feelings on porn

[lollypop77]

Just wanted other peoples opinions on if they are ok with there partners/husbands watching porn regular ..do you get worried or wonder why they have the need to ??

I don't need to verify consent for the porn I watch because I don't watch porn. Why not ask yourself what you can do to verify consent placid as you are the one that wants to watch it.

I haven't read a lot about the sex industry and do not claim to be an expert. I see most of the anti porn comments here have focused on the extreme negatives ( which make me shudder in horror and want to do ALL in my power to avoid) . Hence my request to Fairnuff about what would satisfy her re ensuring consent.

but that's like asking a vegetarian what level of livestock welfare would be sufficoent for them to eat meat - there isn't one!

I see most of the anti porn comments here have focused on the extreme negatives

Not really. We have talked about 'couples sex' which many people watch thinking it's just harmless 'fun', without realising that they may be watching rape.

It doesn't have to be extreme and/or violent to be rape/abuse. You can easily imagine the boyfriend telling the woman to make it look good or she will have to do it again, for example, when she doesn't want to do it at all.

Or, of course, the uploading of sex videos without the woman's consent. It even has a name - revenge porn. How would you know? You just assume the people in the porn you watch have consented.

( which make me shudder in horror and want to do ALL in my power to avoid)

Except press the 'off' button

Fairenuff and I are 100% guaranteed not to be watching rape, drugged sex, coerced sex, painful sex, people having sex with others they don't fancy, people having sex outside of their sexuality etc etc because we aren't watching porn.

But we don't have to draft you a 12 page consent document that you can feel happy lets you watch porn with a clear conscience. You can draft your own if that helps you.

Somehow I keep thinking about this debate.

and while the emotive language and some of the extremes are irritating, I think it has to be faced that you can make a lot of effort to source ethical stuff, but yes, there is that chance that it's not, at least until a reliable kitemark is introduced.

so yeah, the stuff that my husband watches, there is that chance it's got horrible origins. I'm afraid that I'm not going to ask him to stop watching, and we're still going to try to find the better-quality stuff, but in the end I don't think you can ignore that chance (hopefully small) that coercion has been involved.

Some how it feels like a bit of a defeat to admit that, but I do think it has to be faced.

Meer, I'm really glad that you're giving this some thought now.

Placid, if you knew the two women you watched did not fancy each other and were both otherwise heterosexual, how would you feel about what you watched?

I think there are lots of very sensible comments here especially regarding porn that is made using coercion, threats, violence etc. For those who might enjoy consensual, dare I say tasteful films then Frolicme.com is well made and stylish.

thanks, xmusican

ABDC: there are people who stopped eating meat because of their concerns regarding animal welfare, who now do eat meat when they know that it has been produced ethically. They will avoid meat when they can't be sure (eg eating in a works canteen or cheap chain restaurant) but they don't have a problem with eating meat. They just don't want to support unethical meat farming practices. And there are people who think that eating meat is completely and utterly wrong, no matter what, and want to prevent everyone else from eating meat, no matter how safe and contented the meat animals were before being killled and eaten.
But the improvements in animal welfare, the increase in the number of places that now serve (eg) only free range eggs, was brought about by consumers demanding ethical practice and supporting ethical producers, not by prohibitions.

And now there's going to be a lot of deflective squealing about 'how dare you compare women to farm animals, waa waa' which kind of reinforces the point that a percentage of anti-porn people can't do metaphor, let alone having very limited imaginations coupled with a desire to stamp out imagination in others.

Yeah, it wasn't the best analogy!

But if I was talking to someone who was veggie cos they thought eating meat was wrong (whether or not they were actively campaigning for others to also stop eating meat), I wouldn't persistently ask them for details of the conditions they would find acceptable for folks to eat meat.

Fairnuff

So what you're saying is that in the absence of total and absolutely incontroviable evidence to the contrary (which you fail to specify) we should assume that all PIV could, COULD be rape.

Is that a fair summation?

Sorry (for the fellow lawyers) I meant incontrovertible

That's not what she said.

As Meer has noted, when buying a porn DVD or downloading porn from the internet, you don't know whether any of the participants are being raped/assaulted, are in pain, are drugged, are unaware that a private film has been uploaded etc. Maybe it's one in ten films, or one in a hundred, or one in a thousand where one of those things is true. But you don't know if that's the one you are watching.

Surely you understand the point, even if you think it only happens one in a million times?

The point is nobody needs porn, or to pay for sex. It bypasses all the social skills required to enable healthy relationships and thereby subverts it. It leaves in its wake pain, addiction, rape, abuse and slaughter.

Why bother, why risk human dignity for the sake of a quick orgasm?

Very well put DaughterDilemma.

I will try to remember your phrasing for future arguments.

DaughterDilemma
What's wrong with a quick orgasm?

In terms of suggestions.. Please add yours..

1. PROHIBITION (legislate to ban and destroy it)

2. ABSTINENCE (Grudgingly accept it is out there and cannot be "uninvented" but just say No)

3. GRASSROOTS (Make it less and less socially acceptable)

4. MAKE IT SAFER (Accept that for many, visual stimulation is a part of their pleasure and don't think there's anything wrong with a quick orgasm but would want to do ALL we can to PREVENT abuse, coercion, rape, injury, pain, suffering, regret etc etc)

5. DO NOTHING

I am firmly for 4 and a bit of 3.

Fairnuff, Justtherightbullets, ABlandandDeadlyCourtesy please do correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting 2 and a bit of 3.

Also Fairnuff (and sorry for getting all Jeremy Paxman to your Michael Howard) but you have repeatedly refused to the answer the question "What WOULD satisfy you that the acts engaged in were performed by a mature adult with their full consent?"

My suspicion is that your honest answer to this question is a resounding NOTHING.

But I want to check if I'm correct? Am I correct???

The trouble with saying 'just don't do it' or "you don't need to do it" is that it doesn't work.

Fairnuff
ABDC answered for you previously but I would really really like to hear from you directly...

Is the essence of your opposition to porn basically that in the absence of incontrovertible evidence of consent all depictions of "PIV" acts made for visual arousal could, COULD be rape?

Is this why you have repeatedly told moderate and occasional viewers of mild porn that they "get their jollies from watching women get raped"?

DaughterDilemma - you see, that's the problem with the 'anti-porn' camp in a nutshell - the insistence that everyone should aspire to a 'healthy relationship' ie commitment and monogamy, which not eveyrone wants. Given the disastrous mess that so many long term relationships end up in (violence, financial abuse, coercive control etc), making sex work and porn safe and consensual and removing the stigma from them would actually make the world a much better place.

Given the disastrous mess that so many long term relationships end up in (violence, financial abuse, coercive control etc), making sex work and porn safe and consensual and removing the stigma from them would actually make the world a much better place.

In an ideal world SGB that would be great but currently the sex industry is full of violence, financial abuse, coercive control, etc. just as much as some relationships are.

The price being paid for sexual liberty is far too high.

You can have a non monogamous relationship without supporting sex industries.