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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Anyone else end up as an angry banshee after living with “Mr. Nice” = passive & irresponsible?

197 replies

Somethingtodo · 07/01/2015 00:41

Anyone else been through this? I have just realised that this is the dynamic in my relationship – I have taken all the blame for our dysfunctional relationship because I got angry and angrier. I now don’t get angry but need to get divorced. However my 4 children (3 teens) can only see that I am the nasty one leaving their lovely kind Dad. How do I explain it to them – or do I not explain anything?
www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
“One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.
Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:
• The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
• The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
• The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
• Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
• The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
• The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
• The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
• The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
• Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

OP posts:
Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 10:10

The single best thing about being out of it is that you can parent your way without being undermined. You literally watch it working before your eyes, instead of watching it all go to shit when they waft in and give in or make you look unreasonable somehow. -

Six this is so true and it has been really quick to turn things around.

I allowed myself to be trampled and diminished to dust by this dynamic but I was not going to have my children's lives blighted by it anymore. When I realised he had won, as I had zero control of parenting my children and their behaviour and emotional state had deteriorated to such low levels - I knew I had to do this alone for their sakes. I just hope with my oldest 16 I have the time left to heal and repair.

Amb I am a week behind you and anticipate a slow drawn out divorce which I will have to drive and he will undermine as ever - predicted in this link - but really just the usual behavior from these men.

divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/qt/Divorcing-A-Passive-Aggressive-Spouse.htm

trousers I remember your thread and trust everything is going well for you.

I have also found these links helpfuls
divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/f/passiveaggressivebehavior.htm

OP posts:
strongagain1985 · 02/02/2015 11:08

Yes I have one of these but he has improved over the past year by taking on more of the housework and recognising that I am a human with feelings. Still shit in other things such as all financial stuff and a few other areas in life. I have read all your other threads which I did last time you posted and it made me realise at the time that I wasn't alone and that I wasn't a monster. I have and still do have a lot of anger towards my partner for having to deal with EVERYTHING on my own and all the shit he put me through. Before we had children and before I knew how useless he was, we bought a house on a mortgage which he and his dad decided to hack to bits 'renovating' it. They left the house in such a state whith no bathroom, no toilet, bath or shower. No kitchen at all. 7 months later he was sacked from his job. Instead of looking for another he just sat on his arse and did f all while i worked my fingers to the bone to pay it and all the bills on one salary while suffering from depression and taking ads. There was no money to finish the work. It was that bad that I was eating one meal a day as that was all we could afford. I was then made redundant and during this time he continued to do nothing. I had all the pressure on me as he would do nothing. After a lot of struggle I eventually found another job but during this time we had built up arrears. I went back to work but then fell pregnant whilst on the pill and decided to keep the baby. I thought maybe he would sort himself out now... how wrong was I. During my maternity leave he still did nothing and we continued to build arrears as I couldn't afford to pay the mortgage, I was then made redundant again whilst on mat leave. He continued to do nothing. During mat leave he did, with the help of my brother fit a bath and a toilet so that I didn't have to wash in a bucket and shit in a bag anymore. Im sorry if this sounds far fetched, it is all true. I was still on one meal a day, I had lost a lot of weight as I was also breastfeeding. I struggled like this for 6 years before I decided to walk away from the house. For 6 years I cooked on a camping stove and during all that time he did nothing to help me change the situation. I was stuck in depression, like a robot just doing what I needed to in order to survive. I ranted and raved out of frustration as I had everything to deal with on my own including housework, all bills, phone calls including the ones to the mortgage company to explain why the payments were not being made. neighbours thought I was the bad one as it was me they could hear while he portrayed himself as a chilled out lovely kind man. After I walked away from the property and it was repossessed, I took a long hard look at myself and didn't like what I had become. I thought I had an anger problem and referred myself for counselling and CBT which lasted 6 months before falling back into depression. That was two years ago and it was only the other day when I read your posts that I realised what was going on. It's so hard to explain it when the other half comes accross as nice to others. Sorry I am ranting on and probably have made no sense but the point I'm trying to put across is yes I became very angry and resentful and was perceived as the bad one.

strongagain1985 · 02/02/2015 11:13

Sorry for the big long post and all the spelling mistakes.

havemercy · 02/02/2015 11:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 11:43

Strongagain - your post has made me cry.

You are not a monster - you are a lovely, lovely, lady who was abused, goaded, tortured and degraded - your overly nice and overly responsible nature kept you trapped (like me) in this dysfunctional toxic dynamic for longer than other women - they would have walked years earlier.

I, after 30 long years, only discovered the term passive aggressive a couple of months ago (in October 14) - I read this book and discussed it here on MN. It changed my life:

www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Personality-Aggression/dp/0671870742

It is hard that everyone sees Mr Nice Mr Charming (my neighbours think I am a nutter as they have heard me squealing like a pig for years) - but that doesnt matter - you dont have to justify yourself to anyone.

Stay with us and we will hold your hand and you will heal. Sxxx

OP posts:
strongagain1985 · 02/02/2015 11:53

Thank you somethingtodo. Havemercy- thanks for that, yes I am stupid and disgusting but I hope you never have to experience the things I have during my childhood and as an adult.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 11:54

Strong - as you are only a few days in to the revelation - I hope this summary of what I have read will help you. However - once we see the dynamic for what is is (toxic/dysfunctional) - and put these impossible men in their box - then we need to prioritise healing ourselves.

"One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.

Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed.

Agreement, Resistance and Hidden Hostility as Major Characteristics
The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger. He resists her in small ways setting up a pattern of frustration so that she gets to express the anger that he cannot.
The biggest irritant in being with a passive aggressive man is that he doesn't follow through on his agreements and promises. He dodges responsibility while insisting he's pulling his weight. He procrastinates, takes on big projects but doesn't finish them then feels put upon or hostile if someone else tries to finish it. He often ignores reality as to his irresponsibility and withdrawal. He denies evidence, distorts minimalizes or lies to make his version of reality seem logical.

He uses vague language to stonewall the partner. Inconsistency and ambiguity are his tools of choice. He often gives double messages and expects his partner to read his mind and meet his needs saying ‘She should have known how it is.' He withholds information and has a hidden agenda. He can't take criticism and makes excuses to get himself off the hook. He sulks and uses silence when confronted about his inability to live up to his promises, obligations or responsibilities. When he doesn't follow through, he puts the blame on his partner so he doesn't have to take it and accuses her of having the problem.

The man with this type of pattern shows little consideration of the time, feelings, standards or needs of others. He obstructs and block progress to others getting what they want and then ignores or minimalizes their dissatisfactions and anger. He is silent when confronted as he has never learned to compromise. He may be a workaholic, a womanizer, hooked on TV, caught in addictions or self-involved hobbies.

He feels others demand too much of him so resists in overt and subtle ways and feels deprived if must give in to others. The man who copes with conflict by not being there has strong conflict over dependency. He desperately wants attention but fears being swallowed up by the partner. He can't be alone and live without a woman in his life, but can't be with partner emotionally. He's caught in a Catch 22--wanting affection but avoiding it because he fears it as his destruction. He resents feeling dependent on the woman so must keep her off guard. He makes his partner feel like a nothing through his neglect or irritability but he keeps her around because he needs her. His script is ‘Be here for me, but don't come too close and don't burden me with your needs or expectations.'

He has such strong fears of intimacy deep in his unconscious mind so he must set barriers up to prevent a deep emotional connection. He is clever at derailing intimacy when it comes up by tuning out his partner and changing the subject. He must withhold part of himself to feel safe and may withdraw sexually. Closeness and intimacy during sex may make him feel vulnerable and panicked bringing forth his deepest fears of dependency upon a woman. The passive aggressive man lives an internal loneliness; he wants to be with the woman but stays confused whether she is the right partner for him or not. He is scared and insecure causing him to seek contact with a partner but scared and insecure to fully commit.

Due to the wounding from childhood, he is unable to trust that he is safe within the relationship. He fears revealing himself and can't share feelings. His refusal to express feelings keeps him from experiencing his sense of insecurity and vulnerability. He often denies feelings like love that might trap him into true connection with another human being. He feels rejected and hurt when things don't go his way but can't distinguish between feeling rejected and being rejected. He pushes people away first so he won't be rejected. He is often irritable and uses low-level hostility to create distance at home. The relationship becomes based on keeping the partner at bay. He often sets up experiences to get others to reject or deprive him. He is noncommittal and retreats, feeling put upon and burdened by partner's requests for more closeness.

He becomes a cave dweller to feel safe.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master in getting his partner to doubt herself and feel guilty for questioning or confronting him. He encourages her to fall for his apologies, accept his excuses and focus on his charm rather than deal with the issue directly. He blames her for creating the problem and keeps her focused on her anger rather than his own ineptitude. When backed into a corner, he may explode and switch to aggressive aggressive behavior then switch back to passivity. He keeps his partner held hostage by the hope that he will change. He may appease her and clean up his act after a blow up for several weeks, then it's back to business as usual.

Passive aggressive behavior does not happen in a vacuum; it requires a partner to bounce things off of. This problems exists between people--one who resists and one who get frustrated. The need for a woman to choose and remain with a passive aggressive partner is a dynamic that is set up in her childhood. The little girl learns this pattern in childhood observing her parents. One parent withdraws and frustrates the spouse who becomes angry. The little girl learns to take care of others and get depressed when they don't appreciate it. Desperately she wants the parents to change but cannot express her deep frustration.

When she grows up, the woman unconsciously chooses men who will play out the familiar patterns of her childhood of retreat and attack. She falls for the man's charm, his neediness or sense of poise and togetherness and ignores his real lack of connection with others.

If the man's hostility and withdrawal is left unchallenged, the woman's doubt in herself grows. His failures become her failures. The harder she works on the relationship, the cleverer he is in eluding her. Her life is in continual uproar as she mulls over the inconsistencies in daily events. He feels threatened and insecure and withdraws, she gets angry. She gets angry, he withdraws and the unresolved conflict boomerangs between then.

Relationships, which do not allow straight talk, frankness and appropriate expression of anger become destructive.

The woman living with a passive aggressive man goes back and forth between three rolesthe Rescuer, the Victim or the Manager. Living with the passive aggressive man pushes the woman into frustration and anger as a major dynamic in day-to-day conflict. When she cannot get her needs met, she becomes the Blamer, the Bitch, and the Rager, which then makes the man feel very insecure in the relationship. She is caught in her role as a martyr-victim, codependent rescuer or controlling manager as she does not know how to do anything different. She rides the emotional roller coaster as she always wants more from her manmore commitment, more cooperation and more doing what he says he will do. Her self-esteem erodes as her frustration and anger turn to rage as she feels guilty about the intensity and destructiveness of her aggression. She may repeat choosing passive aggressive men in several relationships until she learns how her own neediness sets her up for relationship failure.

There are many childhood set ups for his passive aggressive behaviour but most often there is a domineering mother and a father who is ineffectual.

Or there may be a passive mother who gets out of responsibility by her helplessness. There are power struggles in the marriage with one parent backing off and withdrawing. The boy feels trapped between choosing loyalties at home. He is afraid to compete with his father who is absent either physically or emotionally or perceived as being inadequate. In the typical mother dominant-father passive relationship, the boy learns that the job of being a man in relationship is to escape the woman's needs and subsequent demands"

I now keep a list - "The Little Book of C*nt" where PA incidents and situations (abuses?) that have happened over the past 30 years (some minor some major) that come to my mind at random times get written down.

OP posts:
MonstrousRatbag · 02/02/2015 12:02

Good God, how could someone choose the user name havemercy and then post as unkindly as that? For shame!

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 12:21

Stay with us and we will hold your hand and you will heal. Sxxx

Strongagain please ignore PP and stay with us.

I also had a v difficult childhood which is why I tolerated such bad behaviour for so long (co-dep).

We now know what he is - which validates that we are not mad/depressed we are just having a normal angry response to a hideous situation.

Our only mistake was to try too hard for too long.

Now we must look at why we tolerated this abuse - trying too hard for too long - and make sure that we do not do that again in any other relationship.

OP posts:
strongagain1985 · 02/02/2015 12:25

Something- it all rings true! Even though he has somewhat changed I still have anger and frustration for what he put me through. I did try to escape a few times but he would then result to trying to take overdoses in front of me which of course stopped ne in my tracks. Even though I am not living that life anymore I am extremely unhappy. That was when I was 21, i am 29 now and I have accepted that this is it for the rest of my days.

strongagain1985 · 02/02/2015 12:26

Forgot to add, I'm sorry my post made you cry. It wasn't intentional

WibbleWobble1 · 02/02/2015 12:30

There is a book I read once called "No More Mr Nice".. the traits you mentioned fit well and truly into the book.

It's awful.. that I can identify with some (not all!) of those traits listed. It sucks.

Can you tell him that he has no more chances, he needs to deal with these traits. Perhaps get help/therapy. Would be receptive to a suggestion?

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 12:45

Wibble - I will get that book....I have given my STBXH all the insight and tools - he recognises the patterns but will not pick up the tools to fix himself and address them - this has blighted my x4dcs childhoods so far - I have moved him out as they are my priority and I have only a year and a bit to redress the balance, heal & nuture my oldest ds.

strongagain please dont accept that you have a life sentence of blight and misery determine by this man and your childhood.

You have been wounded but you can heal.

Anger at him for things in the past and at yourself is part of that process....and is contructive. The anger now is informed and you look back and know it was wrong to endure - the anger then was as fierce but had nowhere to go as you tolerated the behaviour from him.

This a quote from Atilla on another thread today.

"Love your own self for a change and work on rebuilding your own life, self esteem and self worth; it has come in for a heck of a battering from him and it will take time, perhaps even years, to fully recover from"

We have the opportunity to heal and have a better life.

OP posts:
Meerka · 02/02/2015 12:47

my neighbours think I am a nutter as they have heard me squealing like a pig for years

This chimes so much with the situation that I saw at close quarters.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 12:55

Well that have not heard that for at least 2 years now - as I stopped the external anger - but of course it was still there internally - so he had to go.

OP posts:
kittybiscuits · 02/02/2015 20:21

Text from my ex next door neighbours to my ex 'We feel sorry for you living with kitty and we feel sorry for your kids having kitty for a mum. You can move in with us'. I also had a difficult childhood, and whilst my friends would love to kill the ex, my family 'don't want to take sides'.
How are things today something ?

greenberet · 02/02/2015 20:41

i havent read all of this post - but I am going through this right now - currently divorcing DH due to adultery and he refuses to communicate with me and has turned my anger at the lack of communication into two claims of harrassment against him.

I will be coming back to read this tomorrow particularly the links

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 20:44

Kitty - I am sure that is what will happen here - feel like moving/running away and starting afresh - STBXH is always the charming gentleman to all - and I am the fiesty, miserable, ungrateful, impossible to please, moody wife with MH issues - so I anticipate that sentiment from family, friends and neighbours.....

but when I told his best friend that we had separated he congratulated me .... as he said that he has a rare insight to our marriage as stays regularly etc and had watched me carry the full load of the family and this man-child passenger .... and he had not ever seen any of the PA stuff.

This from one of the links above explains why our difficult childhoods condition us (and not other women) to stay being battered within the toxic abusive dysfunctional dynamic...we try too long and too hard to make things work......

"She was taught in her family of origin to accept a high level of frustration for a minimal level of love and caring. When a woman marries the passive aggressive man she gets little return for all her effort.

A woman married to the passive aggressive man lives daily attempting to connect with her husband. Her attempts to connect threaten him and bring to the surface his fear of attachment, which means more withdrawal. The cycle goes on and on and on!

What happens when someone you love dismisses your efforts and withdraws? You become angry and frustrated. Your attempts to communicate calmly turns into deeper resentment and anger.

In response he withdraws a bit more and you both end up not having your needs met.

The passive aggressive husband won’t return his wife’s anger. He will ,get back at her in covert ways though. He will withhold affection, forget important dates…if it is something she needs, he will make sure she doesn’t get it.

His covert anger drives the wife of the passive aggressive man crazy. The crazier she feels they angrier she becomes and the yelling and screaming becomes a desperate attempt to be heard by a husband who refuses to listen.

The passive aggressive man fears becoming emotionally attached to a woman. Lessons he learned in his childhood taught him that doing so isn’t safe. What happens when the passive aggressive man’s wife becomes angry? His fears are confirmed…she is not safe and he is not safe in the relationship.

The woman who marries the passive aggressive man spends a lot of time hoping for more than her husband is willing to give her.

She wants closeness, cooperation, love and attention. She wants actions and behaviors from him that show her he loves her.

By the time my marriage to my passive aggressive husband came to an end I had no self-esteem. I don’t think I’ve ever felt as lonely and the sense of abandonment by my own husband was overwhelming.

The loneliness I experienced in my marriage was worse than any I had ever felt as a single woman.

The passive aggressive man sabotages his marriage but it takes that one special woman to enable him to do so. That woman who, in dealing with her own issues is attracted to the walking wounded.

That woman who goes above and beyond when it comes to making a relationship work.

And, she will continue to attract passive aggressive men until she realizes that, as an adult woman she has the ability to limit how much damage another person can do to her life.

Being loved should never mean turning yourself inside out for anyone.

Being loved means knowing when to set boundaries, knowing your own worth and if need be, walking away from a man who does nothing but withdraw and withhold what you desire."

OP posts:
kittybiscuits · 02/02/2015 21:02

The links are very powerful something and very relevant. I remember the first time I saw it pinned down in words - everything I had tried to fathom for years. I have moved - not very far but enough - I have cut contact with mutual friends and even some family members and I don't allow my ex in my new home. It makes such a difference to put yourself out of punching distance. For me, passive aggressive people attach themselves to people who doubt themselves and they drill into that self-doubt until you don't know which way is up.

Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 22:06

It makes such a difference to put yourself out of punching distance. For me, passive aggressive people attach themselves to people who doubt themselves and they drill into that self-doubt until you don't know which way is up.

I have to date sought to keep the children in the family home for their stability and consistency - but I do feel a reals sense of shame that I am that hideous banshee wife that I want to flee. But in my stronger moments I want to "face-off" ... and get the reaction like Upnorth where everyone sees her as calmer.

OP posts:
Somethingtodo · 02/02/2015 22:17

strong

"I have and still do have a lot of anger towards my partner for having to deal with EVERYTHING on my own and all the shit he put me through"

My STBXH was an alcoholic - it dominated 20 years of our relationship. He stopped drinking totally for 5 years (and was unpleasant during this time) - he has been drinking (not heavily) for the last 5 years......but I realise that I cant actually forgive the 20 years od alcoholic abuse although it has resolved. I must have forgiven/ignored/tolerated at the time - but now I look back at all the drink stuff and I cant forgive it now.................and I still seeth with that anger as you do - so maybe it is just a delayed reaction any other normal woman (co-dep) would have walked years ago - we are only seeing the light now historic crimes.....

Not sure from your posts if you are still with your partner.

OP posts:
CalleighDoodle · 02/02/2015 22:45

Fuck me that is my estranged husband almost to a tea. He did lots of housework but NEVER house maintenance (repairs/ decorating).

Ambivalence · 02/02/2015 23:00

Somethingtodo - I found that page -about what kind of woman chooses a passive aggressive man a few weeks ago, and yes - it describes me to a T!
Reading more about passive agression has really reinforced my decision that my situation was hopeless, and I would never be able to get the relationship to work.

I really relate to your experiences - Mr Charming, day to day life being impossible, him sabotaging, the emotional distance...

Again, I wonder why I put up with it for so long - but the answer I'd clear, in my family of origin I was taught to accept a high level of frustration for a minimal level of love and caring - and like a fool was grateful for those crumbs!

Somethingtodo · 03/02/2015 08:40

Ambivalence - how do we recondition ourselves out of those low standards? How do we know what appropriate boundaries and standards are in a relationship when we have never experienced it ?

I went from v difficult childhood situation straight into this relationship at 17 for 30 years - so all my life I have only had crumbs. And what have I taught my children?? That crumbs, anger, frustration. exasperation is a marriage?

I shouldered everything in the family - being the main bread winner, sole decision maker, all chores, all childcare etc - and on top of that tolerated alcoholism, lying, lazyiness, irresponsibility, coldness, slobbishness, no career etc.

What a muppet -- but my last straw was realising that my children were experiencing a shit childhood with dysfunctional parenting and a v depressed mother who was so diminished and destroyed by all of this that she might not be here as she might not survive.

OP posts:
Ambivalence · 03/02/2015 12:21

Something - my parents had a very unhappy marriage and my father often did not treat my mother with respect. It has affected all of my siblings badly.

When my caring and wise sister told me that her view was that my marriage was even more dysfunctional than our parents and what effect did I expect that to have on my baby ( I am pregnant with my first) it just resonated with me. I recreated my parents unhappy marriage - and now I was going to model a dreadful family dynamic for my child - and repeat the cycle with them.

My husband didn't have a career - in fact usually not even a job. He did a couple of hours of housework a week resenting even that.

Why did I put up with it? Presumably because I don't think I deserve any better?
I am on the waiting list to see a therapist about these issues and I am hoping that will help - 2 of my sisters have had extensive therapy which they found useful.

I am also reading a lot about passive agression, and that is helping. Also about attachment styles ( mine is insecure anxious attachment and my husband avoidant).

It is some comfort to know it could never have worked between us, but that doesn't mean I am not lonely. Maybe I always will be. It is fear of loneliness that's kept me in the marriage -but ironically I was lonely in the marriage too.

I am hoping therapy will help me to meet my own emotional needs and not be so reliant on others...