You are not responsible for the rape or sexual assault you endured

[differentnameforthis]

In light of many threads about Ched Evans' & his victim & in light of those who believe she could have prevented it by being sober (!), I thought it was important to raise this issue.

It doesn't matter if you were drunk
It doesn't matter if you were alone
It doesn't matter if you got into a taxi/car/train/bus with him
It doesn't matter if you went to a room with him
It doesn't matter if you knew him
It doesn't matter if you didn't know him
It doesn't matter if you started to have sex with him & said no
It doesn't matter if you had sex with him an hour/a day/a week before
It doesn't matter if you had sex with his friend
It doesn't matter what you were wearing

YOU ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT YOU ENDURED.

We believe you

Everyone is talking about the message to daughters to keep safe. What about bringing up sons to understand respect, consent, ongoing enthusiastic participation? Because hello, as long as there are rapists, our daughters will be at risk of rape, even sober, wearing ankle length clothing and locked in the home.

so is MN turning into reddit?

I expect this from 1st year arses who try to stir things up at femsoc meetings (they get flattened and some of them end up quite nice and useful FIY). Not on MN.

thanks for the kick in the head, rape apologists, you do that soooo well. Have you had practice?

Just one quick Q though. I was told I'd be knifed if I didn't hold still. Several times. So I went limp and let him push me around and well, you know what happens next*, because I was very scared. What was I inferring there? hmm? Was that a big fat yes from me then.

*tho I do bet you don't know exactly what happens next, what it's like, because you wouldn't be coming out with this appalling load of really damaging excuses for rape. Here's a tip- having experienced something yourself makes all the difference to your understanding of it, so you might want to have just a bit of humility and shut up when you see people getting upset.

I really appreciate everyone thinking of counter arguments and trying to keep changing people's minds on this thread btw. And OP it was very sweet of you to start it and I appreciate your message. I'm too tired, and too sick of absolute SHIT like this to make the effort myself tonight, apologies, so you get a rant instead.

The idea that women can prevent rape by not walking home alone, not getting drunk, not dressing provocatively, not "leading men on" etc etc is really just another form of superstition. The facts speak loudly and clearly.

Most women who are raped are not raped by strangers in dark alleys. They are raped by men who are known to them.

Most women who are raped are not drunk. IIRC, 3/4 of rape victims are sober.

Most women who are raped are not dressed in short skirts or low-cut tops. They are wearing jeans, jumpers, full burqua.

But we (society/women) cling to the myths that rape only happens to girls who follow the rules, that if we do follow the rules it won't happen to us. Because the statistics are horrifying. Rape is horrifying. To acknowledge that any man, especially those we know and trust, could rape us is horrifying. To acknowledge that there is nothing we can do to prevent it is horrifying. It's enough to turn you into a gibbering wreck and never leave the house. So women cling to these lucky rabbit's feet that are rape myths in the misguided belief that they are safe. It's not deliberate malice against rape victims or a bloody-minded refusal to accept facts. It's mental self-preservation.

Which unfortunately throws rape victims under the bus as they get blamed for not clutching their rabbit's foot tightly enough to have prevented their rape. And also unfortunately suits rapists just fine. Because while we're all so busy blaming the victims, no-one is telling them to stop raping, no-one is prosecuting them and they can carry on with impunity.

Right. That's fine, Chimes.

It just means I have you firmly down as a rape apologist.

You can have me down as what you like pompodd. I have never, and will never be a 'rape apologist' (I presume this is because I said women should take care of themselves). And trying to insult me and being nastily personal is your problem, not mine.

And if they don't "take care of themselves", Chimes...? Then what?

Sorry: rape only happens to girls who don't follow the rules...

or someone who's feeling a bit ashamed of what she's said, even if only because she likes to be liked, so is going off on a tangent to divert your attention

ah i feel my inner bitch warming up
or possibly my bitch shield, as was mentioned in another thread today. the Julien Blanc one I think

pompodd in reply to your question

*"Can I ask a serious question (but which is nevertheless set in a ridiculous context, but bear with me): Imagine that women, en masse, decided tomorrow that they would all stop wearing clothes when going about their ordinary everyday business. So all women in all public places would be naked

Do ChimesAndCarols and HumblePieMonster and Aduaz think that there would be more rapes and sexual assaults committed against women as a result?

Now imagine the situation is completely reversed. So men, en masse, go everywhere naked whilst women are fully clothed. Do the same posters think that there would be more sexual assaults on men as a result?

If your answer isn't the same to both questions, please ask yourself why it isn't.*

I don't think there would be more rapes although I definitely think there would be lots lots more perving. That is in response to both situations.

So you ignored every thing else I said, then pompodd except "take care of themselves"?

Look after yourself as best you are able. Do not expect all motorists to stop when your toddler runs out into the road because you refuse to hold their hand. Just take care of yourself.

It's got nothing to do with taking care of yourself should women curtail their lives and opportunities like this while they wait around for things to get to the point they bloody should be at? er, no.

Drinking alcohol has NOTHING to do with rape.
I feel an essential disconnect present here.

I need help with this, I find it so hard. I know you are right, this victim blaming has to stop.

It is so deeply ingrained that although my head knows you are right my gut says I want to tell my dd not to walk alone in the dark, to take a rape alarm, to take care of her friends when they're out, to learn self defence.

If she was raped I wouldn't blame her however, it is nobody's fault but the rapists. I just don't know how to educate her to recognise that not everyone can be trusted, but we have no way of knowing who cannot be trusted, and also empower her

She is only 3 so I have a while before we touch on rape but I am aware my flippant language or the language and behaviour of those around me could make her feel women are to blame

The idea that women can prevent rape by not walking home alone, not getting drunk, not dressing provocatively, not "leading men on" etc etc is really just another form of superstition. The facts speak loudly and clearly

It's not superstition.

Those looking to rape pick their targets by going for the easiest they can get away with.

Rapists will rape, but they will choose their victim. If you're walking home alone in the dark you're at more risk than if you're with others during the day somewhere busy.

My daughter will be told, as I was what friends look out for each other and keep each other safe.

motorists are not predators and they do not target small reckless children for the buzz of it. accidents happen. rape is not an accident it is a highly conscious decision.

why are all the analogies on this thread so utterly crap.

You're wriggling now, Chimes. Velour had it right.

We're not talking about road traffic accidents. We're talking about rape. What does take care of yourself mean in the context of a woman, using your logic, preventing herself from being raped? And if she doesn't take those steps (whatever they might be) how do you view her and the crime that happened to her?

Standing ovation for Annie. Summed it up really nicely.

This is an excellent article, about women 'following the rules'. It's been posted here before but obviously some people need a reminder. Sigh. Why do I get involved in these arguments?

fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/

Ok pompodd. Say what you will. Do what you will. You will anyway because you are not prepared to listen to anyone else's point of view in any way whatsoever. You attack me because I do not totally agree with you. What does that make you?

Cheese you don;t need to "touch on rape" you just need to give her the same advice that you would give a son, or a friend, or a parent.

Don't get so wasted you don't know what's going on
Do listen to your instincts
Look after your wallet etc
Make sure you know how you're getting home
& etc whatever you think are general good advice things for life

You don't need to give a specific rape set for girls. Same as you don't for boys, although they are also at risk of sexual violence, just not such a high risk.

She is far more likely to be assaulted by someone she knows so the idea from a young age that privates are private, people should listen to no and it's OK to say no, and she can tell you anything etc all that advice holds true throughout life really.

" What does take care of yourself mean in the context of a woman, using your logic, preventing herself from being raped? And if she doesn't take those steps (whatever they might be) how do you view her and the crime that happened to her? "

Things like walking home in a group, or not being so drunk that she is less aware MIGHT help prevent her becoming an easy target for a rapist. It might not, but it might. If she doesn't take those steps and ends up getting raped, I view her exactly like I do any other rape victim - The victim of a monster, a monster that should be locked away for a very long time.