You are not responsible for the rape or sexual assault you endured

[differentnameforthis]

In light of many threads about Ched Evans' & his victim & in light of those who believe she could have prevented it by being sober (!), I thought it was important to raise this issue.

It doesn't matter if you were drunk
It doesn't matter if you were alone
It doesn't matter if you got into a taxi/car/train/bus with him
It doesn't matter if you went to a room with him
It doesn't matter if you knew him
It doesn't matter if you didn't know him
It doesn't matter if you started to have sex with him & said no
It doesn't matter if you had sex with him an hour/a day/a week before
It doesn't matter if you had sex with his friend
It doesn't matter what you were wearing

YOU ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT YOU ENDURED.

We believe you

Fact is that whether you are raped or not boils down to luck - whether you are unlucky enough to find yourself alone with a rapist - and as annie says that is far too discomfiting a thought seemingly.

Thanks Empire, that's a good tip.

Do you think murder is treated the same way? Victim blaming? Even if I attach it to avoiding attack of any form I am saying it is her fault.

Genuinely trying to get this clear, really not trying to offend.

Still trying to divert, Chimes. It's really obvious to anyone reading this thread, you know?

I notice that you keep doing that when you get pinned on a point or one of your analogies gets picked apart or questioned. I was sort of hoping at first it was because you were (rather carelessly) using loose language in a situation where you need to choose your words very carefully so as not to be misconstrued. But increasingly I have to think that you hold pretty unpleasant views because you simply aren't prepared to explain what you mean when you get picked up. I tried the hypothetical question to try and tease out the way you are thinking but you clearly don't want to get drawn on that (and I understand why you may feel defensive about it because you probably sense that your reasoning is faulty in some way but you can't pinpoint why)

So I'm stopping here. Absolutely no intention to attack or insult you, despite what you say to cover your embarassment.

Have a nice evening.

Thanks Seven - you're so right, people don't give bits safety talks centred around sexual assault.

God I am really beginning to realise how poor the messages I got as a child were. I have nothing to draw on

*boys

Absolutely no intention to attack or insult you, despite what you say to cover your embarassment said pompodd.

Who is embarrassed? And about what? Not me. But I am glad you are now giving up.

Aduaz so that girl / woman isn't raped and he rapes someone else instead.

How does that improve matters?

And actually loads of women get pissed and go home by themselves and have a wonderful, free and happy time. The idea that women should have to curtail themselves on the offchance that a rapist might get them is just really, I don't know, depressing. Men are also at risk of assault and attack and they don't get anywhere near the same dire warnings, nor anywhere near the blame if something happens. Because people don't think it's reasonable to tell them to curtail their lives. When men are raped in a "stranger rape" scenario after the pub the reaction is horror. Women need to be killed before the victim blaming takes a back-seat to the horror.

Whole thing is totally fucked up.

Joysmum it's just not true. Stranger rapes are a very small proportion of assaults, and have a spectrum of victims. Your daughter is statistically at a much, much greater risk from family members and friends - the ones you think should keep her safe. Rape happens in all sorts of situations, it's not as simple as avoiding dark alleys. Who knew to avoid going on Jim'll Fix It or going into Leeds Infirmary?

Not my quote but it makes perfect sense to me
If you promote changes to women's behaviour to "prevent rape", what you are really saying is "make sure he rapes the other woman"
So when you say don't get too drunk, or do this or that, you are actually saying "if there is a rapist on that street, make sure he picks the other woman"
The person who is the rapist is responsible, nobody else

& rapists aren't "monsters" most of them are tremendously ordinary.

The idea that rapists are monsters lurking in bushes is so damaging. Obviously some are, but others are your work colleagues, neighbours, friend's parents, ex boyfriends, anyone, even seemingly mild-mannered anyones.

It's more magical thinking isn't it that rapists are a separate type of person not like everyone else and so if you follow the rules and avoid "strange" men then you'll be OK. Only of course you may well not be. And meanwhile you're missing out on what might be a bloody good time with some strange men if you are that way inclined

SevenZarkSeven it doesn't improve matters at all, the other person he raped has just been the victim of a horrible crime that will leave mental scars for years possible forever.

Actually, men (and women) are given the same warnings about being attacked that women are about rape. I don't consider it victim blaming at all to point out things I could do that might lower my chances of being attacked. It's up to me whether I take them on board and even if I don't and get attacked, the attacker is the only person who should be blamed and every effort should be made for us to become a society where assaults are a thing of the past but reality is we aren't that society yet so we do have to be alert to these things.

YY goodasitgets it's a really disturbing approach and does nothing whatsoever to address the actual problem.

Men and women are not given the same messages about personal safety, not at all.

Crimes that are committed against men and women are reported and commented on entirely differently.

For eg I have never once seen a massive poster up in the tube station with the picture of a terrified man's screaming face as another man's hands close around his neck, to demonstrate how he will be putting himself in harms way if he doesn't follow a raft of magical rules on a night out.

goodasitgets you can't realistically take any action that would lower the chances of a rapist raping another woman but you can do something that lowers the chances of him raping you. We all want a world where people don't rape other people and hopefully that will one day happen. I also want a world where I can walk home drunk after a few pints to many and not worry about being attacked but right now I know that isn't the world we live in.

Young men in particular are at very high risk of being violently assaulted by other men. They should be the ones getting the safety advice and self defence. And I haven't seen posters warning them about the risks of getting into a fight when drunk.

Ha jinx Buffy.

SevenZarkSeven I agree there are differences are differences in the way crimes against men and women differ. Domestic abuse against men is seen as a joke by some, that he "must have had it coming", or that he's a man and should be able to stand up for himself. Whereas domestic abuse against women is always (or 99% of the time) taken seriously from the get go. I suppose you're right actually about the advice. While I stand by what I said that men are often given the "don't walk home alone at night" advice I will concede there isn't usually any massive posters with graphic scenes.

Bollocks is domestic abuse taken seriously Aduaz, that is just rubbish. It is very diminished, ignored, seen as 'passion' and all other forms of not being taken seriously.

Victims do not cause themselves to be raped. Rapists cause victims to be raped.

Rapists cause victims to be raped.

But until we can weed them out somehow, and we are not supposed to take care of ourselves, what is the solution then?

Well since you ask, I think that a big part of the solution will come from not asking any questions whatsoever about the woman's behaviour.

How will that stop a man from raping?

One of the problems with "being sensible" is that it can make life very, very limited. When I was young I spent so many nights out worrying about how I'd get home, and go home earlier than I would have wanted because I thought I needed a male friend to walk me home, so that I'd be safe. Then I wanted to go Interrailing with a friend and my mom and boyfriend convinced me not to because, you know, strange men in strange countries.

Eventually I realized that this is no way to live and now I do things like travelling on my own, which often implies getting into cabs with male drivers, taking incredibly early buses to go to my 6am yoga class and staying in the office late, on my own. As much as I try to have my wits about me, all of these are situations where a rapist could rape me. What am I supposed to do? Make my life incredibly small (and I could still be raped by someone I know in what I thought of as a safe scenario).