs, the walking on eggshells, the questioning what the hell you did wrong, the sulking, the silent treatment (so cruel, so abusive), the feeling physically sick, the guilt, the huge exhausting burden of it all. The younger brother who gets treated like royalty but behaves like an asshole. It wears you down and exhausts you right to your very bones. And the anger - your anger comes through so clearly in your posts and I hear it, I feel it. You have every right to your anger.

You said yourself, other people can see her for what she is. This is not your fault, none of it is your fault. This is not something you can fix. Its not a game that you can win. I'm afraid the only way through this is to refuse to play. Detaching hurts, it really fucking hurts and it can be terrifying at first. For me, its been the only way to sanity.

You don't need someone like this in your life. It doesn't matter that she's your mother - she doesn't get a free pass to treat you this way. And your daughter does not need someone like this in her life. Its horribly sad that you don't get to have the mum you deserve, and that your DD doesn't get to have a lovely granny, but honestly, that's the way it is. It is really hard, and really brutal, and not something anyone can just 'get over', but that's the way it is.

I cannot recommend professional help enough. This is dark, murky, desperately sad stuff and having someone who knows what they are doing to guide you through the process is invaluable. I see a psychotherapist weekly and have done for some time and I can't recommend it enough. Its the most painful thing I've ever done but also by far the most rewarding. Good luck to you OP, take care of yourself

One more thing - lots of people have mentioned the damage that keeping people like your mother around can do to your self esteem. Please do not underestimate this. You know that your sense of self has already taken a massive hit by having a mother like her, who expects you to put her needs first at all times, and treats you like you're invisible unless you're useful to her. Keeping someone like this around does your self esteem and self respect no favours whatsoever. The only way to start healing is to have her much less involved in your life.

With relationships, if you change the balance, the other person tries to put you back where you were and maintain the status quo. She is fighting you back, so you must be getting somewhere. Step back and see where you are going. If it is a step, even the tiniest one, towards where you want to be, then this is a postive thing.

If your DB is causing anxiety, then your role, in her mind is to be the 'good one' and not cause anxiety, and to conform to the narrative she has of you in her head. You can only be yourself, so this will cause friction, because it is not possible to be this fictitious person. She is dealing with it by blaming you.

I read lots of parenting books (Secrets of Happy Children is my favourite) and worked out how I wanted to relate to my children, not just now but when they are adults (which they are now), talked to my DH about it, talked to the children about things, and the PIL.

I found in times of stress, it is easy to revert back to what was done to you, but if you learn as much as you can, you have more tools at your disposal and as long as you think things through, you can find the best answer to what you want to do without resorting to a knee-jerk response. This way, you don't have to repeat any mistakes.

I hear what you are all saying and I do agree. I just know how hard being NC was the first time, and I don't want to do it again, then cave, and be giving them another stick to beat me with. You know? Its not worth it.

I think that in the last while I have reached a point where I can admit I do need professional help. I had told myself for so long I have enough self awareness and insight to help myself. But I am drowning in this now. I can correlate my lack of career directly to this. I have one year left before our youngest goes to school. One year and then I will have to get a job. It terrifies me. I was an intelligent person and I didn't make the most of myself. Something I will always regret. I self sabotage too.

The issue with getting therapy is that I don't feel comfortable talking about this out loud. I do talk to DH but he only hears the tip of the iceberg. I don't mean I couldn't talk to a counsellor. I am sure I could to the right one. But its telling my GP. I never see the same one, and when I was depressed a year ago, I got a locum, who was so uninterested and patronizing, I stopped taking the anti d's so that I wouldn't have to go back to him to get the next prescription. Where would I even start too. I have this fear, I think, of a patronizing smile and being told that everyone has struggles and I should just suck it up.