MIL problems..

[Happymum1985]

Thought id post here as really feel at a loss about what to do.. Sorry for the essay, its been going round and round in my head.

My DH is an only child and has always had a close relationship with his mum. She has had a troubled life and because of this, has quite a few issues. Up until DS was born last year, I found her hard work and quite demanding, but we managed to get along fine and I always made effort to see her and have contact with her because having a relationship with her was important to me.

Looking back there were signs she possibly didnt like me, because her reaction when DH told her about our engagement and pregnancy were very odd (she said she was busy and would call back later and hung up the phone). There was the odd thing like her wanting to go on holiday (on her own) with DH for two weeks (two years in a row) and expecting him to go down and stay with her a week before DS was born to 'dig holes in her garden' ?! But again, I tried to be tolerant of all this. She is on her own and doesnt have friends so I understood she was lonely.

Once DS had been born it started to go downhill fast. She came to stay with us the day I got out of hospital even though I had specifically said no visitors. When I got back and she showed up, I didnt have the energy/ didnt want to cause a scene so bit my tongue. She then proceeded to stay for 4 nights and didnt lift a finger to help, wanted to hold DS all the time when I was still in the stage when I felt like I wanted to bond with him and hold him all the time. There was a time il never forget when my DH had popped out and she said she was hungry and me- the mug- was trying to bend down to get plates etc and prepare lunch for her 5 days after a c-section whilst she held DS. Every time she came to stay subsequently she was the same- expecting hotel service and not understanding things had changed.

The last time I saw her was 4 months ago when she came to stay and everything exploded. In a nutshell, she had worked herself up into a rage- we didnt realise- because she wanted time alone with my DH and apparently she had told me this in the morning and we had agreed she could have this time alone with him (i do also find this slightly rude!) -I had totally forgot about this so rather than saying anything she had got really angry. Anyway, i was cooking and passed DS to DH. As I did so, she snatched DS out of my arms and stormed past me saying DS needed to sleep and DH was exhausted. I was fuming, DS started crying and DH sat there like a shell shock victim not knowing what to do. I stormed up after her and retrieved DS (I dont know what came over me but i was shaking in rage). She then stayed upstairs for about half an hour and DH took her out for a walk. On this walk she slagged me off and basically told him she wouldnt be coming to stay again as she found me stressful to be around, that I was a bad mother, a nasty person etc and tried to stir problems between my DH and I by saying I didnt seem to want to spend time with him..

Since she left we have had zero contact. My DH told her that she owed me an apology. She refused to apologise which infuriated me more, and made no contact. It is my DS birthday in a couple of weeks and she said she wanted to come up to see him on his birthday. We have told her we are having a family day but that she can visit around the time of his birthday. She then asked if she could stay at our house (she has no shame!!). My DH said he would speak to me.

When he got back to her and said no, and pointed out to her that she had previously said she couldnt bear to stay with us and would stay in a hotel for her next visit, she announced that she had already booked her train ticket. She then said she didnt have enough money to stay in hotel (rubbish) and said she would meet me for a coffee before staying at our house to 'sort things out' My DH pointed out that she was being a little naive by thinking all could be forgotten after a quick coffee...she also upset my DH by saying its hurting her that he is 'choosing me over her'. He told me last night that it feels unnatural to tell his mum she cant stay.

Am I being unreasonable? Am I doing the right thing? I have stuck to my guns and said she is welcome to come and see DS around his birthday and that I will meet up with her to talk but that she is not welcome to stay. I don't trust her and feel like she is someone that enjoys drama and creating problems and her demands on my DH's time are not conducive to a normal functional relationship. I don't hate anyone, but I think I might hate her.. I just have so much anger and resentment there that I don't know if I can get rid of... I know things cant go on like this but I cant bear her and dont know how to move forward...

Dire warnings - for good reason. Read anything and everything; get on this as though your life depended on it (it does - or certainly your marriage does). It is an absolute condition that DH needs to read it all, too. Unless he is fully onside you won't even make a dent, a scratch - she will win. I wish I could say this is my opinion

Hope all went ok with him and his mother and he stood up to her.

Hello OP and other posters. I also struggle with a toxic MIL and am sending everyone here a .

Things started looking up for me when I started calling it what it is: abuse.

I was almost embarrassed to acknowledge to myself that I was in an abusive relationship (with MIL) - surely someone as smart and nice as me wouldn't end up in a bad crowd? kind of thing. But once I was able to call it out, I did slowly start feeling better.

It is emotional abuse and it is not ok. The key for me has been to use this realisation to relieve myself of all the guilt, anxiety and confusion about why my relatioship with MIL is so poor.

There is only one reason: she is an abuser.

OP I took great comfort from one thing you wrote about your meeting with your toxic MIL. You stood up to her and it felt great. It felt great because rather than letting her bruise you, you saw the abuse with a clear head and decided not to be abused.

They want to hook us. They want to get under our skin and use our despairing reactions to feel they have won. You totally won that meeting and she hated it. That's why she became bizarrly nice, to try to rehook you.

Walk away. Avoid, ignore, repel. Repeat repeat repeat. Rejoice in the victory of not getting hooked, of protecting yourself and your DS. You will become stronger. You will gain the upper hand. You will (hopefully) help your DH out of the FOG and later he and DS will thank you for protecting them.

Hope all Ok Op

I really mean that your DS and DH will thank you for protecting your family unit. Screw the dove and olive branch imagery, that is a load of trojan crud - bring on the Fierce Lioness!

You say 'we' and 'us' but there isn't a we and us: he has two wives.

I'm afraid this is true.

I don't think you are yet seeing her for the levels of ruthlessness and maliciousness she can show.

Hope you're alright this morning. Would be nice if you are able to let us know how you are.

Gosh, I too recognise the sick churning and the furious resentment that is caused by people with this 'narcissistic' type personality. For the psychologists on here - is it the same/similar thing as 'borderline personailty disorder'?

I really hope Happy you & your dh can work this out.

Am interested in this issue partly as have had to go nc with someone in close family for very similar reasons, having had to watch them torment someone closer to them and really f*ck them up....

Oddly this person seems a lot more balanced now, after about 6 yrs nc I got a very tentative olive branch and thought - don't be a wuss (the nc had led to nc with other family members too, who I missed - so did it for them as it were). So I braved it and it was actually fine. I think the 'culprit's personal circumstances had improved a lot , but have not enquired as to what led the apparent improvement. Not close now, but its nice to be back in even distant contact with the other relatives.

To get to my point, I think this is a pretty common trait, and I don't know if it might help (especially, help dh who is bound to instinctively want to defend his dm) to not see this as a) MiL is a "badddie" or b) MiL is utterly different from the rest of us and a freak of nature.

I think its fascinating how so many people believe their own lies - and actually as a battered 50-plenty-year-old I am coning to realise we all do this to an extent. And not on purpose. Not so much a quesiton of beliveing our own lies as beng lied to so convincingly by our subconscious that it never occurs to us that it's a fabrication that our mind has come up with, to keep us comfortable.

I think the difference with people like OP's MiL is the level of desperation, that the catastrophe they fear if they had to face up to reality is so devastating that the subconsious becomes extraodinarily skilled in throwing up nonsense scenarios to believe in, in order to protect desperate, panicking, wee child in the subconsious. If its framed like that, maybe it doesn't come across so much as 'having a go at her' or indeed them having a go at us, they are mainly concerned with self-defence? and maybe all of us dealing with such people, would feel a bit more empowered?

Actually I think people with a degree of this facilty//affliction are sometimes very successful in life because they are very convinced therefore very convincing, and the 'lucky' ones can become very skilled at charming people, to skate over the obvious flaws. I've worked with people like this, and its so maddening hearing people say how great they are when you know they lie shamelenssly/ cannot even remember the truth, and shaft anyone who thwarts them... actually I think it's a perfect set of skills for a top politician or ceo of a toxic multinational, but lets not get political....

Point I was trying to make is that MiL may not be doing it on purpose (hence the 'switches' - too rapid to be worked out???) I do feel that the poeple who cause most pain, are probably in most pain themselves. Not for a moment suggesting you should' make compromises', that won't help anything. Just hoping to make it feel a bit more manageable. OF course I may be misunderstanding all this, hopefully those with more expertise will put me right if so!

the key thing is Gladys that you stepping away improved the situation, they did not have license or opportunity to keep messing with you.

I think unless that is made clear the weird petty games continue and you're stuck in their script.

So regardless of motives it's about tackling the immediate behaviour and drawing boundaries as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

gladys narcissistic PD and borderline PD are different, can wiki the differences. People are often described as 'narcissistic' here though when what they actually mean is 'selfish, selfcentred incapable of seeing others' povs and often manipulative'. Which = a really unlikeable person, but not necessarily actually clinically narcissistic.

Some PDs are treateable, some aren't; some could be but by the very nature of the PD the person tends to think they're ok and don't need treatment so it never happens.

I think you're right, people like the OP's MIL are very unhappy. Very, very screwed up. It's sad, but also dangerous and destructive.

Yes brass & Meerka, I agree, you have to step away or you waste a lot of energy and just feed the besast....Though I wasted a lot of energy for a couple of years after I went nc. Partly my issue (anxiety), partly just recovering. Feel proud to have gained a bit more perspective finally!

Hi Happy, just wondered if you'd reached a way forward with your dh following your respective meetings with mil yesterday ? Hope you got your early(ish) night and things went as well as could be expected.

nicenewdusters youre right about the heart ache. Its been the worst 4 years old my life.

Dh was deep in FOG (as in fear, obligation and mostly in denial).

I have been trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with someone that isnt there. Isnt there emotionally as he was in shock and so retreated.

Only very recently and after 6 months of couples therapy has he finally realised and I quote

"Then everything went wrong with my parents and I got myself into a hole and instead of continuing to communicate, I stopped. For some reason I thought that would help me. It most certainly didn't, and I don't think it was a conscious decision - I just retreated, not just from you but from everyone.
That was wrong. "

THIS (above) has saved our marriage. Dh is back and communicating again. Its like he went into shock and never came back again.

Also, we have finally told the children (they had forgotten their GP as were aged 3 and 4 when it all happened). We never said anything negative about their grandparents to keep the door open for reconciliation.

We've told them that Grandma says hurtful things and doesnt say sorry. That she doesnt play nicely and we dont play with people like that.

Its taken 4 years. But we have closed the door. Dh is back from where he had retreated from. It is a scar that will never go away but one we are able to live with.

Its very very very sad and nearly cost me my marriage.

But my MIL is either a psychopath or psychotic - were not sure. And she hates me loving her son.

Couples therapy all the way.

Happy we are all thinking of you. Stay close to Mr Happy. It will be ok in the end.

x

So glad that your marriage survived ElectricBlanket, you sound like an awesome couple. What a nightmare for your husband to have to come to such a realisation about his own mum. I think you're both very brave to have put yourself through the counselling.

What a strange and frightening place it must be to inhabit where you hate somebody loving your son ? My dc are only young, but the idea that in the future they will find someone who loves them and cares for them is surely a blessing.

I think my dp is in retreat. I know that he doesn't really discuss personal things with his family. They're a sweep it under the carpet family, they have so many elephants in the room it's practically a zoo ! I have some long hard thinking to do.

I was head to head with my DH over the issue for many years. The more I pushed to talk about it and deal with events, the more he retreated and the more defensive he became.

It is still unpleasant to discuss and can lead to arguments (the only thing we argue about basically, grrr MIL) but there is much better dialogue.

The change was that I worked hard to shift the discussion from me and DH as adversaries on this issue and also toned down my language and emotion in the discussions. I tried to approach it more diplomatically after years of "I hate MIL! style rants" I went to the middle ground and thus gave him a chance to join me there.

That has helped a huge amount. We now work together better with the common goal of protecting our family from this nonsense (abuse).

I obviously still have to go rage at something in the garage or whatever when MIL is on particular form, but working v hard not to take the frustration directly out on DH has helped us a huge amount.

I also considered divorce. I think many of us in this situation do at some point. But then she wins and everyone else loses.

So how did it go?

Hi all, have found it so fascinating reading all your posts as there are so many points in them that ring true for me also, and whilst im sorry you are all going through/ been through it, its comforting to know we arent alone right?! And that there is light the other side if handled correctly.

So I was just drifting off to sleep last night when DH got in and we had a brief conversation last night where he was simply communicating what she had said. To be fair, her version was in line with mine to an extent, and she even admitted that she had not let me speak, but that she wanted to 'help me to understand how hurt her feelings were' He said his mum feels like I am punishing her??!!

..she also told DH that she had found me aggressive and that I was attacking her (all of which I expected she would say). But he didnt say "she said you were aggressive but dont worry I know you werent" he said "she said you were aggressive" and just left it at that, which frustrated me because I felt like he was leaving it as a statement and I had to defend myself. I ended up snapping that he was weak (hangs head). I was tired and think it all got on top of me. I went to bed feeling despairing.

Anyway, today I was working (practically ran out the house I was so happy to get away) and she came over to the house (grrrr) to spend day with DH and DS. I felt pretty weird about it because its like her fantasy life really without me there. When I got home I was a bit upset because DH had not had any contact whatsoever with me all day. We normally always text/wattsapp and maybe a call, but today when I needed some reassurance, nothing. When I came in I picked him up on it and he just said he had been busy.

This evening we have talked about it, and I said that I felt he wasnt standing up to her enough and that he was a soft touch. I said it would only work if we were strong together. He got very angry with me and said that he knew his mum wasnt normal but that I am only seeing things from my point of view. He also said that he DOES stick up for me and defend me but that I am not there to see it and he wishes I would have a little more faith in us and that I have made this a bigger deal than it needs to be.

I am just not sure he will ever see what I have seen.. but he also said he doesnt want to talk about it anymore and that he is done. He said he overestimated our compatibility and that he genuinely hoped that we couldve met up and sorted things out. I feel like I can't talk about it any more with him now.

Ask him to read this thread.

Oh happy.

I've had the 'punishing' thing thrown at me. How long should she be punished for one mistake etc. trying to be all big and admitting they are a knob then turning it to all poor them.

I think you are on a hiding to nothing with your DH for now, but, he knows it's her, he absolutely does. He's not angry at you for what you have or haven't done, he's angry because you aren't rolling over and taking it and giving him and mil an easy life.

Let the dust settle and give him time because I bet he's equally as annoyed with her just his heads battered. It took time for me and DH to be able to sit and talk openly about his family.

Your DH clearly wishes it all to go away but that's not a realistic expectation. If it helps, I also had that phase with my DH. I backed off the issue for a while then went back to it in a more considered fashion. Could you imagine that pathway.

You're right that at least it is comforting that others feel the same way. We should be fierce lionesses and get our strength from our lion pack here!

Is MIL still hoping to stay at your house over DS birthday period?

She says you are punishing her, but has she apologised yet?

Tell him he is welcome to see her on his own at her house, you're no longer interested in being the villain, your done!

Please don't feel guilty for calling him weak

He is is weak, and selfish. You have tried and put yourself in difficult uncomfortable positions for him, you have bitten your tongue and allowed someone to treat you badly, for him. You met up with her because it was what he wanted

So what exactly is he doing for you? When is he making himself uncomfortable to ensure your feelings are protected? Of course it's a difficult situation for him but you're the one bearing the brunt and he expects you to bend over backwards so his life (and his version of reality) isn't disrupted

There is not a person in the world my DH would allow to treat me badly, and I have a mother I adore more than I can say but I would never let her treat my DH how your mil has treated you

Please stay strong, you sound so lovely and you don't deserve this at all

My sympathies about your DH, Happy. My ex wife was the narcissist in the family and I put up with it for the sake of the kids. But it all came too much and my health was really suffering (as you’d expect, I couldn’t do anything right) so I had to call it a day. I was her enabler, but didn’t understand narcissism and the way in which they think. I was trying to rationalise everything, and in the main succeeding doing it to myself, but it wasn’t working and she was as bad as she ever was. She then went batshit crazy when I said that I was leaving the marriage, and the absolute venom which was directed at me was hard to believe. What really did it though was that the venom was so bad she didn’t care who was caught in the crossfire, and the kids caught it full on. They then saw what their mother was really like, and decided to live with me which sent her really apoplectic. It wasn’t that she wanted them (which they sadly saw) but that she wanted to stop me having them. They and I saw the extent of her manipulation to get her own way.

So what I’m really saying is that since your MIL has not turned that full blast of narcissistic rage on your DH, he doesn’t realise how a narcissistic person operates and he’s still trying to explain his mother’s behaviour in terms of how a ‘normal’ person would act abnormally. It isn’t like this at all, and you’ve had a glimpse of it yourself. Couple this with the FOG that your DH is suffering, he’s in a difficult place at the moment.

There are many resources on the internet about narcissism, and I’d urge you to get him to look at them and explain to himself his mother’s behaviour to him and to you. He’s going to have a hard time but this is the only route that I can see for him to realise just what his mother is really like. And how he can defend himself, and you and your son against this evil manipulative scheming person.

I may be stating the obvious but it's WEIRD for a mother to want to spend lots of exclusive time with her adult son. I do a few things with my boys (adults) now and again but its usually pure chance - or, even, necessity eg buying a present/planning a party. I do have similar interests to one ds and we sometimes pursue those interests together, but it's rare. We certainly meet for a coffee now and then - you know, a short time together - not often - but, generally, we meet when other people are present. None of my boys are married or in serious relationships - once they are I doubt I'd spend much time with them alone, certainly not regular 'dates'.