just need to get this out (toxic mum) long

[sliceofsoup]

I usually keep my parents at arms length. We all go through the motions, family parties, weekly phone calls etc. But I don't involve them in my life as much as I used to, in fact hardly at all. All this has been the only way for me to cope with my DMs toxic behaviour and my fathers enabling of her.

But this has now crept up on me. I think I must have let my guard down a bit because it all seemed to be going OK.

I have been receiving the silent treatment from DM for the last two weeks. The reason why is too complicated to post here, but I basically asserted my role as DD1s mother in as gentle and as polite a way as possible. DM of course didn't like this, as she is Mother in Chief and how dare I go against her. So as I say, silent treatment.

They were invited round to ours a few days ago for DD1s birthday. PIL were also here. The first thing was that I had bought DD1 some new clothes for her birthday. DM had also bought clothes. When DD1 didn't immediately change into the new clothes from DM she made faces and huffed and puffed and flung the clothes at me. There was an atmosphere. This will all probably seem petty written down, but after years of the egg shells the atmospheres she creates make me feel physically sick. I am not allowed to buy my own child clothes. Or spend time with her if DM decides she wants her. I do not parent her right. Everything Dd1 does wrong is my fault, everything she does right happens organically, nothing to do with me.

She ignored me over dinner, or gave clipped one word answers. Her and DF both talked about how upset they were at the fact my brother has broke up with his girlfriend.

My brother is 26, working full time and still lives at home. He didn't bother to even send his niece (DD1) a birthday card, or reply to my message inviting him round. He is rude, selfish, owes them a lot of money, and treats them like crap. They let him away with it all. Of course they are upset he has broke up with her, she was a lovely person and was the only good thing in his life. Now hes off drinking all his money and they worry every time he doesn't come home.

I make them cakes and give presents at every birthday etc, he does nothing, yet all they can say at my dinner table relates to him and his life, all the while glossing over what an arsehole he is. If I ever dared "forget" a birthday I would immediately be pulled up on it. I have been pulled up for much less. This has been going on all my life.

She has even rearranged history in her head. Everything was my fault. When DB kicked one of our friends in the face, I was punished. Now she remembers it as I kicked the person in the face.

Anyway. The thing that hurts so much is that everyone (DH, PILS, my friends) can all see straight through her "public face" and they tell me as much. But I can't believe in my heart that it is her with the problem. I have been conditioned by her for so long that I am always trying to see what I did wrong or why its my fault. Logically I know the truth which is why I am able to write this all down, but I don't believe it inside.

I don't ever remember liking her. She was to be feared. But it was all emotional. Guilt trips and walking on eggshells. I have tried to go NC and I just couldn't keep it up. Now that's another stick to beat me with.

Sorry. This is really long. I don't even know what I want from writing this, I just needed to get it out. Thank you for reading.

TBH I would slowly reduce contact between your DD and DM further so that by the time your DD has her own strong opinions your DM is less of an influence.

So once per month down to once every 6 weeks over the next year and then even less etc.

I am sorry you feel that slice. I was trying to explain where I (and us. Although I can't speak for everyone) was coming from.

I also wanted to share with you the strategies that helped me and my family cope with a toxic mother. Counselling was great for me. Establishing firmer boundaries, and understanding that it wasn't me who had the problem. Whenever you mentioned something that I related with, I wanted to share how I managed to make it better.

Unfortunately it is not over for my family. My db who is ten years older is still stuck in the FOG. he is begginning to get it, but struggling with those boundaries.

I guess I am trying to say, badly, that yes go ahead and rant away. It really helps, ESP when the people listening validate your feelings. (Unlike a lot of society who pressure you to be nice because she is your mother and you only have one etc) But the people here who know how you feel, are going to want to help you and your family as Much as we possibly can by advising you on strategies that have benefitted us so much.

Please keep talking about this. Even if it is not here.

Sorry OP I don't think anyone's turning on you or expecting or calling you into action. Making suggestions is part of giving advice, is part of the whole process of support. Some people advise NC, others don't. Depends on how things come across to that individual. I don't usually advocate it because it causes more problems in the long term - I tend to think you have to play some people's games and give them enough to keep them quiet, then live your life elsewhere outside their sphere.

There are a lot of things you can do, routes you can take with this but nobody on here knows you or your life well enough to give you the solution, all we have is information drawn from your posts.

If you wanted to just vent and have no response then you've come to the wrong place. Actually it's pretty rude to draw people in like this and then turn around and have a strop after they have invested all this energy. Sorry.

But people expecting you to be nice as you only have one mother and people telling you you are damaging your own child because you have not gone NC on their say so are one and the same in my book.

I wrote in my OP that I went NC before and it did not work. I thought that might be enough for people to see that that route wasn't going to be on the agenda here.

If you wanted to just vent and have no response then you've come to the wrong place. Actually it's pretty rude to draw people in like this and then turn around and have a strop after they have invested all this energy. Sorry.

Mumsnet provides great support, but only if you are duly grateful? I asked no one to invest anything. I needed to write it. I wrote it. People commented and asked questions and I answered. But what I answered with wasn't what? Good enough? And now I am rude for disagreeing, and pointing out that it is beginning to feel like a personal attack? So I am not allowed feelings now?

No. I should just shut up and take it. The same as I have been doing all my life.

Unfortunately the way it sounds in my head as I am writing things down is very different to the way they sound in your head when you are reading them.

That is the problem with written text, you can't see the sympathy in the eyes of the people responding or the kind movements they make with their hands and arms. A lot of the meaning behind the words are lots without those.

I didn't read it as anyone attacking you. But that doesn't mean you aren't reading it that way. Again, drawing from my own experience, for many years if someone said something to me that even remotely sounded like it could be a critisim I would get instantly defensive. My dh noticed it when he would say something innocent and I would get all defensive at him, despite it not being a critisim. Both my sil notice the same with my brothers. After one particular nasty visit with my mum, one sil said 'now I know why you (db) take everything I say as a critisim. It's because growing up, everything was.'

Having spent your entire life defending yourself (because no one else did or does) I can see, now you are pointing it out, how what we are saying can read as critisim. And you have had a lot of that in your life.

But please take my word for it. I am not critising you. In fact, the vary fact you understand there is a FOG. and that you have attempted to put up boundaries. That you have limited contact with your dd and that you realise her behaviour is wrong speak volumes of how brave and insightful you have been.

There are women on here who are a lot older before they even start to have an inkling that there may possibly not be anything wrong with them. By then they are in abusive relationships with other narcs, their children treat them appallingly and they feel like utter failures in all aspects of their lives.

You have started on long and hard path and just stepping onto the path is incredibly hard and I for one think you did marvellously.

Your 'd'm sounds truly horrid. Would it help for you to get some counselling? I was in a tricky relationship with exp and just couldn't bring myself to leave. I saw a brilliant lady who helped me see clearly and build my confidence to a point where I could leave. Even if you don't go nc, it might help you manage the relationship better and be more confident that what you are feeling is right and ok, don't let her tell you what to feel, it's not her place!!

I totally get also that you have had a super tough time and with homelessness etc in the mix and you are admirable to transition from that and have some good boundaries.

Its just that situations can develop. My mother tried to scapegoat one of my children. She was stopped. She tried to scapegoat one of my brothers children horribly and contact was reduced to almost nothing. Then my SIL could see that she had moved on to target one of my sisters children. And it was so subtle. It was horrible and my sister is my mothers enabler so my sister will be allowing it. My mother starts by saying how difficult a child is and subtly reinforces it for years. Noone notices for what grandmother would say things about her grandchildren that arent true? Then she builds on it pointing out any unusual behaviour and getting lots of attention for herself including how great she is at handling it. Much of it is subtle and horrible.

I would as a first step ask what the GM says to your daughter and what messages she is being given.

Thank you for seeing it from my POV. I wasn't having a strop yesterday. I was just trying to articulate why it was getting to me. And I don't take kindly to being told what I should and shouldn't do when posting on here. Just because a poster wants a certain outcome from a thread does not mean they will get it. This is a hyped up version of real life, but it is still real life. I am not a pawn in the days entertainment.

I see it on here all the time. "What are you going to do OP?" Why are we always asking that? The Ops come to talk, to sound out ideas, yes to get advice. But they are not bound by any contract to "do" anything. If you invest on a thread that is your choice. It is not a two way street.

I am honestly super aware of my DMs relationship with DD. Yes, I don't know what is said when I am not there, but my DD is still young enough to be an open book. And she tells me a lot about her worries. There was a phase of serious undermining going on when DD was around 3. But I was forceful and upfront about that because it was overt. DM couldn't twist it as she hadn't been subtle enough. And DD didn't stay over back then.

See this is the thing. My DM builds people up before she brings them crashing down. I was built up to be so intelligent, so mature, so witty, so knowledgeable. It was built up to a point that I was never going to be any of the things she said I was. She then blamed me for "failing" and I have spent my adult life blaming myself. (This thought has been a bit of a lightbulb moment this morning.)

She isn't doing that with DD. I have lived through it and I know her ways. As soon as that would start it would be dealt with. The reason that DD stopped going every week was because they all started calling the spare room DDs room. DD already has two houses, two bedrooms. She didn't need a third and I immediately told DM it was stopping. And why. Of course she didn't see the harm blah blah but I put my foot down and it stopped.

I might be in FOG when it comes to me, and my life, but I feel I have stepped up and protected DD along every step of the way even though it has meant me having to go against every instinct that has been conditioned into me by DM.

OP I'm sorry I missed your post of 10:53

I want to see her cry for me the way she cries for everyone else in this family who has problems.

All I can say is I completely identify with that, understand it and know exactly where you're coming from. WHY they do this? I guess is in order to keep you fighting for attention, keep you trying but ultimately it's emotional abuse in the form of withholding affection, not something that's acceptable these days. You have been neglected and found attachment in your DGM, when you were then separated that must have been devastating.

I'm not sure what to suggest, you don't want suggestions anyway but if you do get any I could do with some. The way I've tried to deal with this is to get close to my sibling but he's pretty far gone now and if he doesn't perform for her then other people soon step into her spotlight. I have ended up being accused of jealousy and that hasn't helped matters, I'm not jealous I'm just angry that my mother doesn't put me higher in her list of priorities. She sees her children as employees rather than people with whom she has an inextricable bond, as replaceable subject to performance.

Sorry 10:47 on Monday

Yes. Since I was maybe 13 or so I always got the feeling that my parents had us because thats what you do. You get married and have kids. Very detached and clinical. Like employees. People there to do a job and serve a purpose.

She told me once that she had us young so that when we were grown and moved out she would still be young enough to have a life. Which would be a fair enough POV but to her she has literally waited for her life to begin. No holidays as children, we lived in poverty. No extra curricular activities, no school trips. Our house was falling down around us. Now? They live in a lovely and expensive house and have a very nice life. I know for a fact that there were very substantial amounts of money in savings our whole childhood.

My brother is an asshole, and I am angry, but its never at him, I do like him. I feel sorry for him because he is a victim in a different way. But we will never be close until he sees through them and sees what I see. I will wait for that day.

None of what you've described sounds petty or childish, it's hard when your self esteem is low to fathom out what is a normal reaction and what isn't. And like you say you are so conditioned by your mum in the first place that it is much harder for you to deal with than for example if my mum suddenly started to behave like that.

The stuff re your brother and the clothes, while not the worst things to ever happen, just add to your growing pile of things that bother you, can completely understand why you want to rant, sometimes it's so helpful to write it down. I often write massive opening threads on mumsnet but then don't post them because I've seen people get too involved with trying to fix the situation rather than listening and just offering support. I know people (mostly) are genuinely trying to help but there is a lot to be said for just letting someone get things off their chest.

for you.

Thank you rumbelina. :)

Sorry to re post here. Don't want to start a new thread.

My friend listened to it all last week and she is urging me to try to get referred for counselling. I am trying to build up the nerve to go to the GP.

I am just so angry. Things are no better, they are probably worse. I just don't know where my DM gets off thinking she is more important than DD1s parents. I don't want to go into details, but IMO she really crossed a line regarding DD1s dad (not DH) recently.

All I ever wanted was to be me and be accepted by them no matter what. As I intend to do with my DC. As parents should. Instead I feel judged and belittled and I feel like she is still bloody punishing me. I am nearly 30 ffs.

The only comfort I can take is that as each day goes by, it becomes clear that it isn't just me she does this to. At the minute there are several other family members who are out of her favour. Its like the elephant in the room. I know she is bitching about me to another relative as well. I don't have the energy to bring it up though. Why should I have to defend myself against whatever she has fabricated in her head? I can never win against someone who can twist the facts so easily anyway.

My friend was so shocked. It was just more external confirmation that this is not me.

Most of us as kids in some way have our parents on pedestals and it can be very difficult to accept our parents as they truly are and understand that we can't change them.

I found John Bradshaws book on healing the inner child very useful. www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Coming-Reclaiming-Championing-Inner/dp/0749910542/ref=la_B000AP7IVY_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1423870855&sr=1-1

That book looks interesting, thanks.

I know I can't change her, but hope is eternal I suppose.

I have no interest in speaking to her at all now. But I am loathe to give any truth to the shit she is saying about me, so I will be polite when she decides to remove me from exile.

I refuse to do anything that will land me with the "blame" this time. (I do realise that I will be blamed for something no matter what, I just can't stomach the same shit as I had the last time I went NC again.)

Similarly toxic family background on both sides, I won't go into the details. But I do get how complex and muddled it is.

My simple points are these:

1. You can g more NC than you currently are without wrenching Dm from DD's life totally, namely:

a)Tell DM that you cannot maintain this relationship as it is. As you do not wish to exclude her from DD's life, you are prepared for her to see DD in a supervised fashion in the context of a family mediation service, if she is prepared to share the cost of doing so. b) Say you wish to have no contact with her except this and any communication around the practicalities of this must in a written format e.g. letter, email, text. No telephone calls will be accepted, if she calls from a blocked or changed number you will hang up and if she comes round to your house or accosts you in the street you will call the police. c) Write a letter detailing your reasons dispassionately. This is not to change her or open a discussion, but to make you feel you have aired these things once and for all. It may take several drafts to get it to the dispassionate state it needs to be- no pleas for understanding. You can express emotion, but directly and factually e.g. "I am angry because you did x" not "You bitch you did this to me". It's up to you whether you give her the letter or not. Bullet points are usually more effective at expressing cold controlled anger.

My mother did try her best to let me have a relationship with my DGM and DAunty who were very, very toxic to her throughout my childhood. This was despite my letting her know from the age of about 8 or 10 that I knew what was going on and I was uncomfortable with my relationship with them- but I did see her point. When she died, they turned their toxicity on me. So bear that in mind too- the toxicity could be turned on her, either now or at a later date. Watch for that, and if you see signs of it upsetting DD, speak to her about it, and let her decide what she wants.

Good luck.

Thank you. You make good points but my DM would fly off the handle at any mention of any of it. Its just not worth it. It wouldnt matter how matter of fact I was, what I say would be an attack on her. I cant assert myself with her at all on anything ever. Her reaction is like dropping a mentoes mint into a bottle of coke.

I am also really angry about money. There was a thread on here a few days ago and a poster mentioned that they save all the child benefit thet get. It made me remember how she told me that she saved all the child benefit. I added it up, and now I know how they had £££££ saved by the time I was 15. They used it to build a house. And an arguement could be made that my brother and I will inherit. But ffs. We lived in poverty. We didnt get to go on school trips, or out with friends. We got fuck all. The sacrifice for their fucking house was made by two children. How fucked up is that????

I make the sacrifices so my kids can have a good life. Shes so bloody selfish she got the fundamentals twisted.

You have suffered neglect and emotional abuse, it's tough for you. Try not to dwell on it. Remember that abusers rarely admit to their crimes as it would destroy the warped world they have created.

Focus on other family members and build relationships with them. You don't have to have anything to do with your mother if you don't want to. It must be hard but other family members could provide the validation you need and deserve.

Just want to give you some big hugs. Yes yes yes to counselling to help you deal with it all.

Sadly we are programmed to love & believe & please our parents and it is so so so hard to overcome that. People who have supportive parents cannot comprehend how painful & damaging some parents are.

I think the focus about your DD is just concern that your DM has done her best to destroy you and at some point that could well transfer into starting on your daughter.

I've been there struggling with all that sort of thing but I have had the luxury of 275 miles distance so keeping ANY contact to an absolute minimum has been easy and tbh I don't think my parents have behaved as badly as yours!!!! It's not you, it's them.

I just so totally get the money stuff. My childhood was all scrimping and saving. Now in retirement my parents travel the world and there is endless money.

I think counselling would be helpful. But I think if you havent looked at Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website it would be useful too -she gives some subtle examples of what these mothers can do that most counsellors may not get. (I dont find the more commercial parts of it so helpful)

I just think its good to get as much suppport as possible including online support like this thread too. It helps to 'talk' to people who understand ( not intending to be a cliche) !

Thanks mumfun. After I posted that about the money I started thinking maybe it was a really childish and selfish way to think.

Writing on here is letting me get it out so it doesn't build up in my head. I make myself dizzy going round and round in circles in my head. I find once I get it out it calms down.

We had a lovely day out today with the DCs, and DH brought me breakfast in bed this morning, and a lovely card. I am in a good mood, and I have to just try to remember that I don't need her negativity bringing me down.

Hi slice..I'm going to be super brief..look up cognitive dissonance,
Its basicly that holding two conflicting views simultaniously, may cause quite severe mental problems over time
You for instance know you have been treated badly but are such in a position where you also have been thinking... allowing yourself to be treated badly is the right thing to do..( Even if you think you are doing it for others)
These are directly contradictory
One of the has to go or you will ...I'm going to use a technical term here...end up nutty as a fruitcake....
Choose
Choose the one that saves you and
That saves your daughters mother

"All I ever wanted was to be me and be accepted by them no matter what.
As I intend to do with my DC. As parents should. Instead I feel judged and belittled and I feel like she is still bloody punishing me. I am nearly 30 ffs".

Your age makes no difference unfortunately, they'll act the same towards you now for the rest of your days.

Unfortunately (and that is an understatement) your parents are not psychologically healthy enough to do that. They still hold the carrot, many adult children of toxic parents still seek their parents approval (approval that will never be given to them). You feel bellittled and punished because you are. It is NOT your fault that they are the ways they are; you did not make them that way (their own abusive families of origin did that).

Your mother will likely not behave in the same ways to your child as she did to you; their MO is different when it comes to the grandchildren (whom they tend to either over value or under value) but she could well damage your child all the same.

Counselling would be helpful, I would suggest though that you find someone however who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. NHS counselling is too brief and waiting lists are a mile long, six sessions as well is not going to be all that helpful.

Cognitive dissonance strikes a chord. And I do feel like I am getting more loopy as I get older.

Today I am assuming my brother has a new girlfriend. Because of facebook. My DM is now friends with a girl I have never heard of and their only mutual friend is my brother. He is also now friends with this girls mother.

So much for the ex eh?!!

I mean, of course people move on, and its not the new girls fault, but he and the ex were together 7 years, and it was only a few weeks ago DM was bleating about it at my table. Now shes friends on facebook with a new one? FFS.

I won't even get started on their views on my relationships. I would be ranting all day.