Anyone else end up as an angry banshee after living with “Mr. Nice” = passive & irresponsible?

[Somethingtodo]

Anyone else been through this? I have just realised that this is the dynamic in my relationship – I have taken all the blame for our dysfunctional relationship because I got angry and angrier. I now don’t get angry but need to get divorced. However my 4 children (3 teens) can only see that I am the nasty one leaving their lovely kind Dad. How do I explain it to them – or do I not explain anything?
www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
“One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.
Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:
• The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
• The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
• The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
• Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
• The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
• The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
• The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
• The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
• Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

notsogoldenoldie good to hear that you have a goal and a plan....good-luck.

Meera - at 17 his drinking was heavy but not out of the ordinary for teenagers - and also thru uni / our twenties - would have been OK at a big occasional party but drinking so excessively at home, dinner parties, restaurants, work events etc was highly inappropriate.....it did really upset me - and I was a squealing banshee about it - but he didnt care or change.

The PA stuff was there but harder to see at the time - I had him down as a gentle, calm, kind, man "Mr Nice" but he was also a slob (maybe standard for a drunk - lazy, dirty, hungover) - always forgot to do stuff - I turned into a nag - I took care of all finances, plans, decisions etc and was frustrataed with that - on reflection there was constant low level hostility - and I felt v lonely. Having children and real adult life kicking in was when it became unsustainable and I became exasperated with him.

hmm, sounds hard to see then. so many people drink to excess.

The loneliness chimes a chord. My husband was - well I was his first real relationship. He needed to grow up a lot. It was a very lonely time. But he really, really wanted the relationship to work and still does, so he did change. It's still hard work because goddamn it everythign he does in the house, I have to do over .... the dirty dishcloth SO seems familiar. I gather it's the same at work, stuff is returned frequently :s But he really does try and he's great with the kids and he does not undermine me, even when he disagrees. And i support him even where I disagree, which is often.

The thing is, he tries very hard and it's really genuine. He used to stonewall me so the relationship was on its last legs ... and he realised. He changed - all his own effort and work and it took a lot of it.

My PA stepfather, he said sorry but did the same thing over again. He said he'd do stuff and didn't. He saw a problem and closed his eyes. He sees what needs to be done and is really good at helping other people's problems - but doesn't do anything in his own home. It sounds so small until you see that the stuff that isn't being done really matters.

Meerka - your PA step-father in closer to my STBXH - when I had my 3rd child in 3 years and developed PND - he chose this time to take up every sport and run every committee under the sun - to avoid having 3 babies and an ill wife. He never got home before 8 so not there for bath and bedtime - even though he could have done as he had a shit job that did not require him to be in the office - the he took up playing football one evening a week, tennis another and chaired 2 other committees so Mon -Th was never home in the evenings -- was the local hero running local events etc for other families - but had abandoned his ill wife, babies and home.....then as above Fri & Sat when he was here - he got totally smashed and was hungover all weekend. House was, still is, a pit as I work full time with 4 kids. Add on the deliberate under the radar proactive hostile attacks on me and resistance to standard everyday requests re chores and parenting, then alcoholism and - boom - the screaming banshee was born.

God. I'm sure some people must have wondered mind you - three children, sick wife and he's out every night? People with a bit of sense must have seen something was wrong.

No wonder you had PND.

Well, there was me, calmly dispensing advice on this thread in a 'been there done that' Yoda-ish way, and now my XH has done something that leaves even me flabbergasted

Background: married since the year dot; he filed for divorce Easter 2011; divorce made absolute Jan 2012; finances finally sorted a year after that at FDR. XH now lives in a completely different part of the UK to DD (aged16) and me, with a woman who has a teenage son. The area XH lives in has very poor transport links by road and rail, so contact between him and DD has always been a bit of a logistical nightmare. He's also become increasingly involved with his new family and less willing to make the effort to see DD. Equally, she feels that her life & friends are here with me, so is reluctant to travel to see him. She backed out of a few things last year after tickets both for travel and events had been bought. I've felt for some time that I'm the only one out of the three of us who tries to maintain the relationship between them, as I truly want her to have a good relationship with her dad.

She's meant to be going skiing with her dad and his new family at half term, and she loves skiing. However, she hasn't seen him since September, and I don't think he skypes or emails her much. A few weeks ago DD said that she didn't want to go away with him, because whilst she likes skiing she didn't want to go with XH and his new family. I then quitely wrote to XH, telling him of DD's doubts, and urging him to contact her and say how much he was looking forward to seeing her, telling her about the resort etc, current snowfall, and generally bigging it up. No response, of course, as he is PA. (I don't email him because his emails were so abusive that I blocked his address.) I thought about things, and sent a second copy of the letter to his work address, just in case the first one had been purloined by his GF gone astray. The second letter has just been posted back to me by XH, unopened, and with no covering note.

There's nothing more I can do; this father-daughter relationship is dead in the water . I tried so hard, but he's not interested, and that breaks my heart for DD. Obviously, I'm not going to let XH know how upset and angry I am (or indeed respond in any way) so I thought I'd just vent here. PA men; the gift that keeps on giving,

i have just managed to read through this thread
"upnorth" I am astounded at your XH - and your poor DD but at least she realised this before the holiday.
I am actually feeling quite "flattened" after reading this
I realise that I have been a "carer" in my marriage probably due to having a DM who was emotionally distant due to illness., But I also swing into the manager role and want to get things sorted! I have been on ADs most of my married life - still am whilst going through a divorce from hell and realise I play straight into the screaming banshee "role" due to complete frustration and anger at the DH buggering of with OW and just leaving me to clear up 20 years of emotional & physical rubbish. He has no recognition of why I am so angry and his refusing to communicate with me makes everything worse. I guess in some ways some of my anger now is repressed anger during the marriage. I can identify with so much of this its actually overwhelming and the dynamics are in both sets of parents. The lack of intimacy big issue but never realised it was down to this - thought it was me on ads & due to years of IVF. The kids see me as the one who is always shouting and he is out to paint me as a mental loon with 2 harrassment claims against me for trying to get financial information out of him to get this mess sorted with least effect on the kids as possible. despite having his own business and a good professional reputation he is such a procrastinator - we had a hole in the ceiling for 8 years which was the first thing i got sorted when he left- there are so many half done jobs.

im going to take this thread to my counsellor and also copy some to my solicitor - i am so tired of fighting this battle- even something simple turns into a huge thing because i can no longer trust him and due to the games that are constantly being played.

I feel for all of you.

Thank you greenberet, that's actually a helpful way to view the situation. It's clearly preferable for DD to realise now that she doesn't want to participate, rather than going on the holiday and have her sending me miserable texts / emails all week.

I'm afraid that divorcing a PA man is going to be a long and frustrating process for you. Mine refused to provide a Form E until ordered to do so by a judge in court. Questioning your mental health is also pretty standard, too. My XH threatened on several occasions to have the court assess whether I was a fit mother. My counsellor laughed in my face when I told him this , and my solicitor confidently predicted that the court would dismiss the application / motion as malicious and without foundation. I therefore told my XH to bring it on, at which point he curiously never mentioned my so-called mental health problems again . The fundamental problem is that you (like me) will have spent many years giving in to your H in order to avoid the sulking and stonewalling. He is thus expecting you to give in again; that's what you have conditioned him to accept. It's a very difficult lesson for him to learn that this time you will not give in

I can really empathise re the years of stored-up anger. The summer this all kicked off for me I was learning to fence, which unsurprisingly was very good at getting rid of aggression! I had to stop the fencing as I was too old and slow, but any kind of physical activity would be good, and yoga is remarkably calming. I also had a very wise friend who would listen to me rant and then say to me UpNorth, you can't do that. You will look like a mad ex-wife. However tempted you are, never, ever ring your XH up when you are angry, as all you will do is give him ammunition.

UpNorth - I am so sorry for you DD.

Is this behaviour standard for the PA man? - the psychiatrist who wrote www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Personality-Aggression/dp/0671870742 - talks a lot about the irrational fear and avoidance of emotional intimacy being at the root of the disorder - is you XH afraid of this with your daughter as she becomes an adult - can he only "deal" with her as a child?

I cant imagine that this disorder exists in a vacuum with just a husband and wife - it must form the basis of most of the PA mans relationships - it would not be noticed necessarily in friendships - and with younger children they just let them do what they want - not sure I have read anything about the "adult child of the passive aggressive man" and what this relationship will be like.

the gift that keeps on giving - really true and as we saw in the link earlier we can expect this to intensify during divorce as their resistant, stonewalling behaviours go into over-drive.

My STBXH comes every here evening 7 - 8.30 to see the children and eat (I leave a plate of food as it saves us money) - he also comes on a Sunday 9-9 but as no homework was done, the place was left a tip and I did not want to spend 12 hrs roaming the streets I have cut it to 12-6...he only agreed if he "didnt have to do any chores" (cook food, clear up, stick on a wash, homework) - standard stuff in a house with x4dc. And I am delighted. No more deliberately fucked up / studied ineptitude / incompetence to clear up after.

But he still undermines - I asked him to pick up milk on the way over yesterday - he did - but this morning I found that he had bought some really shit cereal for the kids and hid it in the back of the cupboard for them - he knows shit cereals are banned - when he was living here - it was a weekly charade of me dumping full packets into the bin whilst telling him not to buy them again - and he just did what he liked.

He is living at his alcoholic mothers atm until we sell the house. I have to remind him that I am v v generous with access and arrangements - and if he keeps undermining me I will revert to standard every other weekend access - in his premises.

hello "upnorth" i came back fighting today after it dawned on me that my life was at standstill while DH is able to carry on with OW at my expense - hence some emails saying exactly this sol has had 2 missed phone calls from his sol this pm so im guessing he hasnt liked me pointing out that he is procrastinating and not fulfilling his parental & financial responsibilty. yes my bro told me to be prepared for the mental health thing as been on ads for most of my married life but ironically this is a clear sympton of emotional abuse. My knowledge on this is extensive - have read anything going - think they need to set up special divorce programme to deal with people specifically of this nature - will see what is store for me tomorrow now

I have just found a facebook page called "victims of passive aggression" - cant link as it shows my identity - but search you might find this helpful.

greenberet - it is amazing to realise that it is not you its him...take a look at this link - there are many others pages within the link as well which may help. It really is the hardest form of EA to pin down and the worst where you are gas-lighted to believe it is you who is mad.

divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/Pass_Agg.htm

Once the penny drops - it becomes clear what has been going on - and like other EA and personality disorders there is a set script.

For me it is hard to come to terms with the fact that I flogged a dead horse, made myself ill and compromised my parenting role and my relationship with my children - through enduring his undermining, resistance, lazyiness, hostility, lying, stonewalling -- and the lack of love and the deliberate neglect. Keep strong and keep talking.

Oh My God.... I have only read the first two pages and will come back to this thread later when I have more time but this sums my DH up.

Only last night I was desperatly trying to complete some very important paperwork which if not done and returned in the next few days will drastically effect our income so badly that we will have to leave our home and move somewhere smaller and cheaper. DH has been promising to sort this out for months but has not done it. He also does not work and is supposed to do most of the housework but this is all usually down to me as he never keeps his promises.

My DH also has an OCD, is this common with passive agressive men?

This has been such an eye opener for me, my DH has pretty much every trait, can these kind of men get better? Would it help to show him some of the thread and see if he recognises himself? Sorry for the rambling post. I will be back later.

Just checking I can atually post - this computer seems to be playing up

OK, seems to be working now . Hello greenberet and somethingtodo, and thanks for posting. I've calmed down quite a bit since the returned letter on Saturday, but am just very, very sad that DD will be spending half term in the grey and damp UK rather than skiing in the Alps. Very proud of myself for not responding to XH, though

something I don't think it's to do with DD growing up, but more to do with XH losing control over her. He must be quite angry that despite repeated attempts to bribe her with expensive gifts and holidays over the last few years, she has recognised his behaviour as manipulative and is refusing to play along. I've had an extremely difficult few years with her, but hope think that she is coming out of that now. DD has certainly realised that I'm the one who is always there for her, the one who asks her about her day, and the one who cooks her tea every evening. I got a backhanded compliment from her recently, as she wanted her ear cartilage piercing and not only insisted on my taking her, but also staying in the actual room with her! This from a teenager who knows everything...

Hang in there UpNorth - as a PP poster said up thread about her own father - the children know who is the proper parent - they are comforted and feel secure within defined boundaries....they feel adrift when allowed to do anything and given no direction.

Stormy - anyone can get better if they want to - but first they need to acknowledge the issue and the commit....we cannot do it for them...I have handed my STBXH the tools time and time again to sort himself out. He has not engaged.

How r we all doing? I am still painfully checking boundaries with him around every single thing - but in reality now he has left I have no consequences for him when he rides roughshod over agreements - have i?

I suppose it is now not 24/7 where he undermines everything I do in his PA way. Though he continues to manipulate and do as he pleases. Today I returned from popping out to find him in the kitchen making pancakes and a mess for the kids -- he had no right to be there. I suppose I just have to suck it up tip we sell the house.

This thread . Thank you for starting it.

Everything that has been posted is H to a tee. The ineffectual father and aggressive mother, workaholic, people pleasing, not completing household tasks but getting cross if anyone else tries! Even wiping down the fucking benches - won't do it. Ever. Even when repeatedly asked.

And the loneliness. Oh the loneliness. I have completely withdrawn from him of late - he doesn't care and has in fact completely ignored the situation. We no longer sleep in the same room and he laughingly calls our bedroom 'your room'.
I had a minor operation for a precancerous condition and I had to drive myself there and back. He wouldn't take time off from work. I am so ashamed by that. Don't know why. I know that his behaviour is not normal. He sulked when I was in labour because he had to miss his sporting game!

I will order the book.
I am so, so sad at our relationship. My FB feed is full of Valentines Day couples. H doesn't believe in it.

Ugh.

This thread is prompting so many memories.

Once I had friends he didn't like
coming for lunch. We both had the day off, so I asked him if he would go to the shops for some fresh rolls for ham and salad rolls, while I stayed home and tidied the house and prepped lunch.
He took so long, and when he finally came back our guests had arrived and he had bought tiny, tiny rolls. They could not fit in a slice of tomato, let alone anything else. Then refused to go back to the shops. It was so embarrassing.
I know it was a deliberate sabotage. At the time I couldn't understand it, but now it makes sense.

In a similar vein, if I have tidied or slightly redecorated a certain area of the house he is guaranteed to start a messy project there. He likes to keep our outside area covered in tools. Once I tidied a small area up, bought a tablecloth, candles... The NEXT DAY he had burnt a hole in the table cloth with some power tool and started a painting project on it to ensure it was completely ruined.
Apology? Not on your nelly.

Oh and one more thing and then I will shut up. In the two decades I have known him he has never taken my side in anything. Ever.
In fact he will openly and immediately take the other person's side. I might be discussing something that happened at work with people HE DOESNT EVEN KNOW and he will defend them over me.

Eizuudjej - welcome and feel free to vent, vent, vent....

This is one of the most difficult syndromes to pin down - and you feel that YOU are going mad as lots of little repeated actions make you incredibly angry over time - their resistant to everything, always being evasive, avoidant, agreeing to everything but nothing and doing what they want, deliberate under the radar sabotage....and the emotional distance and coldness.

And it is hard to talk to people about it in RL - because they only know Mr Nice and would think you are a loon and over reacting if you gave them an example of one incident which sent you into a rage ie that him coming back with small rolls (or in my case hiding shit cereal for the kids in the cupboard every week)....but they dont know the context and that every minute and every part of your life is out of control as under attack by the hostile PA.

And the deliberate neglect and contempt for my health was the final nail for me also....I think he reveled in my illness. If I was a cat or a dog the RSPCA would have him charged for neglect.

Here are my two most recent neglected health stories. They were an early warning alarm for me as to how I would be treated if I got truly ill.

I had a dodgy looking mole removed from my back last summer. I drove myself to hospital and back after having it cored out of my back and stitched up. I got a call a few weeks later to say it was malignant melanoma and that I needed to come back so that they could excise a larger area surrounding the mole to see if it had spread or not. STBXH didnt even look up from his paper when I told him. Again I drove myself back from hospital after having it cut out of my back and stitched up....had to sit there for an hour after as wound bigger....back and forth for wound care and then one morning I am going to have stitches taken out - no big deal - and he says "I have taken the morning off to take you to the hosp" - which in my book was was too little too late but I indulged him. Driving there he is engrossed in a news item on R4 - then he pulls up to reception and says "off you go - I want to listen to the rest of this new item so will wait for you in the car park".....couple of days later he trips up and mentions that an old colleague who didnt want to see was coming in to his office that previous Fri - so he chose to work from home to avoid them...(surrounding area was clear of MM).

Week before xmas my 8 yo and I came down with the most awful flu - raging temp, barely stand, delerious etc I called STBXH to say that I could barely get up to give v ill daughter water and medicine - so could he come home on time as other 3 older children would be home from school and I was not well enough to feed them.....there is nothing to do in his line of work the week before xmas - he said no I am busy - rocked up at 8pm, asked me if I needed a Strepsil and then went off out to play tennis at 8.30. I was so ill from that flu that I cracked 3 ribs from coughing so hard.

"Passive Aggressive behavior is a form of covert abuse. When someone hits you or yells at you, you know that you’ve been abused. It is obvious and easily identified. Covert abuse is subtle and veiled or disguised by actions that appear to be normal, at times loving and caring. The passive aggressive person is a master at covert abuse.
The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive is that they never follow through on agreements and promises. He/she will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while at the same time making it look as if he/she is pulling his/her own weight and is a very loving partner. The sad thing is, you can be made to believe that you are loved and adored by a person who is completely unable to form an emotional connection with anyone."....see more here....
Common Passive Aggressive Behaviors:
passiveaggressiveabuse.wordpress.com/passive-aggressive-behavior/

OK, just caught up on this thread. Mylife, I'm sorry to hear about his lack of concern over your health, but I'm not in the least surprised. When I had PND after DD was born, XH decided that I must be a fruitcake with Munchausen's Syndrome who liked the attention from medics, rather than accepting I was ill. Obviously, he has no medical training whatsoever, but that didn't stop him offering this opinion

As we seem to be swapping war stories, I'll tell you about a Christmas some years ago. It may be 2007 or 2008 - TBH I try to erase the horror from my mind. A few days before Christmas we had a delivery of pre-packed coal in 25kg bags. I was taking DD and a friend out for the day, so I asked DH to move the coal to where we stored it. (It would have taken 10 - 15 minutes, max.) He didn't, and nor did he start cooking tea whilst DD and I were out. I came in and told him what I thought about his selfishness, whereupon he went into a PA sulk. Clearly, moving coal to avoid his wife having to do it (which I did nine times out of ten, anyway) was an unreasonable request. Things were quite frosty up to Christmas, which we were due to spend at his parents' house with various other family members for good measure. XH helped me load extra dining chairs in the car on Christmas morning, then turned to me and said, "Right, off you go. I'm not coming." I have never forgotten the utter, utter humiliation of driving over to my PILs' house with DD, and explaining to the assorted family why DH wasn't there. I should have LTB then.

So childish of him - and so contrived to humiliate you. I was frequently abandoned whilst he escaped and left to endure / entertain his rambling NPD alcoholic mother alone. Took me a while to realise this was happening. The penny dropped that we only visited the exact hours that big footie games were being broadcast on Sky and he would clear off to watch with his Dad and I was left to sit for hours with her. Also on holiday at dinner he would gobble his food and then announce he was taking the children for a walk whilst again I had to sit thru her increasing loud boring pissed ramblings alone as she order her 2nd bottle of wine and slowly got thru it. The pain

Oh, if only we could see these things at the time! You're right; it takes so much thought and effort to humiliate someone in this way. When we were out together he would never walk next to me - he would always stride on ahead or lag behind. When I changed my pace to suit his, he would then walk faster or slower I still can't believe that my current chap happily holds my hand in public.

I'm feeling like a bad mother today . Yesterday, I had arranged for DD and I to go out in the afternoon to somewhere we both enjoy. I had told her the time we had to leave, but she kept me waiting, like she usually does. I was standing by the back door, thinking, "I spent twenty years waiting for XH, who was always late, and now I've replaced waiting for him with waiting for DD. Just once, once, in my entire f**king life I would like to live with someone who can get out of the bloody door on time!" DD and I had a full and frank exchange of views in the car, and have decided that in future when we are going out I will wake her up and then leave at the pre-agreed time. If this means that there are financial consequences (e.g. missed riding lessons) she will bear the cost. I really hope that this will sort the problem out; although we had an enjoyable afternoon in the end I felt guilty for getting so cross with her. I just can't do any more "being kept waiting because I don't matter" in my life!

Fascinating thread. I divorced my PA ex H 10 years ago hurrah - my life has never been better. I do think I would still be there but for the fact he over played his hand walking out on me and our young 6 month old baby because I had challenged him that if I had to return to work as he wanted, he had to share the child care commitments. Not likely says he and walks out - its a one way decision that one I pointed out - you go through the door you don't come back. I'd been there so many times I couldn't do it any more. He didn't believe me and that was that.

Fast forward 10 years - I don't really get angry and lose it but I so did when living with him. The sheer frustration of it all with the other one staring at you quizzically because they have no idea 'what you are talking about/what you mean/why there's a problem' - its genius really.

Interestingly Mr Nice is not Mr Nice when he has to do it all alone. My ex-H was always losing it with the kids cos he couldn't do a whole day on his own; he has walked out of countless jobs and now there's no one to anchor him I cannot begin to tell you how he has destroyed his financial security quite astonishing. The sad parts are the lying to the kids leading them on and then blaming them for it. That has been hard to watch but it was my life for such a long time so its easy to see the game when you are outside of it. I have taught my children how to survive it and not to pick up the responsibility. They have had apologies which is more than I ever got but I sense a new level of manipulation at play rather than a change of character or new insight - I may be a cynical old bat but then again we know who helped be get here.

I just want to say there is life beyond these awful situations but the dynamic issues raised up thread are so true - it takes a certain type of person to fall for this sh*t and I can relate to everything said above. I have stayed single as I think I can only really see PA candidates out there they are day-glo and normal folk are invisible to me so I need to work on that or better still stay single. Good luck graduates of the PA relationship one good thing is you really do learn to appreciate the simple things in life on the other side and that is an invaluable gift. We are also incredibly strong people.