Rape? Or am I just an idiot? Or both? (may be graphic)

[bringoutyourdead]

NC. Hope it works. Apologies for typos etc haven't slept, probably still under the influence and freezing cold fingers.

I probably haven't posted in the right place but I post quite a bit in relationships and know people are straight forward and/or supportive if necessary.

I went out for my work Xmas do last night. I drank quite a lot. I was supposed to stay at a friends but didn't. I went with a strange man (boy? Man? He was probably younger than me). I dont remember how I got talking to him or where or why. I just remember being in a taxi with him, and a friend calling and me explaining I wouldn't be going to the other friends with them. Anyway we ended up at a house (not his by what he said?) and having sex. It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes but it's the sort of thing I "reserve" for LTRs when there's trust etc. I remember hitting him quite a few times for hurting me (like hits to the body) and saying "ow" etc. He was asking questions like is that good (in the "sexy" not caring way)....and I was saying no. But I never said "dont have sex with me" i dont think.

I stayed and was sick a lot in the night. I left a few things there (because they were covered in my sick anyway) and snuck out in the morning. I didn't have any cash with me so couldn't get home. I knew roughly where I was and after walking for about an hour found a cash machine and a bus stop.

I'm home now and safe but in some pain. I noticed after that he had used baby oil as a lube (pretty sure that affects condoms?) so pain wise it could be worse. I have burns on my knees presumably from carpet. I was sort of led face down on it in a living room.

I dont even know why I'm posting now that I've told "the story". I feel really confused about what happened. I think he took advantage a bit and that's making me angry. I'm so angry at myself, though. Is what happened rape, or me being an idiot? A work friend text to check I was ok. I didn't know what to say, can't exactly explain.

I don't know what I want. Someone to tell me I haven't done anything wrong and I'll forget about it soon enough. But I know I've been a dick and it's going to play on my mind

Many are confused about what constitutes rape. Many who have been raped themselves minimise as a form of self preservation, or try to explain by excusing what happened as something they could have controlled so they feel more in control.

It's not an easy subject, even with all the education possible

I hope that you're OK OP and am so sorry that this has happened to you. It's not your fault in any way.

If you're not able to speak to a friend/relative it's a really good idea to get some counselling through Rape Crisis. It will help you cope with what has happened. Please make sure that you have some rl support now.

Many are confused about what constitutes rape. Many who have been raped themselves minimise as a form of self preservation, or try to explain by excusing what happened as something they could have controlled so they feel more in control.

I know, I was one of those people myself for years.

It is hard for rape survivors to understand and accept, but when someone describes their experiences as clearly as OP has, I'm shocked that posters can still question if she was raped. IYKWIM.

OP, I'm sorry for what you went through and sorry for some of the responses you have had. I too believe you.

I don't want to upset you further but if you have any concerns about having had unsafe sex and HIV, please go to a SARC or GUM clinic (if there is a late night one near you) TONIGHT. There is a 72 hour window to be given prophylactic anti retrovirals that can prevent infection after exposure to HIV. You could go to A&E but they may not have the drugs.

AnyFucker and plenty of other posters have summed things up perfectly so I am not going to repeat what they said. It clearly was rape from what you said in your first post.

Forget about "did he have reason to believe he had consent"? He certainly had good reason to believe he didn't have consent - you were drunk, said no it wasn't good, said ow, and you hit him several times. If had any respect for your wishes or cared about your consent or, even, cared whether you were happy and enjoying it, he would have stopped or done something different that you did like.

In court, the prosecution has to show that it is clear that the perpetrator knew he didn't have consent whereas the defence only has to show that there is reasonable doubt. That seems to have spilled over into society, if there is any doubt, the woman isn't screaming blue murder, some men seem to think they don't have to take no for an answer.

My son asked me for advice about having sex with his girlfriend. I told him, consent is too low a bar, go for enthusiasm. It isn't always easy to say no; silence, not reciprocating, moving away slightly, any sign that someone is not enjoying themselves, you have equal responsibility to make sure they are ok with what is happening and having fun; consent to one thing doesn't mean consent to anything and everything; you can both change your mind at any point, it has to be about what you both want; not what one person wants. His response? Why would you want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to or doesn't like it? Which pretty much sums it up.

That is spot-on advice to give to your son, Bsharri

Bsharri's advice sounds very useful, considering the type of rape involved.

OP, I said it much earlier in the thread, but I just wanted to repeat- I believe you. This 'man' was a despicable excuse for a human being. He chose to rape you. You are not to blame.

I'm sorry to hear you've been finding it hard today. Do be kind to yourself, whatever it takes to get by.

(As an aside, I completely agree with Bsharri and her explanation of consent being too low a bar. No half-decent person would want non-consensual sex, yet some people seem to find constant excuses for it. I refuse to believe that men are like animals, who can't be expected to tell or bother making sure that their partner is enjoying themselves. Men can easily tell the difference between a willing and unwilling partner. Most would be horrified at the thought of continuing with an unwilling one. We need to stop making excuses for those who don't care.)

I want to make it clear that I don't agree with middle's post - I also detect a weird whiff in there. But I don't think it's ok to say someone has the mind of a rapist on a thread about rape.

I guess I just find the level of anger directed at people on this thread upsetting. The OP came looking for advice and support over a situation she was confused about. I read the OP and didn't think it was rape. Mainly I suppose, because I know how she feels. I've been in her position, or very similar to it, more than once. Most if not all women I know have been in her position. Where you have sex that goes bad. Where you have sex that makes you wonder whether the guy would've stopped if you'd really, strongly, asked him to. Where you suspect he might not've. Where you didn't enjoy it, and didn't really pretend to, but figure he might've thought you did, or wouldn't have recognised either way. Where you just kind of go away from yourself for a bit and come back when it's done, and figure it doesn't really matter. I don't think of myself as someone who's been raped. Most women I know don't think of themselves as people who've been raped. Mostly it's just a story you tell your friends and they pour you a wine and you all go 'ugh' and put it behind you.

And I know that sometimes, the 'ugh' tips over into something that becomes actually traumatic. This hasn't happened to me (yet) but it has, to friends. They still wouldn't say 'I was raped' but it's had a genuine effect on their mental state. And it sounded to me like OP was in this place. And honestly I just really feel for you, OP.

But so then I'm reading and people are saying it was rape, and was your drink spiked, and go to the police, and there I am thinking, you know, ok, maybe this IS rape but at the same time I'm trying to reconcile it with what I know of my life and this situation, which sounds so familiar to me. So I'm thinking, well, if this is rape, then is that thing that happened to me rape? Is that other thing? Are all those things that happened to my friends rape too? Am I a rape victim? I don't feel that I need the time and resources that a rape victim does, to deal with these things that have happened. I don't FEEL like a rape victim. I mean, is that what makes it rape? Feeling like it was? I guess I just always imagined rape being something you couldn't mistake, that you would KNOW, for sure and immediately that it happened. But maybe it isn't.

Anyway, so I'm trying to sensitively explore that, I guess it wasn't the right place to do it but I suppose an anonymous internet forum is as good a place as any. But what happens is a bunch of people call me a rape apologist. And to be honest it's kind of upsetting. Like.. I'm sorry! I didn't know! I just didn't know, and I still don't, but why are you all so angry at me about it? The OP didn't know either!

It's what I find difficult about the women's movement at the moment and why I avoid the women's boards here, because it really feels like unless you are 100% behind some things, you're the enemy. And I don't want to be the enemy. I don't want to excuse these asshole men, I just don't quite know how I feel about this, and I honestly think that women need to be a bit more supportive of eachother about this stuff. It's cool if you think you know for sure what constitutes rape, but some of us really don't, or have different definitions, and I just wish it could be more open and less of a warzone. I mean, women aren't the ones doing the goddamn raping, no matter what their definition of rape is.

TL;DR: Don't call me a fucking rape apologist

I mean, women aren't the ones doing the goddamn raping, no matter what their definition of rape is.

No, but it isn't always about the person who rapes you. It's also about the friends who don't believe you, its about the people you tell who say they can see both sides, the people who say that you probably did something to encourage him.

These people make it easier for men to rape and for women to doubt their own experiences,

Shaska - I think that is the point, though. Society views non-violent rape as a grey area, and it really isn't. But it is comfier for some women to look on it as a grey area rather than to say "oh my god, yes - I was raped. That makes me a victim."

Rape isn't a grey area. It doesn't have to be violent. The man doesn't even have to be aware he is raping you for it to be rape. It just has to be something you don't want to do but have been forced/coerced into doing. Just like the OP was forced/coerced into anal sex. Just like probably your friends who have gone "ugh" and put it behind them have.

And I think that is where the "apology" comes from. People don't want that label to apply to them - and if it applies to OP, then what are the implications of that for them?

Promoting a rape culture is the wrong thing to do. It supports rapists, so sparing the feelings of people male or female who are a "bit unsure" about what is actually a black and white issue is not in my vocabulary.

I also used to be at a point in my life where I had had similar experiences and explained them away in the manner some have on this thread.

But I was wrong to do so. I accept I was wrong and I educated myself. But, first and foremost I took on the basic premise of "I Believe You" and once I did that it got a whole lot less uncomfortable. I certainly spent no energy on railing against and otherwise discrediting those who assisted me in my education.

It's been a real comfort to me to find others who have been through what I have. That tried to explain away their experience, to minimise, to not want to have been a rape victim, to be going through the guilt of not reporting and to fear that they may have prevented another

If it wasn't for MN, I wouldn't have confided in my mum and dad and wouldn't have sought help and be getting professional help. For this, I'll be forever be grateful to those brave enough to post and make me realise I'm normal and not an ogre in how I've reacted to it.

me too Joy

I was date raped many years ago. I didn't think of it in those terms back then. He was a normal bloke, liked by everyone who got carried away. Drink was involved, I led him on see by taking him home and fooling around. I tried to raise it with him tentatively but he just laughed at me so I STFU. I even carried on dating him for a while in an effort to normalise it within myself. I never told another soul until I told MN. There are other examples, like there are for many women.

I don't consider myself a "victim". But I am not the same person I was back then.

Shaska, your long post made perfect sense. I'm going to try and not ramble in reply, but we'll see how it goes.

I empathise fully with you and your friends. For me, the alteration of my viewpoint on ALL of the rapes I've experienced was swift & simple. It happened after reading some of the clearly argued threads on FWR here, and also reading the entirety of the updated UK law on rape and sexual assault. I found I could reclassify the events for what they were. It did not make me feel 'more victimised' or anything, because I'd already lived those experiences and survived them. To a small degree, the re-labelling gave me peace because I'm no longer confused by 'grey areas' and 'blurred lines'. I know exactly what rape is, exactly what consent is, and exactly what happened each time it did happen.

I am getting treatment for some internal injuries I suffered thanks to XH2, years ago. I've sought this treatment before but, as I always mis-named and downplayed the injuries, I was sent home with a prescription for some ointment. Now I've told my GP it's an old rape injury. She was discomfited, but I easily calmed her because I am at ease with the truth - understanding and naming it has given me confidence.

Above all, I'm a hundred percent clear on what other people are entitled to do with and to my body. No blurred lines. No grey areas. No confusion. If I am not enthusiastically participating, they're not doing anything unless they want to explain it to the police. Likewise, I'm totally clear on what I may do to and with other people's bodies ... sexual assault cuts both ways sometimes, and I prefer to know what respect feels like.

I am more confident in this area than I've ever been - and it's all so simple, I could weep for the pointless confusion of times past.

You were very drunk. You told him 'no' so loudly you thought someone would intervene. You were hitting him to stop, you were physically injured. This sounds very much like rape to me. Even if you went there with the intention on having sex, you have the right to withdraw that consent at any time. And you did. And all of this 'take care of yourself' bollox, is like blaming OP for being assaulted. Come on ladies, you are better than this.

Garlic your post is bloody fantastic, if I knew how I would stick a copy of it on every thread involving rape that ever appears.

seconded

I need to be softer in my delivery. I just can't bring myself to soften the message, no matter how hard I try.

Garlic, can we do a Good Cop/Bad Cop thang ?