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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Anyone else end up as an angry banshee after living with “Mr. Nice” = passive & irresponsible?

197 replies

Somethingtodo · 07/01/2015 00:41

Anyone else been through this? I have just realised that this is the dynamic in my relationship – I have taken all the blame for our dysfunctional relationship because I got angry and angrier. I now don’t get angry but need to get divorced. However my 4 children (3 teens) can only see that I am the nasty one leaving their lovely kind Dad. How do I explain it to them – or do I not explain anything?
www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm
“One of the hardest patterns of behavior for all of us to deal with is passive aggressive behavior. Passive aggressive behavior happens when the person avoids responsibility and attempts to control others to keep them away through his passivity and withdrawal. It is a dynamic born of fear of being controlled, fear of confrontation, hidden anger and an inability to deal straight with people.
Passive aggressive behavior is complex and takes many forms. We all have passive behavior that comes up when we don't want to deal with conflict directly or do a task. We all hedge, fudge and remain noncommittal on issues some of the time. That's normal. It's only when repeated passivity creates severe issues for others setting up continual tension and anger in the household that it becomes a serious problem that should be addressed. Common examples of this habitual, passive retreat style of dealing with confrontation and stress include:
• The person who says one thing but means the opposite.
• The man who acts passive but aggressively gets his own way by not doing what is wanted.
• The person who fears self assertion and confrontation, but says no by sidestepping responsibility.
• Anyone in the family who creatively gets out of doing his or her part of the chores.
• The Mr. Nice Guy who puts on the sweet face to agree, then does what he darn well pleases.
• The parent who refuses to discipline the children and insists on the spouse being the ‘heavy.'
• The person who refuses to hear criticism, discuss his problems or read books about the issue.
• The not ready to be committed man wanting someone there for him but feels entitled to his freedom.
• Any individual who spends his effort into under achieving in school, in relationships and in life!
What all of these people have in common is that the significant people in their life become very, very angry at their resistant behavior. The negative energy in the relationship boomerangs from one partner to the other resulting in an unhappy relationship.
While women can have passive aggressive behavior, this condition is more typically found in men, therefore this article will focus on the typical male version of this dynamic. The typical passive aggressive man has not worked through his anger and power issues with his parents so he replays them in current relationships. His anger comes out in passive way of avoidance.

OP posts:
LineRunner · 18/02/2015 20:43

I have spent hours reading and re-reading this thread. This was/is my ExH. I finally understand.

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 08:53

LineRunner it is such a shocking revelation isn't it? Trying to explain it to others sounds petty - as you explain each separate incident. Even to justify your anger to these incidents even in your own mind without a framework feels irrational and unreasonable. But that is the defining point in "Living with the PA man" - he sails long fine - but his behaviour is "crazy making" for the the woman in his life. She is the one to seek help and feels she shouldn't be feeling so angry. When you see the whole syndrome written down it links all of the behaviours together and you can see it for the toxic, dysfunctional covert abuse that it is.

Up mine always did the marching on ahead. I would just stop until he realised he was alone. Then he would stop and turn around - say 'sorry' - but never come back to me - I would then walk to him as he waited. This happened when I was in labour - 10 days overdue with 3rd child under 3. Pulled up at hosp. He hops out of the car - grabs the bag and strides off. I have to manoeuvre myself out of the car between contractions get across the car park and into the unit in the dark alone. At one point I am leaning up against a corridor wall groaning through contractions and inching towards the mat unit and a nurse comes by and asks me if I need a wheelchair - I don't get to respond as he shouts "No she's fine" from down the end of the corridor!!

Middleeastern Did you know the term PA when you ended the relationship? Great to hear that there is life out of this chaos sand abuse. Sad that you feel terrified to love again. I expect also that he will frustrate the children and I will need to teach them how to handle him - not sure that I know how to - as clearly I was unable to manage him.

I am also worried that the children already show the dynamics of our dysfunctional relationship. Esp my oldest ds (16) - constantly late for everything, dismissive of authority - doesn't seek help at school - self sabotaging his education slowly but surely.....Up I wonder if you DD tardiness is related to her experience?

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 09:10

Middleeastern the point you make about us being co-depand that this is the bit that needs fixing is critical - that is what we need to work on unless we want to end up here again.

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 10:22

Glad this thread is still going.

middleeasterm you are right -we are incredibly strong people - we have had to be to carry ourselves and them for so long.

up my ex did the marching ahead thing - so humiliating. Final straw was this January -he managed less than 3 days over Christmas with my family - having tortured me for months beforehand by threatening not to go, and then arguing with me and making it miserable. On the way back from the aiirport after spending 8 days with his friends and family, me having to trail around after him while he pretended to them he was Mr loved up and oh so proud going to be a father - he argued with me on the train home and then stomped off at the tube station, leaving me to walk home inline in the cold and dark -but I was used to it by then.

It's been a month since he went back to his European country , his boxes are being collected to be shipped there on Saturday. My solicitor served the divorce petition in him 2 days ago ( I really hope he will sign without a fuss), it is really over.

I am so sad about this, it is all still raw, and as I am 16 weeks pregnant with my first, have lots to plan and organise. My family have been a huge support but I still feel very sad and lonely. Hoping that counselling will help. He was PA and I am codependent - in this relationship and also in some of my friendships, which needs to change.

Wishing you all well, ladies

Kleptronic · 19/02/2015 10:46

Me too. It's a relief to read this thread. If I start to put it down I won't stop so I'll just wave at everyone and scarper. ~~~

middleeasternpromise · 19/02/2015 11:05

My Life I had no idea this was what as I was dealing with I just thought I was another person whose relationship didn't work out and I was off down the road of divorce. I had great support for that process from a fab on line community.

However I really struggled to move on from it, so many episodes replayed in my mind of the way I had been treated and I couldn't believe I had put up with it was like a form of post traumatic stress.

It was really only watching his relationship with our children that brought it all to the fore. Demanding they come to him for the day and then taking them to his mothers whilst he 'nipped out' - to a football match for 6 hours whilst the eldest watched anxiously out the window worrying about him. Building them up for a holiday abroad yet when they arrived with their bags full of holiday clothes he said nothing and as the days went past and one of them finally asked when are we going on holiday he snapped at her 'you only think about yourself and money' too too many more to tell and they make me sad. Its then I studied him as a separate species and marvelled at how I put up with it so long and then the crashing reality of why did I put up with it so long. Im pretty zero tolerance these days and Im sure some poor folk who are having an off day get short shrift but its a readjusting process isn't. Now I know what PA is I can identify it and the long suffering family members who live alongside.

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 11:23

middleeastern wow! Teasing his children with the promise of a holiday abroad and then snatching it away -what a horrible thing to do! How old are your children and what is their view of him?

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 11:31

The war stories on this thread are so familiar - the cruelty, always putting themselves first, nothing is ever their fault -only yours. Living through it- you feel like you must be the crazy one.

My ex has upset me today by sending an evasive email about the divorce - he always pretends to be very naive about he ways of the world, which is why he is clearly an innocent victim, why he can't hold down a job etc, but he can be very conniving when he wants to be.

My family have said not to seek child support from him as it will be minimal and then he will always crow that he paid for his child, but I am minded to think that he should pay,however little it is - on principle -he wanted this child too and why should he get off scot free (plus he bled me dry for tens of thousands supporting him for 2 years) , what do other people think? He lives abroad , an hours flight, but don't see that he will be coming to see the baby much as he is already saying I should be paying for the flights/taking baby there half the time (have no intention of doing any of these, not having him at the birth either..)

middleeasternpromise · 19/02/2015 12:08

Ambivalence they were 7 & 12 then. He used to regularly do this to me I don't know why I'm surprised every holiday ever booked was in doubt until the last minute, sometimes he cancelled sometimes he came but it was always shorter than originally planned or a complete disaster because of his behaviour. The kids think he's a liar and completely untrustworthy and they are right. You can probably get away with drawing adults into your nonsense and then blaming them when they act out their frustrations but no one buys it when you do it to kids. They have called him on his stuff and he knows he is out of order hence the apologies. I have to bite my lip as I don't want to be that mother that alienates but I also don't want their trust broken over and over again. Fortunately they are shrewd and aware.

FWIW I get no maintenance - I could not cope with being reliant in any way or connected to this person.

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 12:34

One of the key characteristics of the PA is withholding and being obstructive to anything that you need or want - in order to be hostile and controlling. The next characteristic is to agree to everything and then deliver on nothing. Expect any discussions or negotiations to be drawn out, ignore, protracted, slippery etc - then any agreements flouted etc. If you want to spend a life on a wild goose chase with these men the pursue the twisted route to maintenance - if you want your sanity back - if you want a fresh free start - dont bother. This is a needs justifying the ends debate. dont look at it as letting him off the hook - I doubt it is the monetary value he is worried about -- but he will fight you just for the sake of continuing to abuse and control you.

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 12:57

So after 30 years recognised that I was living in impossible hell with the PA man -- and that this meant that I was co-dep as I flogged this dead horse for so long wen others would have walked long ago. Tried too hard for too long = WRONG.

I need to understand myself and fix this co-dep trait....I am now worried that I will or have transferred the co-dep from PA/alcoholic STBXH to children...

This link is helpful:
lanablackmoor.hubpages.com/hub/8-Signs-You-May-Have-a-Codependent-Parent

UpNorthAgain · 19/02/2015 13:23

Computer being fixed, so can only post briefly on phone. Very pleased thread still going; helps to hear others' stories. XH is going to return from skiing on Sat to find CMO letter about attachment to earnings - checkmate, at last, but he will go @peshit. Even though I live 200 miles away from him, I feel apprehensive about how he will react. This conditioning takes a long time to shake off! Might need hand holding online when it all kicks off.

LineRunner · 19/02/2015 15:34

Pregnancy stories re ExH:

The time I thought I had had a stroke when five months pregnant. I couldn't speak or move properly. ExH finally took me to the doctor's, who checked me out and said it was good news, 'just' a migraine - but that I need to be taken home for 'TCL'. I felt so deflated knowing inside that that was the last thing I was going to get.

During labour regarding that pregnancy, the midwife offered to break my waters. ExH's response was, 'Go on then, we don't want to here all day'.

Second pregnancy - he had an affair and I got PND.

He left in the end anyway. Thank fuck.

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 16:12

When I was 6 months preg with first we went to Cape Town on holiday. We decided to drive the garden route over a few days. He drove at about 100 miles per hour - me screaming for him to stop/slow down -- he just ignored me and drove faster. I was terrified - it felt sadistically hostile.

LineRunner · 19/02/2015 16:19

I meant TLC above btw, as in the tender loving care I was never ever going to get when pregnant.

Yep, ExH used to drive too fast. And be reckless with spending.

Another one - we went out for a special Xmas do one year, laid on by his employer. Train and then taxi. When we got in the taxi, he just got in the front next to the driver. Wouldn't sit next to me in the back. So embarrassing.

He would however tell me I was embarrassing him when I hadn't done anything except make a comment in a supermarket.

Does this fit the profile?

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 17:18

"Passive Aggression Abuses Your Rights

There are many ways in which people use power to control and abuse others. This is especially true of passive aggressive behavior, which is often about making the PA look his best, while taking power from others and making them look or feel bad. Which of these ways is your passive aggressive husband using to control you?

There are four main things a passive aggressive person will try to control or violate, in order to protect themselves from rejection and/or confrontation.

The Right to Know
The Right to Feel
The Right to Have Impact
The Right to Space

When he violates your right to know, he gives you unclear information, withholds information that you don’t “need” (like the finances), or gives you too little or too much information. With too little, you are left shaky and uncertain, realizing after he leaves that he didn’t really answer your question, or in fact made the situation look worse than you thought. This is where you may feel as if you’re expected to draw your own conclusions or “mind read.” With no information (“the silent treatment”) you feel like you’re walking on eggshells – or a mine field. When you are given too much information (anger attacks or blaming), you are not given time to speak, defend yourself, ask for clearer information, or set boundaries.

Your right to feel is violated when he tells you what you’re feeling, what you’re about to do or how you’re going to react. He may make claims about how you “always overreact” or how you’re just being “emotional.” He’ll make emotional demands about what not to feel (“Don’t cry”) or what you shouldn’t feel.

Crazy-making situations really start to show when your right to impact is violated. This is when he denies (by ignoring you, by overriding your needs with his own, by refusing to meet your needs) that you have an impact on his life. We measure our existence by how much impact we have on others, both physically and emotionally. If you feel like you don’t matter to him (don’t have an impact), it’s like being told you don’t exist at all! He can make this worse by “thinging” or objectifying you. He may treat you like a piece of furniture, coming to you only when he has certain physical needs. He may also deny your impact on him by denying contact – in other words, anything you say about his faults will bounce off and come back as something to use against you.

The last way he may violate your rights is to deny your right to space. In many ways, this is your right to individual power – the thing he wants you to have very little or none of. He may violate your right to emotional, physical, time, or mental space by saying that you doing x violates his right to do y (thus painting you out to be the bad guy, every time). For example, your right to be alone in your office violates his right to come visit you. Your right to have friends and family over violates his right to privacy and quiet. And so on, and so on.

These are the four main ways a passive aggressive husband exerts his crazy-making control over his partner and other people. Looking at them as your rights helps to understand this behavior as abusive – a denial of your personal rights to sanity and respect."

greenberet · 19/02/2015 18:50

hi all - just been reading some of the links

one of the biggest things that hit me was about them never doing what they say they will do - this is coming across so loud & clear as we go through the divorce - he says he wants it sorted ASAP but is the one who is actually stalling it - i can identify with everyone of those categories and I can see how they alternate between them so that it always keeps you guessing - its only when you slightly step back that you can see the patterns.

Has anyone got any experience of this in relation to teenage kids - I can see the patterns starting to filter through - especially to DD. I can also see how his whole family function in this PA manor - the manipulation, withdrawing (even to the extreme of moving), the drip feed of information, quite a few times i couldn't get my head round the dynamics - and would end up feeling frustrated but get it now!

it makes everything so bloody hard & unnecessary and the best bit he is in no doubt that it is me!

Mylifepart2 · 19/02/2015 19:48

greenberet

Someone posted this theory of "fleas" on another thread - the upshot is that if you are raised by someone with a personality disorder eg PA or NPD - but you are not PA or NPD - you will have developed some inappropriate responses and behaviours which you learned during childhood.

lightshouse.org/lighthouse-bak2/fleas-fleas-fleas.html

I suppose we should look out for both parts of the jigsaw - if there are behaviours that mirror PA and then other behaviours that are triggered by PA.

And of course those applicable to our own co-dep behaviours and our children witnessing the toxic dance of what they as "see" ie Mr Nice and The Screaming Banshee.

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 20:39

Linerunner embarrassing you by refusing to sit next to you in the taxi? Yes, sounds familiar.

I have resigned myself to exH not being co-operative with the divorce. He is being remarkably cooperative in. Getting his stuff shipped back to his home country -but that's because that is in his interest.

Unfortunately our lives will remain entangled if he wants to see the baby, but the consensus seems to be not to claim child support from him? He will be on minimum wage or benefits, and I earn a professional salary - my family say don't claim it, but I don't see that he should get away without paying to support his child -especially if he expects to have access, but perhaps you are all correct -it is not worth the trouble, particularly claiming when he is outside the UK (in eu though)?

LineRunner · 19/02/2015 20:53

Mylife Thank you posting that link. Fleas / shadows are something I think both my OH and I have.

greenberet Oh God, the drip feeding of information - yy to that re both my father and ExH.

LineRunner · 19/02/2015 21:01

Actually Ambivalence I found claiming child support through formal channels extremely cathartic.

ExH was being difficult, and so I applied to the CSA and they did everything from then on: all the phone calls, all the paperwork etc. It was CSA officers who had to listen to him ranting and raving and being sarcastic and putting the phone down. I just dealt with the nice case officers who let me know when the money was arriving. (I don't know for sure but I think that they got an attachment of earnings.)

I was happily right out of the loop.

But he was already on a police warning about harrassing me by phone.

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 22:08

linerunner thanks - that's what I thought - through CSA they will deal with him, not me - and I am sure they will be able to enforce in another eu country. It looks like it will only be about £30 a week or so, but over 20 years that will add up and is still worth doing.

Plus he owes me tens of thousands which were a 'loan' when he was living with me, and I know he has no intention of ever paying me back, so I don't see why he should get off scot free from child maintenance as well...

LineRunner · 19/02/2015 22:30

I know there's a new system now but I think there is similar "arm's length" version. £30 a week is not to be sniffed at.

Ambivalence · 19/02/2015 23:12

Yes, I have been looking at this, will do the arms length version after the divorce is finalised.

Read out his evasive email about the divorce to my sister - basically I am not responding to you, I will respond via a solicitor ( although he hasn't yet actually appointed one- unsurprising as why bother actually doing anything that is 'not in his interests' - she just said to me -' he is such a manipulative dick, always looking after number one, getting rid of him is the best thing you have ever done' - and she is right! I am so sad and lonely -but I was sad and lonely in my marriage too and at least I am now free of his bullshit...

MsColouring · 19/02/2015 23:15

I was married to a passive aggressive man and I am identifying with so much of this thread and the links. We split up 4 years ago. Divorce took ages - he has used the court system to try wreak revenge on me. He is a nightmare to try and co parent with.

I spent years thinking I was a mad woman (not helped by the fact my previous long term relationship had been similar) because I'd end up so mad with him. Since we split I have been so much more confident, had better relationships with friends and family and been better at my job. I still feel quite ashamed of the person I was in that relationship.

My dd was only 4 when we split. When I met my dp I asked her (aged 5) what she might think if mummy got a new boyfriend. She said it wasn't a good idea in case I got cross with him. That has always stuck with me - what my dd saw was me getting wound up. At the start of my current relationship I was scared of conflict in case I became a monster but have never come anywhere near losing my temper the way I used to lose it with my ex.

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