Decision made

[adorably2014]

I posted here in June. I can't seem to be able to link to my old thread. After a summer of ups and downs I have decided I don't want to be married to my husband anymore. He has no idea and now the children are at school again I have more time to plan.

My fear is that because what is happening is always in private, how can I possibly document all this and be believed in the divorce courts? For example this summer he had bought me two really expensive pieces of jewellery which he presented to me in front of the children as a kind of I love you gift, only for 5 days later to do the stuff that has made me decide to leave. So he will easily seem like the wronged man with a gold digger wife. I am also concerned what to say to the children when a split is initiated. I don't want them to know exactly as it would be too awful for them but then again is it going to be possible to protect from everything? I also worry that if I talk about what has been going on then my H could potentially be in trouble which I don't want, selfishly I just don't want to have to live with it anymore.

For the moment I am focusing on my course and work experience where I asked if there was possible paid employment. My boss said they were very busy and would probably have two projects I could help with in October and be paid for. I hope it materialises. In the meantime I am putting as much money as possible into my own account. My H has not got access to it but knows the account details. Is it OK do you think or should I set sth he knows nothing about. For choosing a solicitor is it best to take a WA solicitor or one of my own? I reckon my H will get someone really good and expensive so I need to make sure I have someone very very good.

I tried to find a counsellor before the school holidays but it wasn't that easy. I also found that talking about all the stuff in a way made me freeze and reflect so much that I couldn't act if that makes sense. I think when things are over I will then hopefully find the space to talk ... So for now I am trying to get on with practical stuff like following advice on getting paperwork together before contacting solicitors. My H has loads of paperwork. I know because I sometimes do his filing. There are share certificates, pension stuff etc... Do I need to copy everything? If so,does it need to be recent or can I take copies now even if I don't start anything in 6 months' time.

Sorry I sound like such a cold calculating b here. I am mostly terrified of putting the children through such an upheaval but then I keep reminding myself our eldest saw something was wrong with me during the holiday and didn't really believe the explanation that 'mummy is tired'.

Anyway apart from my few questions not sure entirely why I am posting, for support I guess and to update on previous thread after this long gap.

I will try and give a more considered response when I have more time, but adorably, read the responses! read them again, then probably read them for a third time. As I said, you are behaving, acting, and coping with so much dignity and so little self pity! Witness the loveliness of MN coming out to confirm as much!

One of my friends has an analogy she uses, which I thnk is ok to share here: if you've got a broken arm, it hurts. Someone coming along and pointing out that the person in the next bed has had their arm amputated, and are therefore worse off than you, doesn't stop your arm hurting for a minute. An extraordinarily wise woman, ash beckham (I would urge you to search her out on ted talks) says, hard is hard. My hard doesn't have to be your hard, your hard can be easier than my hard, but hard is still damn hard..

I hope it helps you to know you've support here. Big love, coz however unmumsnetty it is, sometimes it's needed.

Hi adorably,I don't have your money but I do have a husband who makes me feel very secure and surprises me all the time with his gentleness and steadfastness. It's swings and roundabouts. I am the child of an abusive relationship. My mother behaved with dignity, as you do. She was my strong parent. This is my second marriage. My first husband was one to get away from (I didn't have children with him). Continue as you are going. In a messy situation it's good to have one clear, dignified person. In Al-anon they say to maintain your standards and not to collude with the alcoholic. There is something seriously wrong with your husband. Disengage. Disengage materially, intellectually and emotionally. Don't respond in despair or self doubt, respond with dignity and quiet delight in how lovely you are- by this I mean start listening to your voice in your head, not his. The weak always bully and intimidate but the greatest fear is within them. As regards your new women friends, don't over share, we all have our secrets and really people want to be listened to and aren't too worried about listening to us. Counsellors will listen properly, so pass that private burden to them and try to leave as much of it in their safe hands as possible.

Another one de lurking to say i have read your story and been bowled over by your dignity, given all that you have endured. You are one classy lady. Stay strong. One day, very soon,, you will feel true inner peace. Big hugs to you and your children.

Adorably I've also been a lurker, but just de-lurking to say this.

"I can't complain, because other people have it worse."
This is such a common thing to hear, not just hear but everywhere. (Although I think it's more common for women to say it to ourselves, than it is for men. Hmm.)

If that statement is true though, then the reverse must also be true.
"I can't celebrate because other people have it better".
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

There are some people who you meet in life who will push this "can't complain" mantra at you, and try to "top" you. You know the kind. If you dinged your car bumper when parking, they had a multi-car pile-up. If you waited 20 minutes for a bus, they waited two hours. AND it was raining.

Feel free to tell these people to do one

Have had a truly horrendous day health wise, but thanks very much for the comments and kind words, I'm really touched.

Across you may be right about the childcare.

tulipbulbs it's good to hear from a child's perspective. I worry very much how the DCs will be affected by all this, now and later. That was quite clumsy the way I mentioned money. I would gladly have swapped it for a nice husband like yours. I just meant that if he had controlled the money more than he did I would be in an even more difficult position now. I'm not tempted to over share, I find it difficult enough deciding where to start with 'safe' ears.

Otherwise guess I don't see it as dignity as much as saving my skin, or rather my head. My relationship with my mother has probably not taught me much but it's shown me there are people you just can't reason with. I didn't think h was one of those but I was wrong. He didn't engage in endless guilt-tripping conversations like her, he said sorry but then he dismissed me as silly or that it was just fun and fine, we're married and all that. I naively thought we could talk and despite everything I did want to fix things but the way he did what he did in August made me realise there was no way back, I don't think there's any point reasoning with that, I gave up at that point, it's like something snapped. Anyway I'm still in shock about everything that's happened since then really and the speed things have gone tbh

Sorry you've been unwell. Not clumsy at all re. money, I meant just be glad for the good things. I mentioned my husband because sometimes it seems impossible that there are good men and good marriages and I imagine that will definitely be a future choice for you. (probably scares your husband, he sounds like he has/had a sense of ownership).
Your DCs will be fine, they have one strong parent to lean on. My mother never got out. It wasn't the done thing and I think she was very (physically) in love with my father. Alternatively, by making your home healthy, you are giving your children a safe place to land. The earlier it ends the better for the children. They do pick up on atmospheres, but, once you make them feel safe, they will be fine.
I saw one close family member who had a pretty poor (arrogant sod) husband. When he finally left for OW. She was fantastic. She never slagged him off to her children - she enabled them to salvage whatever relationship they could with him. They grew up and saw who their father was (not much) and admired her all the more for who she was. She was erudite (like you) and they were very proud of her.

August seems to have been your point of no return. Any marriage that I've seen break down (including mine), seems to dither until something makes it untenable and there's no going back. There's speed now, but, once it's done, you'll have loads of time to mull over what happened. The day is coming when you'll be indifferent and bored when you think/ hear of him.

Hope you're feeling better.

Your eyes are opening wider and wider. You are seeing so much more about your stbx. And now, although it may hurt for a bit, you are able to process your new knowledge in a healthy way, realizing it is HIM, not you. That you are right and he is wrong in the feelings about his behaviour and what is 'normal' in a marriage. Well done, you!

You may still have a wobble or two in the future, but you have a strong foundation.

Well, nisi was granted so the worst didn't happen. Good news and sense of relief that that bit is out f the way despite everything. Feels very weird for many reasons. There are more court dates scheduled now too.

I haven't been very well though, the panic attacks are continuing and I fainted one morning. I didn't hurt myself but it was very scary. Mornings after drop offs are worse especially when I go on public transport after but generally I've had more and at different times than before. Vicious circle because I get even more apprehensive especially as I tend to feel much worse in busy places. Utterly draining

The children and I are going to stay at someone's house out of town (friend who said about H's behaviour abroad & has been really supportive since she realised I didn't know) for a few days so I hope the change of scenery will help. I've talked to my aunt about her visiting too. I feel I really need (nice) people round me at the moment.

The emails to me stopped and I have had no comm from h at all since the order was broken thankfully. It's giving me some mental space. However, an email from my mil to my mother (which I haven't even seen!) has just caused me a lot of grief, some self-inflicted probably as I got in an argument with my mother on the phone which was pointless. I just feel so manipulated still really, yet I don't know how to handle it. It's the last thing I need but I never really seem to handle it right.

I've been following your thread for a while and hoping that things were progressing without too many bumps. Ending a marriage is not really a matter for celebration as it's so hard on everyone involved, but well done to you on getting through to decree nisi stage.

It's good to hear you're going to stay with a friend for a little while. Change of scene can really help sometimes, and I hope it is a less busy place so you won't be subject to so many panic attacks. Since they've been getting worse, have you been to your GP to see about adjusting medication? It's like some people say on here about the oxygen masks on airplanes - adjust yours first. It'll be easier to help your children if you've taken care of yourself.

Like Across says, don't worry if sometimes you have wobbles like this MIL e-mail and your argument with your mom. They're minor in the grand scheme of things. Try to put it out of your mind and enjoy your trip out of town.

Thanks TheMShip Had tests after the fainting. I have no meds to take. GP said she could prescribe something to see if it helps but I feel quite scared at the idea of it so haven't taken up yet. You're right with oxygen masks but these panic attacks haven't yet happened when they're with me weirdly, it's when I'm on my own but in crowds , sometimes it spirals completely out of control, sometimes I manage to override it.
Couple of last weekends with the children have been quite ok actually. Made a conscious effort to do nice little projects/outings and it's been better. Certainly better than shitty half term.

Don't know if the email is minor, maybe it is. I think h could be behind it to be honest because mil and my mother only ever exchanged Xmas cards. I guess i feel very let down by my mother. I probably don't expect support from her at this stage but if the email was written at H's instigation and if she replies behind my back (lots of ifs, of course as I don't know what it's about exactly but sounded more than just two mothers commiserating + email was sent day after nisi granted) then I worry what she would say. If she sides with h as if he is the wronged party, then it's something more than just not supporting, isn't it? I don't know, I just don't know. I feel quite upset but maybe it's nothing, maybe it's something. I feel like I'm possibly being manipulated by everyone, like I'm nothing in all this. Guess it's just I couldn't see myself doing that to my children.

I had PTSD + panic attacks when I was young & it's really horrible, so I entirely sympathise. I got on top of them quite quickly - it is possible. I read up on the biochemistry of them, which no doubt you've done already, and the best techniques for dealing with them. I used breathing techniques and calming techniques. They really worked. I learnt how to meditate, and as soon as I started feeling panicky I'd get myself in the 'zone'. For me it was the same situations as you - alone and in crowds.

You can find books and CDs on Amazon to help overcome then. (Put anxiety/ panic attacks into the Amazon search). People recommend something called [http://www.psychiatrycentre.co.uk/our-services/supportive-therapies/emdr-therapy/?gclid=CMOTo6Gg1cQCFWGL2wodu4UArg EMDR] on here, but I've never tried it so I can't vouch for it.

I would warn you about anti-anxiety drugs/antidepressants - they can make your anxiety worse in the first few weeks until they kick in, and with some the additional anxiety doesn't go away. As you've got children you may not have the option of sitting out the unpleasant side-effects until they kick in. Personally, if I was doing it again I wouldn't take medication because it caused additional problems that I didn't have, without solving the ones I did.

Apols for the link fail:

EMDR

This is just another way that your H is trying to isolate you. He's now manipulating both his and your mothers. If she would side with your H in this, then you don't need her in your life, at least not for now. If you feel in the least that she may be a conduit of information back to H, I'd be very careful of what I say to her. I know it's hard to realize this, but remember that you do NOT need your mother's approval to be happy.

Adorably, if the panic attacks are getting worse, there is nothing wrong with seeking help, or even medication, for the short term. Please see your GP, or talk to the counselor specifically about them. Panic attacks usually don't just magically disappear on their own. The solution may be as simple as having a plan, like carrying the non-mol order in your purse and telling yourself that you will brandish it in his face if he approaches you. Or the solution may be in counseling and/or meds.

You have a lot going on in your life, please, please don't be afraid of getting help wherever you can. Be it your aunt, your doctor, or your counselor. Remember that your placement is very important to your future. It's worth doing whatever you need to in order to keep up with it.

Time will move forward. Right now you're in the middle of the shit pond. But you WILL eventually get to the other side.

You're right with oxygen masks but these panic attacks haven't yet happened when they're with me weirdly, it's when I'm on my own but in crowds , sometimes it spirals completely out of control, sometimes I manage to override it.

I meant the comment more as a general thing. If you can get well enough to reduce your panic attacks, you'll have more energy and willpower to focus on your children. It's completely up to you, of course, but I will say that anecdotally, medication can be very good for anxiety and panic. My DH has gone through periods of heavy stress which bring on anxiety attacks (I am not sure of the technical differences between anxiety and panic, but your GP will know), and has had prescriptions for them. His prescriptions were the sort where you take a pill when you feel an attack coming on, and it heads it off or makes it easier to get through without passing out. The fact that he didn't dread having a bad attack seemed to make the frequency go down drastically. Maybe something like that, where you are in control over whether you take it or not, would be useful for you?

Just occurred to me now, these attacks only happen when you're on your own. I wonder if in some ways it's safer emotionally to let go on your own in a crowd of strangers. In any case, please do go back to your doctor, you could get hurt if you faint in a dangerous place.

Maybe take a step back from your mother for a little while. If she's a more or less normal person, she'll come around to supporting you eventually, and I doubt she would support her soon to be ex-son-in-law over her own child. Lean on people you know you can trust for now, and take care of yourself.

I've no doubt your husband is behind the email from MIL to your mum. He failed at confronting you in the street, now he's trying to tighten the noose by drawing your mother into his matrix. From what you have said here she may be all too happy to join him.

I think you might need to prepare to block her for a while. You can't control your mum, you can't expect her to be supportive or loyal. If she wants to talk to MIL she will and I can only imagine how batty and twisted what she might say would be. All you can expect from her is manipulation, undermining and even outright betrayal.

If she chooses to side with the axis of evil, there's no point even arguing with her, there not a thing you can do but ignore the lot of them.

With a bit of luck it won't come to that, and it will all die down.

And by the way, you're not dealing with everything wrong, you're dealing with everything right. You've done amazingly well through all of this, I honestly don't think anyone could have dealt with it better.

xpost with AcrossthePond - quite.

There is no pill that stops panic attacks MShip - perhaps the doctor told your husband there was and he believed them so they worked. There are only beta-blockers, benzodiazepines and antidepressants - some of the latter work for some people with anxiety but not for everyone.

Yes, he was using lorazepam, which is a benzodiazepine like you said. DH's attacks were mild in comparison to what's described here and he did report significant improvement taking the pills reactively. YMMV.

Oh, and it may well have been placebo effect :) I completely agree with you there, twinkle!

You know, my DS2 took a lingual benzodiazepine for his panic attacks. When he felt one coming on (he had extremely bad panic attacks) the medication went on his tongue and he felt the effect in about 3-5 minutes. But it only lasted about 15-20 minutes. That was long enough for him to calm down and enact his 'panic plan' and then he would handle it with the tools he learnt.

So, I wouldn't say it 'prevented' the attack, but it certainly stopped it from escalating quickly.

It's been referred to as panic attacks by doctor. I don't know if it's different from anxiety attacks. I wasn't a particularly anxious person as such by nature though without realising there were things that made me stressed in the past two years or so but stressed in a 'I don't like this/consciously stressed' way. I used to do lots of Pilates/yoga and I try breathing and pausing.
If I'm sitting down I seem to be better at coping with the attack. If I'm standing up I find it much harder. It's just typical I guess of any panic attack as in I feel I'm going to die, really hot, heart racing,urge to get out of wherever I am. Sometimes I manage to stay but I've also got out many times recently and then it usually calms down, except that's when I got out that I fainted last week. The annoying thing with the fainting was that the day before I felt quite happy as I'd had none so thought it was getting better.

The attacks are draining but I am scared of side effects of meds. GP was suggesting Seroxat because I also don't sleep well/same nightmare every time. I'm not sure how functioning I would be on that so ruled it out. Maybe she was looking at the overall picture as she didn't suggest the one you mention.

I haven't looked at meditation by itself or EMDR. I think Rape Crisis mentioned EMDR to me. Thanks for suggesting Twinklestein

I can't say what the direct trigger is Across. They've definitely got worse since the order was broken but I don't think I particularly think about bumping into him again when the attacks start. I have seen the counsellor but I can't expect miracles really esp as so much is on going.

You might up on the biology of panic attacks because you're not going to die, it helps to know that definitively. The anxiety is making your heart race, you're over-breathing 'hyperventilating', you're taking in gulps of oxygen which is converted to carbon dioxide, and you end up with too much carbon dioxide. That's responsible for the feeling that you can't breathe, the spaced out feeling, and also feel pins and needles or tingling in your hands and feet.

Once you realise that however you feel physically - heart racing, breathless etc; however you feel emotionally - scared, panicky, traumatised - your life is not even slightly in danger, indeed in the general scheme of things you're not actually that ill - that's half the battle. Once you fully grasp that the panic loses its hold.

The next thing is to get a CD or book, and learn a coping strategy. They may have like a 5 point plan which you memorise and run every time you get one, and it helps calm you down. It's good to also do breathing exercises to train your breathing, because you can use those when you have an attack.

I can't speak for EMDR because I've never done it, but I was taught breathing exercises and coping strategies that helped me conquer them.
I had tapes I listened to (this was in the days before CDs!) with relaxing music and tapes with a panic attack plan that I used to take everywhere with me.

And for the time being just avoid things that might set you off. For me it was very full tubes, buses and busy London streets - I would feel claustrophobic & overwhelmed and like I couldn't breathe.

I tried diazepam, lorazepam (benzodiazepines), propranolol (beta blocker), Amitriptyline (AD), Prozac, Citalopram and later Sertraline (AD SSRIS) None of them worked.

However, you should do what you feel is right for you, I don't want to put you off drugs because they do work for some people.

Most importantly though do not let a GP prescribe you ADs because they have very little mental health training. You should only accept ADs from a psychiatrist. (I have had this drummed into me by a relation who is a psychiatrist themselves). In your position, I would ask your GP for referral to one assessment by a psychiatrist - I think you need to know if you have PTSD and you can discuss the panic attacks. They will then recommend ADs and/or psychotherapy as well. If you have private health insurance that would massively help. You could go to someone at one of the Priory hospitals (I think you're in London no?) and they're very nice there. They also do daycare classes where you could learn to deal with the panic attacks.

Remember also that you can go to SARC (Sexual Assault Referral Centre) at any point for current or past sexual abuse, and they have excellent counsellors. Potentially you could talk to a psychiatrist there

For me, nothing worked as well as getting to the bottom of the traumas that were causing the attacks, reducing overall anxiety and learning good coping strategies.

Bon courage

You might read up ^^ first sentence.

Thank you so much. Twinklestein - didn't realise there was a bunny smiley for Easter- I have a referral through RC. I have seen a private counsellor twice too now. I think I need peace to work through all the issues because I can see they are many layers of different ones but the ongoing divorce is making that pretty difficult. I will try self-help and look for classes too. I'm pretty wary of drugs because I wouldn't want them to start affecting how functioning I am (children, producing work etc) which could cause all sorts of trouble. I have asked my tutor and she's letting me come a bit late so I can avoid rush hours. I haven't asked at work because I've missed days already and don't want to appear utterly unprofessional.

As for the email -
My mother called to inform me of it and ask if it was ok to respond in our language (she understands English pretty well but can't write it that confidently).

Phone communication with her is normally limited to the weather, children, general bland stuff that is unlikely to stir trouble. I call out of duty rather than anything else. They rarely call and when they do it is because I forgot the weekly call and I get a reminder. The kids like skyping, especially with their grandfather. Since divorce has started, things have been more strained and I haven't kept them informed of developments step by step because I feel disapproval. I can't say what I think or how I feel because the retort is that if only I tried it would get better, surely I should give things one last shot. So I keep evasive when there are questions. They know about 'violence', orders, the fact the process is slow and on going but that's about it. My mother is livid we are not coming to visit, but won't visit herself. I have invited them again recently (probably because I know they won't come anyway, so completely hypocritical but the door is officially open) but still she is furious and has told me so. She tends to do this on emails herself.

Her call was therefore very odd, and I lost it when she asked me if she could respond in our language but refused to tell me what it was about except that she would reply because my behaviour was appalling. I could only work out that she now knew about the nisi and something about me not letting h see the children. That, the timing and the fact the hearing in fact went pretty badly for h (costs to pay) made me think he was behind it. He knows we don't get on.
I told her she needed to be careful because the process was on going and if she did the wrong thing it could be harmful for me, and they were things h wasn't supposed to be doing and if he was doing any of them then I needed to know but she didn't budge. She was like, this email was addressed to me I'm going to write what I bloody well like. Complete power trip really.

I ended up saying that if she did something that turned out to be wrong then I would have to cut ties. I guess it's an empty threat though because I don't know what the email was, what she's going to say or whether she's even going to respond, and in fact feel totally unable to go no contact. She turned round and accused me of emotional blackmail which is normally her forte. I felt like a wayward 15 year old. It was not good at all. My (useless) father called back later to check I was ok but justified her behaviour, I had upset her, and I needed to understand how upsetting it was for them being so far. I repeated what I said to her about not compromising my position or writing something silly because things were difficult enough as they were. And really the best thing would be for them to forward the email to me so it can go to my solicitor if need be. But I've heard nothing.

Maybe I'm catastrophising but I just think the last thing I need is other people meddling. In my head, I think if the children were mentioned in the email then someone is up to no good on that front. I just wonder whether somehow she's going to write a letter to back up whatever she's been asked to and obviously I worry. All I can do is ignore or keep worrying though as I have proof of nothing whatsoever. I also feel really silly as I let her back me into a corner in a way.

I guess I understand using one's native language if a person feels they won't be able to get their message across in English. Do you have anyone around you who speaks your language whom you trust to read it first to see if it's really something you need to read?

No matter what, I think you're pretty well prepared. You know she doesn't approve so you know it's likely that this email will be critical. But do you really, honestly even need to read it at all? Would there even be information in it that is necessary for you to know? Even if your stbx has been in contact, or if his mother has, I think it's highly unlikely that your stbx would have given out any details of his plans or strategies for the upcoming hearings. You know he lies about things, but do you really need to know what his lies are?

I think seeing a counselor is a very good idea. It gives you a 'sounding board' and someone to vent to. And someone who understands coping techniques and can help you find the ones that work for you best. I also 2nd the advice to get any medications through a psychiatrist.