just need to get this out (toxic mum) long

[sliceofsoup]

I usually keep my parents at arms length. We all go through the motions, family parties, weekly phone calls etc. But I don't involve them in my life as much as I used to, in fact hardly at all. All this has been the only way for me to cope with my DMs toxic behaviour and my fathers enabling of her.

But this has now crept up on me. I think I must have let my guard down a bit because it all seemed to be going OK.

I have been receiving the silent treatment from DM for the last two weeks. The reason why is too complicated to post here, but I basically asserted my role as DD1s mother in as gentle and as polite a way as possible. DM of course didn't like this, as she is Mother in Chief and how dare I go against her. So as I say, silent treatment.

They were invited round to ours a few days ago for DD1s birthday. PIL were also here. The first thing was that I had bought DD1 some new clothes for her birthday. DM had also bought clothes. When DD1 didn't immediately change into the new clothes from DM she made faces and huffed and puffed and flung the clothes at me. There was an atmosphere. This will all probably seem petty written down, but after years of the egg shells the atmospheres she creates make me feel physically sick. I am not allowed to buy my own child clothes. Or spend time with her if DM decides she wants her. I do not parent her right. Everything Dd1 does wrong is my fault, everything she does right happens organically, nothing to do with me.

She ignored me over dinner, or gave clipped one word answers. Her and DF both talked about how upset they were at the fact my brother has broke up with his girlfriend.

My brother is 26, working full time and still lives at home. He didn't bother to even send his niece (DD1) a birthday card, or reply to my message inviting him round. He is rude, selfish, owes them a lot of money, and treats them like crap. They let him away with it all. Of course they are upset he has broke up with her, she was a lovely person and was the only good thing in his life. Now hes off drinking all his money and they worry every time he doesn't come home.

I make them cakes and give presents at every birthday etc, he does nothing, yet all they can say at my dinner table relates to him and his life, all the while glossing over what an arsehole he is. If I ever dared "forget" a birthday I would immediately be pulled up on it. I have been pulled up for much less. This has been going on all my life.

She has even rearranged history in her head. Everything was my fault. When DB kicked one of our friends in the face, I was punished. Now she remembers it as I kicked the person in the face.

Anyway. The thing that hurts so much is that everyone (DH, PILS, my friends) can all see straight through her "public face" and they tell me as much. But I can't believe in my heart that it is her with the problem. I have been conditioned by her for so long that I am always trying to see what I did wrong or why its my fault. Logically I know the truth which is why I am able to write this all down, but I don't believe it inside.

I don't ever remember liking her. She was to be feared. But it was all emotional. Guilt trips and walking on eggshells. I have tried to go NC and I just couldn't keep it up. Now that's another stick to beat me with.

Sorry. This is really long. I don't even know what I want from writing this, I just needed to get it out. Thank you for reading.

DH and I are in everything together, except each others families. There are toxic dynamics in both. So many times I have wanted to march round to his parents and tell them what for, but he has begged me not to. The week before our wedding I sat crying into a glass of vodka every night instead of saying what needed said because he begged me not to rock the boat. He would be punished further for my actions.

And it works exactly the same the other way. DH confronting her would be twisted round to paint him in a bad light and it would be used against me. Its just easier if I deal with her myself.

'I feel sorry for her and dislike her in the same amount.'

Same here, with both my parents! And in my case, I honestly don't think they know how to be caring, empathetic, see things from someone else's POV. I just don't think its there. But I've learned that it doesn't mean I have to be nice to them and make allowances for their crap behaviour. Nor should you with your mum.

I would very much second the suggestion of just stopping the overnights for DD. Lovely idea to replace them with something nice that you do together.

And what ScrambledSmegs said. I really think you don't see how much you need to protect your DD here, how vulnerable she is, and I think that's a lot to do with the way you just don't "get" protectiveness somehow because it's just never featured in your life.

Except when you're being protective of your M, of course. That's another part of the script, I'm afraid - we feel sorry for them in a way they NEVER feel sorry for us! We feel the urge to protect them in a way they never felt towards us. All the wrong way round. Completely.

I see. It would seem that you and your DH are both in the same situation with your respective families, and that is paralysing you both from making any positive changes. If one of you had a clear head on the issue, you would see that begging the other not to " rock the boat" just doesn't make sense. The "boat" is a shitty mess, if you rock it, there is a chance you will be free of it.

My mum believes she is too empathetic and too generous and too worried about other people. When in reality its the opposite.

I went NC with my DGM and that whole branch of my family specifically to protect DD. I am not incapable of protecting her. But as I say, I need to tread a fine line because the thing I fear most of all is DD resenting me.

That's so hard, both of you coming from such toxic families. So if you did cut yours out, you wouldn't be able to compensate with his family. I can understand why it would be very hard to face that.

We are pretty short changed on family too and I have grieved about it a lot over the years. Plus, we were only able to have the one child, so DS hasn't even got a sibling, to make the family pool that bit wider!

But we have a wonderful, intimate bond, and we actually make it work for us now, and while it's harder at special times of the year like birthdays and Christmas, we are so happy together as a family in general. And I know we wouldn't have this peace if I were in touch with my family.

I think you need to work out what you're projecting onto the situation with DD and your M from your own childhood, and what's really going on now.

It would help to separate the two.

You sound vastly different from your own M, and I'm sure you are a vastly better mother too. Your DD is also a different child from you, growing up in different circumstances. It's not necessarily going to be the same for her as it was for you, in fact I would be very surprised if it were.

But we have made positive changes. I know it doesn't sound like it from my posts because I am venting about the specifics. But day to day we see none of them. DD has gone from every week sleepover to once a month, that was a major thing, and we only see PIL now and again, even though they live very close.

DH and I have been through two illegal evictions, homelessness, unemployment, having 50p to our name. All in the last three years. We clawed our way out of the shit ourselves, with help from no one. We are strong and we got married last year. And we are proud of ourselves for it. We live our lives, we bring up our children and we try to get on with it. Most of the time our parents are just background noise.

My low self esteem does affect our daily lives though, so thats a reminder.

My parents think they are saintly creatures too, who are much put upon. I don't know whether to split my sides laughing or tear my hear out!

You sound so very different to your mother OP. You have a great level of self awareness and insight, neither of which she does.

Let's examine the situation between your gm and your gm. That isnt the same as the straight line of mother to daughter to grandaughter you are dealing with. That was adult women battling it out as in-laws which is a bit different than this battle. This one is the newest development in the running abuse of you.

The thing is, you really only know your dm's side of the story between her and your gm. Knowing your dm tells stories that suit her preferred way of seeing the situation regardless of the truth means you can't really know the truth of the situation between her and your gm. Even your df couldn't tell you the truth, after all this time of buying your dm's side of things.

Your gm may have been equally bad, your df might have married a girl just like mum. It happens. Selfish narcissistic types avoid having competition in their patch, so the NC would have been joint, but your gm lost her son and grandchildren, so your dm won!

Or, your gm may have only been bad in your dm's eyes because she wouldn't tolerate your dm's sh*t and was hoping to get her son/grandchildren out. Selfish narcissists are good at eliminating those who interfere and can't be manipulated, so if this was the case, your dm won!

Either way, your gm has had years to become bitter, no matter what she was like before. Years to assume you would be just like your mother, causing her to be defensively hostile toward you. Add in that your dm has spent years telling you how awful GM was, which could make it very easy to interpret any reaction other than a fairy-tale greeting of joy as being as awful as you expected. Your dm won this round too!

Game over. You missing out on what might/might not have been good relationship with your gm cannot be a point in favour your dm regarding contact with your daughter. This is a new game. You know your mother cheats, and is a very cruel player. Quit the game.

Ah no. You see the GM DM relationship was poisoned by my toxic aunt. The most odious, and repulsive woman you would ever have the misfortune of meeting. My DGM was her enabler you see. My DGM is actually a really lovely person, truly. Her crime is enabling her daughter.

And I know that my mum wasn't making any of that up, because when I was in contact again I watched it all happen to my DGMs other son and his family, right before my eyes. It was so bad that I had to walk away from my DGM who I love with all my heart, because she just could not see it.

I could fill a bookshelf if I wrote about my family. Honestly. Its a massive pile of toxic waste.

Blimey what a mess OP! And ALL of it completely beyond your control.

Siblings are often set against each other in these families, the parents can't bear to see them getting on as it means they might be excluded or play second fiddle. It's a way of controlling relationships, nasty stuff. As you get older and start a family of your own you become a double threat. Suddenly you and your children are the focus and your parent/s are no longer centre of the universe. You sound like a loyal strong couple and you have a lot going for you - it's likely that the older generation see you both as a threat to their standing within the family.

It might help to try to look at the whole family dynamic including extended family in perspective. You know those circles of friends things that was all the rage a while ago? Perhaps you can do that with your family and move some people into your inner circle and others out.

The other thing I sometimes suggest is to do a 'test'. Say something like 'I'm going out for a meal with x sibling and his/her children and watch to see the reaction. A good parent would be happy for you and not expect to be invited, might be disappointed if not invited but understand that you can have a life without them.

Good heavens, this all sounds very nasty.

If I were you, I wouldn't want my daughter engaging on any level with the people. I know you don't want to rock the boat, but seriously, this is just awful.

I don't speak to my DGM or any of them any more. Maybe because their "abuse" was so obvious, so out there in the open, I see my DMs abuse of me as somehow not as bad, therefore more excusable. I will have to think about that aspect of it.

The antics I could tell you about, you would all look like this but I have accepted that and don't feel the need to rehash it all. But it was very very bad.

In terms of circles, DH, me and the DDs are the only ones in the inner circle lol. My DM stays in contact with me when it serves her need for a confidante, and I am thrown to the side when a better one comes along. But I have been dealing with that. I am not bothered, I would rather she bent someone elses ear.

Its when she blames me for things I didn't do and rewrites history that I crack. I can't stand injustice.

When children get to about 8/9, they start rearranging their friendship groups and fall out with each other, make new friends. There was a BBC2 programme about it a few years ago - the secret life of Y3.

I would say that most children have a very strong sense of right and wrong. If you let her talk to you about these things and what her friends are doing and listen to her, she will build up her own sense of who is doing what. I spent a lot of time with my grandmother, listening to her family stories and doing things with her. She had a bad relationship with my parents, and fell out with her brother and son. She wasn't a bad person, but her expectations of how other members of the family should behave were wrong, and the way she dealt with it was wrong. I learned a lot I did have plenty of space from her though.

soup,

Maybe because their "abuse" was so obvious, so out there in the open, I see my DMs abuse of me as somehow not as bad, therefore more excusable.

Yes, I think this is probably what you have done. I fell into the same trap with my M. My F sexually abused me; my M did not, therefore whatever else she does, all the emotional manipulation and the verbal put-downs, must be okay.

(She has also trotted out the "Oh you're so sensitive" line whenever challenged, or as a last resort she will burst into tears and cry "I'm a terrible mooooothhhherrrrr!" One day I hope to feel able to respond "Yes, you are".)

It sounds to me like you are still very much stuck in the FOG and you have a need to believe that she will be a good GM. Honestly, this seems unlikely. Where is the evidence? What changes has she made in her life and behaviour? It doesn't sound like she has changed at all since your childhood, and at the very least your DD is absorbing the lesson that we HAVE to spend time with people who make us miserable. (Because the put-downs and sulks may go over her head at present (although don't count on it) but your upset reactions afterwards surely do not.)

I would definitely put a stop to the overnights immediately. I would never want to leave a child with someone who you know treats other people as things to be used, then cast aside.

i'm sorry she is such a shit to you
please stop the unsupervised contact with your dd
sounds like she would try and turn your dd against you if she gets the chance
don't give her that chance

This might already have been said but i don't understand this logic (i see it a fair bit on these style of threads)

"my mother is a shit, i really don't want anything to do with her, but i want her in my child's life"

why do you want a shit having private access to your child, do you want them doing the same to your child as they did to you

My DM stays in contact with me when it serves her need for a confidante, and I am thrown to the side when a better one comes along.

So bypass her and deal with the others directly.

I don't want her in my childs life. Which is why I have already reduced contact. But to remove her now will upset my child.

I will say it again, I am balancing on a fine line between the two. Its very easy to make it black and white on a forum. But this is my life. My past. All my memories, emotions and feelings. This is the world I occupy. Its not as easy as NC. I tried that already, for all the reasons you have all said. It was harder than being in contact. Please stop insinuating that I have no regard for my childrens feelings. I do. Right now they are ok. I am on top of it.

This thread was a place for me to talk about me and how I feel. A place to vent. My childhood and teenage years were all about her. Mydaily life is all about the DCs. I need something for me. I appreciate the advice and that you have all listened, but I do not want to be called in to action.

Re your comment:-
"I don't want her in my childs life. Which is why I have already reduced contact. But to remove her now will upset my child".

You are the parent. You get to make these decisions without apology or excessive justification. You can assure your child that you are making a wise and loving decision for them as well as yourself. This is not a decision that the child gets to make. Yes, children usually love their grandparents. Children are often quite indiscriminate in their love which is why they need parents to guide them. Not every person is safe to have around and this is a good time to teach that important life lesson. The more matter-of-fact you are, the more matter-of-fact your children will be. When we act hysterical, they will usually reflect our hysteria. If you act anxious, they will act anxious. If you appear unsure, they will push. Model the reaction and attitude you want your children to adopt.

You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Kidlet doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Attila speaks great sense, as always. You can make this decision OP. Your mother is hell on wheels for you to deal with as an adult but so much more dangerous for a young child to have to deal with

I am sorry if you feel we are focusing on your child and not you. The problem is you are talking to a bunch on people who have been that child. A child just like you.

As people who had gone further down the path, our worry and concern for your dd rise up. We know how damaged your dd can be. We are as damaged as you are. We know the dynamic as we have seen it within our own families. (some of the things my nephew was coming out with at the age of 5 indicated that she was starting on him)

Having seen it and lived it, we automatically want to stand up for the child in a way that no one wanted to stand up for us and as no one wanted to stand up for you. It was hard as an adult to see loved and trust friends and family all understand how bad my mother was but none of them said anything. How much easier life would have been to me as a 14 year old girl if someone had just said 'you know what, sometime mothers aren't always right' some of the pain might have been lessened.

So while you think you have it under control, we are worried that you are still in the FOG and are confusing your reaction to going NC with your gm (an episode that was probably handled very poorly by a women with no empathy to see,or care, how her actions would affect her 10year old daughter. I bet there was very little discussion or any love shown to you at the time) with how your daughter will deal with it. (6 years old, with a mother she trusts, who is sympathetic to her feelings and will shower her with love)

Remember you are a very different mother to her.

So you see our instinct is to protect the child in a way no one protected us.

I think most of us are further along the path then you. My husband (and my sisters in law) protect us from our mother. They are a barrier and both my sil have called my mothers bad behaviour to her face. My dh came a little late as I had already established firm boundaries. But he is still my barrier. They are family and it is what family do. But you and your husband would prefer to take the abuse on the head rather then allow the other to protect.

We also see that this 'frail women teetering on the edge' is most likely an act put on by a woman who has learnt that if she starts to clutch her chest and puts on the tears, people will back away and she is no longer held responsible for her actions. The sudden ill health and hospital visits unfortunately is part of that script. It is how they keep control.

I am sorry if you are feeling a little unsupported. But I think we all want protect as no one protected us.

Btw. This doesn't mean we don't understand what you personally are going through. We have all been there in the FOG. we understand the struggle to understand, the inability to understand why other people actually want to spend time with their parents, The anger, the jealously of people who have nice parents, the crippling self doubt.

We know.

If you knew then you wouldn't turn my one place that I can have for me, into being about you, and DD, and DM.

I needed to vent. Now I just feel patronized and insulted. So yeah. Thanks.

I think I will just leave this thread now. Thanks for the supportive comments.