just need to get this out (toxic mum) long

[sliceofsoup]

I usually keep my parents at arms length. We all go through the motions, family parties, weekly phone calls etc. But I don't involve them in my life as much as I used to, in fact hardly at all. All this has been the only way for me to cope with my DMs toxic behaviour and my fathers enabling of her.

But this has now crept up on me. I think I must have let my guard down a bit because it all seemed to be going OK.

I have been receiving the silent treatment from DM for the last two weeks. The reason why is too complicated to post here, but I basically asserted my role as DD1s mother in as gentle and as polite a way as possible. DM of course didn't like this, as she is Mother in Chief and how dare I go against her. So as I say, silent treatment.

They were invited round to ours a few days ago for DD1s birthday. PIL were also here. The first thing was that I had bought DD1 some new clothes for her birthday. DM had also bought clothes. When DD1 didn't immediately change into the new clothes from DM she made faces and huffed and puffed and flung the clothes at me. There was an atmosphere. This will all probably seem petty written down, but after years of the egg shells the atmospheres she creates make me feel physically sick. I am not allowed to buy my own child clothes. Or spend time with her if DM decides she wants her. I do not parent her right. Everything Dd1 does wrong is my fault, everything she does right happens organically, nothing to do with me.

She ignored me over dinner, or gave clipped one word answers. Her and DF both talked about how upset they were at the fact my brother has broke up with his girlfriend.

My brother is 26, working full time and still lives at home. He didn't bother to even send his niece (DD1) a birthday card, or reply to my message inviting him round. He is rude, selfish, owes them a lot of money, and treats them like crap. They let him away with it all. Of course they are upset he has broke up with her, she was a lovely person and was the only good thing in his life. Now hes off drinking all his money and they worry every time he doesn't come home.

I make them cakes and give presents at every birthday etc, he does nothing, yet all they can say at my dinner table relates to him and his life, all the while glossing over what an arsehole he is. If I ever dared "forget" a birthday I would immediately be pulled up on it. I have been pulled up for much less. This has been going on all my life.

She has even rearranged history in her head. Everything was my fault. When DB kicked one of our friends in the face, I was punished. Now she remembers it as I kicked the person in the face.

Anyway. The thing that hurts so much is that everyone (DH, PILS, my friends) can all see straight through her "public face" and they tell me as much. But I can't believe in my heart that it is her with the problem. I have been conditioned by her for so long that I am always trying to see what I did wrong or why its my fault. Logically I know the truth which is why I am able to write this all down, but I don't believe it inside.

I don't ever remember liking her. She was to be feared. But it was all emotional. Guilt trips and walking on eggshells. I have tried to go NC and I just couldn't keep it up. Now that's another stick to beat me with.

Sorry. This is really long. I don't even know what I want from writing this, I just needed to get it out. Thank you for reading.

Hi slice, glad your still with us.
Sound like they are all living in their own little soap opera, probably best to tune them out..
Have you made any steps towards seeking some professional help yet, ? I know you felt knocked back last time but there are lots of caring people out there..around here too, who really would like to help you rescue yourself.
You need to look after you first, and you currently seem to be making lots of decisions based on trying to find the best line between lots of peoples needs, none of them yours. Its really difficult to properly get that helping yourself first can be the better option for those people too.
I guess its a bit like on an aeroplane, you put on your own emergency breathing mask first, then help those around you. If you are dependent on others for your self esteem then you will very much be suffering from difficulty making decisions, as you will be second guessing others needs in order to feel approved of, and will be second guessing yourself a lot, throw in cognitive dissonance and things become overwhelming really quickly.

I do feel overwhelmed. I feel like my brain has shut down so I can continue to function on a basic level. I felt alive for the first time last year, I had a major event to plan and it was wonderful. I was alert and creative and I really excelled. After that, I know I have more in me, but the self doubt and self sabotage is crippling.

I do need to get help. I looked up counselors and there are loads near me. Its just finding the money now really. I don't think that the NHS is a good fit for this tbh. I think its going to take more than 6 sessions.

I have a very bad mother. I had NLP privately. It helped tremendously when I was crippled with self doubt and self sabotage. I noticed major improvements from the first session. I highly recommend it. The therapist didn't need me to talk aloud about all the things that had happened, which made it easier for me to engage initially. If you need to change things about your life quickly I would avoid talking therapies in the first instance (maybe later).

Hi Melon. Sorry about your mother, but I am glad to hear that therapy helped you. I haven't heard of NLP before, going to google. What does it involve?

Are you NC with your mother now? I hope you don't mind me asking.

She's getting straight in there with DBs girlfriend as she is a potentially massive threat to her power and control. Becoming friends on facebook means she can see all her exposed weaknesses. Poor girl.

Invite the new couple over to dinner and watch her fume! Out of genuine reasons of course, you have a right to bond with your brother.

My brother wouldn't come. He has heard her side of the story for a decade.

Time to put the record straight then?

Perhaps invite them with a "Fresh start, would be nice to get to know your new partner?"

My DM was the scapegoat and my aunty was the golden child whilst my GM was the narcissist mother. In that case, the golden child was very enthusiastic about joining in the bullying, abuse, cold shoulder, gossiping etc.

Every time my mum tried to bond with my aunty, sooner or later it it thrown back in her face. Sometimes because GM would fabricate tales of poor treatment by DM to stir things up as she sensed that there might be a bond forming she wasn't able to control, sometimes because aunty was so used to being able to treat people (especially DM) like crap with no consequences that she couldn't sustain a proper relationship, sometimes because the sibling rivalry that GM had stoked so much during childhood reared it's head. So I would tread carefully in trying to bond with DB if it's not already an established thing. It's just getting pulled further into the web of lies, deceit and abuse IME.

I did have a relationship with a guy when I was younger, and the siblings there had avoided being played off one another, well largely. It was dad was the narcissist though. Four kids, two girls, two boys. The oldest was a girl, and she did go along with the parental control. The other three kind of banded together through thick and thin. My exDP was the next oldest, a boy, was kind of the ring leader, and took a lot of the flak when he was younger, fought the battles that made a lot possible for the younger two, and they recognised that. In the family it was described as "he became difficult when he was 4". There was also a year long period when he was about six and the younger two where 4 and 2, when the kids and the mum lived abroad, away from the dad for various family/financial reasons, and I think they got a chance to bond then. He definitely looked up to his mum and respected her more than his dad, and his younger siblings looked up to him not his dad.

It wasn't exactly the most harmonious of families, but they did achieve a sort of balance where normal love became possible, especially as adults. But it was along, long road, and they had started banding together as kids. In teenage/study years the youngest three made a big thing of going to university in the same town, sticking together through that, covering for one another with parents. That kind of set the scene and in adulthood it settled down a bit. But they were all united together.

He doesn't even acknowledge his nieces birthdays, or come to family events most of the time. My house is the last place he would want to go to.

The last time I went NC, when I got in touch again (I was hormonal and emotional as I had just given birth to DD2) I heard all about how upset HE was that he hadn't seen us for 6 months, therefor he wasn't going to speak to me again.

I haven't seen him since I took him a card and present on his birthday 4 months ago. If I hadn't just gone round I wouldn't have been invited and the last time I saw him before that was on my wedding day last summer!!!

Xposts Moustache. Yes, you make good points.

When we were young my DM pushed us together, we weren't allowed to fight. I had to look after my little brother. In her mind she was creating a bond so we would get on.

In actual fact she was just using me to protect her relationship with him. If we did something naughty it was automatically my fault because I was older so I should know better. I was punished for things he did because I didn't stop him. I think I already wrote about the face kicking incident, that time I was punished for not being loyal to my brother, and he didn't even get told off for violence against a girl ffs (not that against a boy would have benn any better).

I remember kicking off in a shop one day because he always picked the same chocolate bar as me. It sounds silly now, but I was only maybe 6 or 7 and I hated it. I wanted to be my own person and instead I had a tag a long. I felt suffocated even then. Of course my parents just laughed and did nothing.

When we were in school he had to sit at my dinner table (I was two years ahead of him) because someone in his class told him the spaghetti was worms and the rice was maggots. So the solution was to encroach on my life.

Despite all that, we were close from about the age of 10 until I left home at 17. He often stood up for me to them. It was always 2 against 1 and he told me he hated that so he would step in. They never listened to him though.

When I left home he suddenly forgot all that though, and they became 3 against me. I don't blame him. He had to do whatever he could to survive. I can't imagine it was a very pleasant household in the aftermath of me leaving. It wasn't a civilized departure at all, and for a few weeks they actually didn't know where I was.

This is too long now so I shall stop here. But no, there is no point trying to forge a relationship there.

I would take DBs words with a pinch of salt. Men are often useless at birthdays etc and he's been caught up in the web your mother has spun.

You had a strong bond before, it must be there still, just overpowered a bit by DM. Try and play the long game, invite them but expect them not to come and don't get hurt if they do.

*don't get hurt if they DON'T.

Sorry to hear those things OP. My experience as the second generation in a similar situation is, sadly, that nothing gets better by trying to beat someone at their own game. All that happens is you set yourself up for failure, hurt and disappointment and to onlookers, it seems like you are each as bad as the other. I really wish it wasn't like that. But you only get one life, and better to live your own life well than get caught up in knots tied by others. Similarly, not much is really achieved by trying to take the high road and think of others even when they are doing nothing at all to consider you.

If it is any help, when I did cut the ties once and for all, my life got better very rapidly and continues on an upward swing. Not that there have been no tough moments or times when I have missed people, but I was just so much better able to concentrate on the things that mattered to me. Life just got a lot simpler and more straightforward, practically and emotionally and things started to flow.

She called in today. With my DF.

She was here for about 20 minutes, and in that time she talked solely about herself. She didn't ask about me, or the DCs. My DF spoke to DH and DD1, asked them about themselves etc, and DM just talked over him about herself.

DH has said tonight that she is the most self centered person he has ever known and that he is so angry at the "huffing like a toddler" (his words) that she does. I feel so disconnected to be honest. Its like its all going on in a different room and I know its not right, but I can't even get worked up about it.

Tonight I have decided to take the step and privately fund counselling. We could afford for me to go to a session once a fortnight, does that seem ok? I will talk to DH about it in the morning but I know he won't object.

How do I choose a counsellor? I know I would be more comfortable speaking to a woman, so that narrows it down a bit, but there are quite a few near me. How do I choose?

An important aspect of this decision, I feel, is that today nothing was bothering me. I made the decision for me, and not in reaction to my DMs behaviour. I don't think I could ever have decided otherwise. Maybe this doesn't even make sense. Its late and I am just blathering on.

So yeah, how do I choose?

I think that's a good move OP. I think you can contact BACP who have lists of them, I would simply go by their specialism and what they say on their blurb and then try them out. They might give a discount for a 'trial'.

It's extremely hard to psychologically separate yourself enough to see your mother in perspective. Your personality has been shaped by them to such an extent that when you step back you will need help to get find the real you. It sounds as though you have some detaching to do which is a big ask, in my view akin to bereavement, and will demand the support of a counsellor.

I keep thinking about when she dies. How I will feel. I don't wish she was dead, I don't mean that, I just mean that when someone loses a parent they are devastated, but will I just regret not trying harder? If I have counselling and I detach and go to very limited contact, will I regret that? Will her death become an eternal stick to beat myself with?

DH has agreed that I need counselling, and has said to go for it, but money is tight this month due to some unexpected bills, so hopefully in a few weeks I should be able to start. I have a few counsellors profiles bookmarked already.

I think this will help with bereavement too as it will enable you to have a relationship with her that you can cope with now. Ideally you will get an understanding of why you feel the way you do when she behaves in a certain way and ideally that will help reduce the bad feelings you get as you will go 'oh it's that feeling again, it's just because she's doing x y z, no wonder I feel like that'.

This will ideally lead you on to think 'why would anyone want anyone else to feel like that?' and then hopefully 'she must be flippin crazy'! Once you get to that stage you might eventually get to the 'ah bless' stage where you see her as a silly old woman with her own issues, hell you might even be able to laugh at her stupidity and most importantly of all you will be able to learn what a kind and healthy maternal relationship is.

The reason I bang on about your brother is that it was when I finally had an open conversation with him that we both suddenly realised that our parents had very warped ideas about our lives that they were feeding their interpretation to us separately and that caused a lot of division. Now everything they say is taken with a massive pinch of salt and a 'pff' attitude. But it's not something you can really do anything about right now, it would have to just happen when he's ready to see it.

And remember you don't have to forgive her. Forgiveness is over-rated, even as a self-preservation. If someone behaves badly they should only be forgiven if they were forced into it imo. If they're just downright persistently nasty then it would make you feel worse to forgive them.

Unfortunately a lot of advice is to reduce contact but I think for an errant parent to be faced with a child that refuses to be hurt any more is a powerful thing and can turn the relationship any which way. Forgiveness or cutting contact doesn't move things forward - although I know that many would disagree with that theory that's just my view.

Abusers tend to only continue abusing when they know it has an effect, that they still have control. Forgiveness and cutting contact can be misinterpreted by an abuser as still having that control and will undoubtedly be used as evidence that you 'don't care' to your brother.

DH is very very angry at her at the minute. He feels like she just barged in on Friday, talked about herself and then fucked off when it suited her. And the fact that I haven't heard from her since is pissing him off more.

He is right. Thats exactly what she did do, but I can't get wound up about it at all. So I understand what you mean in your second paragraph. I don't always have this reaction though, which is why I do need the counselling.

I love my brother, I actually like him too, we have lots in common and if he came round we could chat and laugh for hours. I think if I read the OP of this thread back I would be shocked at how much I disliked him then. But since this thread I am seeing it differently. He probably keeps his distance from me because he is only hearing their warped view. I am angry at the life he is leading, but I blame them more than him. I grew up with a very strong lack of hope. I didn't believe I would ever achieve going to university, so I didn't bother trying my best at school. I didn't believe I would ever be able to afford to get a mortgage, so I fucked my credit rating up in my late teens. I think he suffers the same. He doesn't believe he can move out and be independent, so he pisses his money up the wall instead of saving for a deposit. Its sad really, we are both very intelligent and capable, but they have trodden us down to a point where we are wasting our potential.

1. The effect on your DH - is exactly what your mother wanted. She must know how he feels so she's hoping he will lost the plot or you will intervene or something. She wants his attention now as she's not getting response from you. Bless him for sticking up for you though, good man.

1. Messing up your credit rating and being crap with money is a way of being dependent on others, perhaps that's what they engendered in you, a feeling of helplessness. When you're taught to dance to someone else's tune through your childhood it can be terrifying to take control. Perhaps. It's called self sabotage.

Ha yes. Good old self sabotage. It and my self esteem are my main motivations for seeking therapy, as no matter what turns the relationship with my DM takes, I am stuck with them and they are affecting me daily.

My DH doesn't stick up for me in the sense that he says anything to her. He would, but I won't let him, as it would be pointless. But just knowing he is on my side, and that he would back me up if it came to it, is enough. Also, hearing someone tell me she is crazy that actually knows her and is witness to the situation in person, is invaluable to me. It helps me see that this isn't just in my head.

sliceofsoup

with your counsellor, see if you click with them. If not, it's fine to go and see someone else. It's very important to click. I personally think that it's good if now and then they gently challenge you too, but that doesn't suit everyone.

Mothers Who Can't Love by Susan Forward is very well worth a read.

will I just regret not trying harder? Thing is, she is the most self centred person in the world. It takes two to have a relationship. The only way you can improve this relationship is by listening to her all the time. Give up all expectatoin of a two-way conversation. Just be her sounding post and admirer.

Doesn't sound like a real relationship? It's not. But if you are with someone that self centred, it's very, very hard to have a real relationship :(

Can I ask how you know if you click? I don't have very good social skills, and I don't have a clue what a counsellor patient relationship should be like.