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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Anyone else end up as an angry banshee after living with “Mr. Nice” = passive & irresponsible?

197 replies

Somethingtodo · 07/01/2015 00:41

Anyone else been through this? I have just realised that this is the dynamic in my relationship – I have taken all the blame for our dysfunctional relationship because I got angry and angrier. I now don’t get angry but need to get divorced. However my 4 children (3 teens) can only see that I am the nasty one leaving their lovely kind Dad. How do I explain it to them – or do I not explain anything?
www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
“One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.
Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:
• The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
• The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
• The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
• Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
• The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
• The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
• The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
• The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
• Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

OP posts:
greenberet · 23/02/2015 20:43

ive just read that link - I am in recovery!!! i knew i had been changing- think thats why DH went for OW - realised i was no longer "needy" of him - and yes mylife - any hassle is always as a result of contact with DH. i have been mostly accommodating - dosing myself up on ADs to be compliant and then I started doing yoga and it has been a gradual shift until I had the speech.

Mylifepart2 · 23/02/2015 22:56

coda.org/index.cfm/meeting-documents/patterns-of-recovery/

good for you....I think I still have "areas for improvement".....I need to stop being so co-dep obsessing about his personality disorder and look inward to my own needs

LineRunner · 24/02/2015 20:30

Thanks for that link. I think I could read it and absorb it for days.

Mylifepart2 · 25/02/2015 09:16

Anyone here been following this thread??? Would you see the OH as PA and the OP as in denial?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2313526-At-my-wits-end-re-fianc-and-housework-long-sorry?pg=22

LineRunner · 25/02/2015 09:51

Yes, I was thinking that, Mylife. I did post on it, really just saying that in five years it will be unbearable but after they are married she will have to pay him to go away.

I really feel for her.

Mylifepart2 · 26/02/2015 08:22

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/26/stop-being-passive-aggressive-behavior-signs-_n_5515877.html

Found this really helpful article in The Huffington Post - with input from psychiatrist and expert of PA Scott Wetzler:

Ah, passive aggression. The best way to handle conflict.

Not.

There's a reason why passive-aggressive behavior gets such a bad rap. Not only is it supremely frustrating for both parties involved, but it's also incredibly unproductive to the passive-aggressive person -- because his or her needs aren't actually ever acknowledged or addressed.

And for the target of the passive aggression, experiencing this kind of behavior can "make you feel like a crazy person," explains Scott Wetzler, Ph.D., vice chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Montefiore Medical Center and author of Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man. "You're being told what's happening isn't happening, and there's something very withholding about the interaction. You know something is going on, and he's denying it."

At its heart, the behavior "really is a sugar-coated hostility," Wetzler tells HuffPost. "So instead of someone who’s actually going to assertively reject something you ask them for, these folks ... indirectly don't do what's expected of them."

Passive-aggressive behavior, while expressed in many different ways, has the same roots: There is an underlying fear and avoidance of direct conflict, yet a feeling of powerlessness and helplessness. The result? An unspoken power struggle, that can appear in several different ways. Some potential manifestations:

Sarcasm
The silent treatment
Withholding of intimacy
Withholding of praise
Being critical
Sabotage
Running late
Not doing something that's asked of him/her

Sometimes these passive-aggressive behaviors are intentional because the passive-aggressive person wants the other person to engage in conflict first but other times, it's not intentional at all, says California-based therapist Andrea Brandt, Ph.D., author of 8 Keys to Eliminating Passive-Aggressiveness and Mindful Anger: The Emotional Path To Freedom. "They find people who enable them," Brandt explains to HuffPost. They act passive-aggressively toward people who won't call them out, she says, and who have very weak boundaries.
Sometimes people are passive-aggressive because of how they grew up, Brandt says. For example, people who grew up in a family where one parent is dominant and the other is subservient may be more likely to engage in passive-aggressive behavior. "They learn that powerful and volatile people cannot be approached directly, but it's OK to lie to them, or keep secrets to get what you want," she explains. "For example, we've all heard this: 'We won't tell your father.' That's passive-aggressive behavior."

While everyone exhibits passive-aggressive behavior from time to time all you have to do is think about the last time you said "yes" when you meant "no" there are some types of people who seem more likely to engage in it. People who are avoidant and afraid of conflict are more likely to be passive-aggressive, as are people who are low in self-esteem and self-confidence "because you've never been given permission to have your feelings, especially your anger," Brandt says.

So how can you best deal with a passive-aggressive person?

  1. Identify the behavior for what it is: hostility. "The big thing there is to recognize the phenomenon, the behavior, for what it is -- to see it as a kind of hostility and not be fooled by the innocuousness, the sugar-coatedness of it," Wetzler advises. "Once you recognize it's a sign of hostility, it emboldens you to deal with it."

The biggest mistake people make is to be lenient. Once you give in to passive-aggressive behavior, you lose your options, he explains. "It's critical to see it as a power struggle, and then use the typical tactics one might use in a power struggle."

  1. Set limits -- and then follow through. Make it clear that you won't tolerate being mistreated, Wetzler says. If a person is constantly late and it bothers you, make it clear to the person that next time she is late meeting you for a movie, you're just going to go in without her. "That's a kind of limit-setting," Wetzler says. "It's also [a way of saying], 'I'm not going to pay the price for your behavior.'"
  1. Talk specifically not generally. If you're going to confront a passive-aggressive person, be clear about the issue at hand. A danger of confrontation is that statements turn too global phrases like "You're always this way!" won't get you anywhere -- so it's important to confront the person about a specific action. For instance, if the silent treatment is what gets on your nerves, explain that a specific incident where you were given the silent treatment was considered a hostile move. "Call a spade a spade," Wetzler says.
  1. Practice assertive communication. There's aggressive communication, there's passive communication, and there's passive-aggressive communication. None of these is as effective as assertive communication, Brandt says.

Assertive communication means being assertive and nonreactive, yet respectful. "You have a sense of confidence, you're collaborative, [there's a sense that] you both want to resolve the problem, in a 'win-win' sort of way," she says. It's also important to listen and not inject accusations or blame into the conversation. "It's not just about getting your way, but taking the other person into consideration as well. Acknowledge the person and validate their feelings, which doesn't mean you have to agree with them."

OK, so everyone can be passive-aggressive sometimes. When you find yourself resorting to this behavior, how can you stop?

Mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness, says Brandt. By listening to your body and how you're feeling, you can identify when you're disconnecting your actions from what you think or feel (which is how passive aggression gets stirred up in the first place), she says.

Getting people to recognize that the behavior is a form of self-sabotage is also key. "They don't link the fact that they didn't get the project in on time, or the fact that they didn't get the promotion, with their passive-aggressive behavior," Wetzler says. "They think, 'Oh, the boss is being arbitrary and unfair,' but [don't] think it has to do with their work."

It's also important to recognize that the emotion of anger at its root is not a bad thing. "Anger has many positive qualities: It tells us when something is wrong, it can help you in terms of getting you to focus, evaluate your values and goals and strengthen your relationships and connections," Brandt explains. So when you feel anger about something, it's OK to express it and directly address it with whom it concerns (using assertive communication, of course).

In that same vein, confronting fear of conflict can go a long way in minimizing passive aggression. In fact, in trying to tamp down on this behavior, you might actually experience more conflict, Wetzler says. "Hopefully that overt conflict can be negotiated and resolved, but it'll be increased because what's swept under the rug [ends up being surfaced] because there actually is a disagreement with something," he explains. "So now you have to have it come to the surface and hash it out. So to some degree, it's being more assertive, willing to engage in confrontation and conflict and being more willing to do things that are constructive that actually may take effort."

Ultimately, stopping passive-aggressive behavior comes down to figuring out what you want, and tuning out all the rest. Some people are so overly aware of what other people think and expect of them, so they just go along with it -- at their own expense. "They're not thinking of what they actually want; it's all about the other party's agenda ... they're not willing to say, 'But this is what I want.'"

The solution, then, is to listen to your own voice. "[Turn] down the volume on the external voice," Wetzler says. "Then you have a sense of direction."

AccordingtoSteve · 26/02/2015 08:56

Thank you for your posts MyLife, they really are helping me and provide a lot of food for thought

Mylifepart2 · 26/02/2015 09:01

You are welcome AccordingtoSteve - PA is the hardest behaviour to pin down as it is covert and wrapped in the Mr Nice Guy act - but the common theme is that the people closest are left exasperated and angry. Good luck with your journey.

Clobbered · 26/02/2015 13:21

Yes, yes. Angry banshee + Mr Nice Guy checking in.

Mylifepart2 · 28/02/2015 10:26

clobbered and accordingtosteve tell us your stories - vent and will will help.....

LineRunner · 28/02/2015 10:39

I'm still following this thread. I was thinking about all the threads from exasperated angry posters about their partners' snoring. It's not so funny when the snoring partner minimises it and refuses to do anything about it - won't listen to the problem, won't lose weight or stop smoking, won't see a GP or even go to a pharmacist, etc etc.

Meanwhile the suffering partner is becoming a basket case from sleep deprivation and resentment.

I can see a lot of PA in those threads.

kikiliki · 01/03/2015 00:44

Yes, I am another one, just checking in.

gateauxauxfruits · 01/03/2015 09:24

There's a thread about moving to Australia going on, where the OP is clearly passive aggressive. Thing is, she seems to have adopted PA as a coping mechanism for dealing with a controlling bully.

Just saying.

CalleighDoodle · 01/03/2015 09:59

My PA stbxh was exactly the same re: us moving to australia. Made all the right noises, attended nz and aus relocation events. Started visa process, looked at jobs, spoke to oerson at work who has close links with the aus schools, took advice from friends already there, got excited.... He at no point during this said he didnt, and never did, want to go. Not until when separated and I casually asked about it all.

Mylifepart2 · 01/03/2015 11:03

"There's a thread about moving to Australia going on, where the OP is clearly passive aggressive. Thing is, she seems to have adopted PA as a coping mechanism for dealing with a controlling bully.

Just saying."

PA behaviour becomes ingrained in childhood as the child is not in a safe environment to express anger or opposition (alcohol problems with parent, domineering, bullying behaviour, NPD,)...as any anger / conflict /confrontation would cause an eruption - so they learn that to stay safe they agree or say nothing (never "No"), keep under the radar, do what they
want and then express their anger by covert acts of hostility against the parents. However this PA behaviour is then carried on inappropriately into "normal relationships" after childhood.

The American Psychiatric Association (2000). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV. Washington, D.C.: American Psychiatric Association. pp. 733–734 define PA as:

Passive-aggressive behavior is characterized by a habitual pattern of passive resistance to expected work requirements, opposition, stubbornness, and negativistic attitudes in response to requirements for normal performance levels expected of others. Most frequently it occurs in the workplace where resistance is exhibited by such indirect behaviors as procrastination,forgetfulness, and purposeful inefficiency, especially in reaction to demands by authority figures, but it can also occur in interpersonal contexts with learned helplessness, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible".

Mylifepart2 · 02/03/2015 06:54

Wow big development at this end - could this be the absolute worst example of the twisted PA mind...?

After the dysfunctional and exasperating 30 year relationship, 20 years married and 4 dc (8yo-16yo) - I called time on it 7 weeks ago. He moved out 10th Jan. Last night I rumbled that he was in a relationship. I wanted to know if it had been going on whilst we were together - he said "No" - he joined Match.com the weekend that we separated and immediately met this lady and they have been together since.

He has been playing the victim for the past 7 weeks and the guilt has eaten me up - bleating around our children and F&F - how I chucked him out. But all the while (since we split) he has been in an intimate relationship - he hasn't mentioned that to others.

His rationale to me last night for moving on immediately - get this - was to 'prove me wrong" - when I said that the only reason I hang divorced him before was that I was certain that he would end up a lonely alchi in a squalid flat - so he decided to prove me wrong and get out of the house and get shagging....!!!

AccordingtoSteve · 02/03/2015 08:00

Hi Mylife I have a thread running on here at the moment titled "Dear DH"

I am still living with him at the moment but have told him I am leaving and want us to seperate. Am currently dealing with how the PA man reacts to such behaviour. Its going to be a long week for me Sad

Your STBXH is a prize idiot isn't he, I also suspect he is one of those men who just need to be in a relationship, any relationship as it means he doesn't have to internally reflect that actually it might be him with the problems. I almost feel sorry for the new woman who has NO IDEA whats coming!

LineRunner · 02/03/2015 08:43

I feel sorry for that new women too. She will either walk away quite quickly hopefully, or be badly burned.

What a horrible way to 'communicate' his displeasure with you. He doesn't care that actual real people are collateral damage in his unhappy dance, does he?

whattheholyfeck · 03/03/2015 16:21

Hello, can i join please?

I have only read one page but...my god...its my ex to a TEE. I will read the rest tonight.

Its upsetting reading but also very reassuring that this is actually a thing, and that I am NOT MAD.

I only got my ex out last night, and he still believes there is a chance with us. There categorically is not.

My thread entitled "Please help me LTB" was tremendously helpful, and I could not have left him without it. 15 years of emotional abuse, and I managed to leave him in 18 days, with the help of the amazing mumsnetters.

Will be back later

LineRunner · 03/03/2015 17:32

whatthe Hello - I saw your thread. How are you doing?

whattheholyfeck · 03/03/2015 18:44

I'm fine thanks, Line.

He's agreed to stay away for a week, which is much needed head space for me.

It was so nice to come home from work and not have to deal with him lying on the sofa while I do everything around him. And if I said anything it was huffing and puffing. Oh god I'm so glad to be out of it!

Mylifepart2 · 03/03/2015 22:37

It really is true that my biggest fear that the children would hate me for being the angry banshee who kicked out Mr Nice has not come true.

My beautiful 14yo DS has watched me in despair and going wild after I rumbled STBXH new relationship (moving in together at the weekend - after 6 weeks!!!) which started less than 24hrs after he left.....concluded,

"He is only doing this to get back at you for ending the marriage" - and he is so right the ultimate covert PA retaliation - a big "Fuck You" to Mylife, our 30 yr relationship and 4dcs.

giggly · 04/03/2015 00:01

I have been lurking since the start of the thread as I am another with a PA dh, finally great to put a tag on his behaviour. It was like an alarm going off in my head the more I read.
Been together 25 years married 10 with 2 dd. To say he has been work shy is an understatement but as he has a disability he has had plenty of sympathy from others over the years. Uprooted our family to move to a warmer climate for his health and he did fuck all in the years away either working or taking steps to improve his health. He has mastered the silent treatment to a tee with me of course screaming like a banshee.

I brought us all back as I need to leave him, actually I want him to leave us but like a bad smell he stays. I chucked him out last week where his parents put him up for 3 nights but he came back as he had no where else to go. His sense of helpless drives me mental.

I am about to change jobs which will mean a change of house and I will not allow him to follow us which he will do as he is unwilling to look for either work or alternative housing.
I am beyond sick of the life he has given us and so disappointed in him but I will stand firm and raise my girls without this hapless father.

giggly · 04/03/2015 00:03

'helplessness"

Mylifepart2 · 04/03/2015 00:09

giggly - reaching out a virtual hand to pull you over to the otherside - it really is so much better - keep focused you deserve to get away from this nonsense.