Decision made

[adorably2014]

I posted here in June. I can't seem to be able to link to my old thread. After a summer of ups and downs I have decided I don't want to be married to my husband anymore. He has no idea and now the children are at school again I have more time to plan.

My fear is that because what is happening is always in private, how can I possibly document all this and be believed in the divorce courts? For example this summer he had bought me two really expensive pieces of jewellery which he presented to me in front of the children as a kind of I love you gift, only for 5 days later to do the stuff that has made me decide to leave. So he will easily seem like the wronged man with a gold digger wife. I am also concerned what to say to the children when a split is initiated. I don't want them to know exactly as it would be too awful for them but then again is it going to be possible to protect from everything? I also worry that if I talk about what has been going on then my H could potentially be in trouble which I don't want, selfishly I just don't want to have to live with it anymore.

For the moment I am focusing on my course and work experience where I asked if there was possible paid employment. My boss said they were very busy and would probably have two projects I could help with in October and be paid for. I hope it materialises. In the meantime I am putting as much money as possible into my own account. My H has not got access to it but knows the account details. Is it OK do you think or should I set sth he knows nothing about. For choosing a solicitor is it best to take a WA solicitor or one of my own? I reckon my H will get someone really good and expensive so I need to make sure I have someone very very good.

I tried to find a counsellor before the school holidays but it wasn't that easy. I also found that talking about all the stuff in a way made me freeze and reflect so much that I couldn't act if that makes sense. I think when things are over I will then hopefully find the space to talk ... So for now I am trying to get on with practical stuff like following advice on getting paperwork together before contacting solicitors. My H has loads of paperwork. I know because I sometimes do his filing. There are share certificates, pension stuff etc... Do I need to copy everything? If so,does it need to be recent or can I take copies now even if I don't start anything in 6 months' time.

Sorry I sound like such a cold calculating b here. I am mostly terrified of putting the children through such an upheaval but then I keep reminding myself our eldest saw something was wrong with me during the holiday and didn't really believe the explanation that 'mummy is tired'.

Anyway apart from my few questions not sure entirely why I am posting, for support I guess and to update on previous thread after this long gap.

Just remember, these are still early days. His behaviour is truly awful but he is still thinking he can manipulate you back under his control - the kids are just the latest weapon.
Perhaps time for a nicely worded letter from your solicitor to remind him that this kind of shit is unacceptable and will result in withheld contact for the emotional welfare of the children.

No, no, no! You should NOT have stayed! I beg you, don't think that for even one milli-second!

As far as his 10-5 fatherhood, isn't that what he did in the past? It never struck me that he was all that involved, more the 'Nanny, bring the kiddies to the drawing room for 15 minutes to see Papa' type of father. So as much as he 'wanted' more time, the reality of the 'laughter and tears' of parenting small children was more than he could handle. He can't tell them that, so he must find a way to blame YOU. It's disgusting but saying 'seeing you makes me sad' plays right into his plans, really, because it 1-justifies not spending more time with them and 2- blames that on you (and them for looking like you). He's really a piece of work, isn't he?

Realize also, that eventually his guilting, blame-setting, manipulative ways would have begun to spill over to your DCs as they got older and became defiant, as all children do, especially in the teen years. Would you really have wanted them to be manipulated into guilt for 'upsetting their father' because they didn't do what he wanted, go to Uni where he wanted, even marry who he wanted? Heaven forbid! And it would have happened if you hadn't declared your independence, because they would have seen you being manipulated and thought 'well, that's just the way it's supposed to be'. You are saving them from that because you will show them that he does not have the right to do that to them, because you will not allow him to do that to you! It's already beginning with the 'seeing you makes me sad' bullshit, don't let it take on a life of its own!

Remember that this is still new. Things will happen to make you doubt yourself. Things will happen to throw you for a loop. Just remember that you are much stronger and wiser than you know. You KNOW what is right, he just still has the power to make you doubt yourself, especially when he involves the children. Eventually, he will either stop because he sees that it's not accomplishing what he wants it to (getting you back) or because a judge orders him to shut the hell up. Well, maybe not those exact words, but I know that family court judges do NOT look kindly on parents who use children to their own ends!

If you feel it necessary, talk to your solicitor about counseling for the children. I'm sure they have experience and probably a list of good counselors. If it were me, I'd probably wait a bit (as long as things don't get too bad) and see if the children are able to work this through with a little help from you. Being rushed into counseling may make this appear to be a bigger deal than it needs to be in their minds. It may help you, however, to talk to someone to help you make that decision or to recognize when they do need help in dealing with things.

His lack of conscience is horrifying. Lying to and manipulating his children is perfectly ok in his moral universe.

Progress would be that he turned into a decent person, that he developed ethics, honesty, compassion, that he behaved honourably to his children.

Clearly that's never going to happen, and without it I don't think you can expect progress with regard to contact with the children.

Staying with him would not have saved your children and it would have destroyed you - I think you should congratulate yourself for having got your children away from this man as soon as you could. The less time he spends with them the better.

When they're older they will see him for what he is.

Thank you all. Don't know what I would do without this board. My heart sank when I heard DC but then I thought maybe I was being too sensitive. Glad that I'm not and that you agree it was a disgusting thing to say to them. I never thought he could even carry off saying such crap. I might wait and see if he rings them this week instead of always asking them if they want to call him.

And yes I will wait to see if more things come out before taking the children to see someone. I might mention it to my GP too as I'm due to see her soon.

He seems to have been busy on all fronts since appointing his new solicitor, and is clearly intending to not give things a rest at the minute. My solicitor wasn't happy at all with what was going on, and a tad concerned too when I spoke to her earlier.

At least my laptop is officially bug free so the password thing was a one off attempt and I wasn't being spied on thank goodness.

there are no depths he won't sink to are there - making the kids feel bad about what they look like in order to get to you .

try not to worry about showing the kids that you are sad sometimes, but equally it is good that they see you holding it together, there is a balance between them knowing that you are sad too (and thus it is ok for them to be sad) but them also feeling safe because you are normal mummy and just getting on with things as usual.

if they aren't fussed about talking to him or seeing him sometimes then don't push too hard, they need to be allowed to have their own feelings about this. He won't like it if they don't want to know sometimes, but you don't want to teach them that they always have to do what he wants so as to please him/not upset him - that's a pattern you are trying to get away from. That's why you left.

You are doing really well, and every day you get through is one day further away from everything you had to put up with, and one day stronger

acharm Yes, I do worry about that and maybe I should think about making sure the children have their own space to discuss it with someone who isn't involved.
I have this façade that everything is fine with other people (except my aunt) and with the children I've cracked up but I see it as weakness and felt terrible when it happened.

I'm making more of an effort than before even to organise play dates etc so their social lives haven't changed too much apart from not seeing their cousins on a regular basis as SIL usually came to us in the week. We used to have a full house quite often so them having friends round is really helpful. I suppose time will tell and I'm probably being impatient and anxious more than necessary. Hope you're good btw. Will PM you soon.

twinklestein lack of conscience is exactly that and not just with the kids.

To be honest though it seems to rather help him at the moment. Still as it's unlikely he'll want his dirty linen washed in court it hopefully shouldn't change things for me for now so I mustn't get dispirited, it's not like he was going to admit doing anything in the first place. But yes,
I married a nasty piece of work who's making sure he's looking after himself, that's for sure.

I think you are doing just fine as you are, and the children will be fine too, so try not to over-think it; easier said than done I know, your poor head must be spinning with trying to cover all the bases all the time.

As to explaining "why" NettleTea is right, just saying "I don't know" is ok, especially when it's better than explaining what you do know (that he is selfish, isn't thinking about them but himself, they are better off without him), as they just don't need to know any of that. They will, sadly, almost certainly learn that for themselves as they grow up, but it is much better for them to learn from their own experience what a piece of work he is, rather than by you telling them. Apart from anything else they will then more easily understand why you had to leave.

And it is not weak cracking up lovely, you have coped astonishingly well with very little RL support, it is amazing that you haven't lost it more. Now the immediate threat is past and you feel a little more safe (I know that is relative) it is likely that you will lose it a little more often, simply because you can. And that's not a bad thing - ideally not in front of the kids too often of course - but you do need to let go of some of the stress you must be carrying or you will become exhausted with the pressure of it all.

In the past when I felt like I might explode/implode with everything that was going round and round in my head, I sometimes dealt with it (I'm no good talking to other people, I do the "I'm fine façade" too) by writing angry letters to whoever (never intended to be sent). I covered pages and pages sometimes, and I often ended up shouting at the walls or crying or both. Always when I was on my own with no one to listen. I felt very foolish and fake the first time (it was a technique recommended by a counsellor) but I found it really helped to release built-up tension so I could face the day. Might be worth a try?

Oh and I married a nasty piece of work - bloody fantastic to see you say that, especially without you feeling the need to add that it was probably your fault. So good to see this progress!!!! Keep going just like that .

We are fine by the way, no news yet, don't worry about PM I know you've got a lot going on .

YY to everything charm said!

I'd back off encouraging the children to call or visit him. Let them guide you. Children have very good self-protection instincts and usually won't put themselves in hurtful situations on their own. If they say they want to talk to him or see him, then take the steps to help them do that. Otherwise, leave well enough alone. If they wonder why Daddy doesn't call or see them, as NettleTea suggests, just say "I don't know, Darling" and distract them with something else.

Now that you've fully realized that he's looking out for himself, you just be sure that you are doing the same for yourself. Anything he asks or suggests should be met with a heavy dose of "What's in it for me?". No snap decisions if he pressures you (and he will). Always take time to think 5 steps ahead. This is a game of chess you are playing, not checkers (I think you call it 'draughts'). Remember the phrase "I'll have to think about that". If he pressures you with "I have to know NOW", rest assured it's probably NOT in your best interests!

acharm I do gabble on to myself when at home though I'm not entirely sure how much. No writing though apart from MN. The course projects take a lot of the time I have left after everything else. And goodness, wish it was true I didn't blame myself for the way things are.

But you're right in that I can see I had nothing to do with the emails he sent and the decisions he made in the last month. It's clear in my mind that these were made by someone more worried about containing the result of his actions than of seeing how scared of him I was and how much he hurt me, or the real reasons why I want to divorce.

There's a lot going on. Without children I think I would probably be looking at walking away from the situation, renting a room, getting a job and starting again. Here I can't really. Solicitor is really great so far but there's only so much they can do.

It's all pretty shit, and yes I question myself everyday and wish it was fixable because that's never what I wanted for myself or the children in the grand scheme of things but equally I know I can't go back to the state of absolute terror I was in in August and the horrible times until he left. But I do feel I failed somewhere, like I should have been able to deal with it better and also seriously wonder whether he ever loved me really. I don't get how you can hurt someone so much if you love them so I think maybe he never loved me, but then why want to get married and have 2 children and even say you want another one if you didn't?

Oh and he called for the children this evening (first time this week) and asked dc1 why they hadn't called him earlier in the week. Dc1 said they forgot - which they did I guess as they never asked. (I waited to see what was going to happen)

You couldn't possibly have dealt with it better, you're doing amazingly well.

I don't think he knows what love is. He may never have felt it. I think he got married because he wanted someone to have lots of sex with, provide home comforts, who would do him proud when socialising. He was never very invested in the children, he only said he wanted a third in an attempt to keep control of you, to stop you from working.

But yes, I married a nasty piece of work who's making sure he's looking after himself, that's for sure.

It was good to read this (difficult circumstances nothwithstanding). You are making progress in seeing him how he really is. Don't be too bothered about assisting him in keeping up his fake appearance to the world at large.

Thanks for seeing the positive here. It helps a lot when it all feels so raw still.

Don't be too bothered about assisting him in keeping up his fake appearance to the world at large.

This x 1000. Other than protecting your children from things they don't need to know, don't worry about his business- or social-world. If he was that concerned himself, he wouldn't have done the things he did in the first place. You need have no feelings of shame or remorse for what happened in your marriage or what happens to him after it. YOU WERE HIS VICTIM.

Did he 'love' you? Certainly by his definition of love he did. I'm sure he's bleating that to all and sundry. But his definition of love is twisted and wrong. You know that now and that's why you are making a new life, a life with potential for real, honest love somewhere later down the line.

You say you are questioning yourself. Don't question whether you are doing the right thing, you are. But question and learn about yourself. Not blame, not second guessing. Not rubbing your own nose it in. Learn what a strong person you are, that you did have it in you to leave. Learn what a good person you are, deserving of love and good treatment. Learn what a smart person you are, knowing and understanding that you do deserve, and will have, much better things in your life.

Thanks Across, you're right it's bad to dwell on everything too much. I think by questioning I mean taking stock and try to understand how I got where I am now, in this whole mess. I was probably regarded as a bit of a Miss sensible, and when I think about it I left all senses at the door when I met H, if that makes sense.
And also whilst I don't regret taking the decision about the orders - I'm pretty sure I would already have backtracked if divorce papers had been issued without them - it's quite a brutal process. One minute there, the next gone. No explanations, nothing. Probably just as well in many ways, but in others I sometimes feel like I want to ask why he felt the need to do all these things. But it's best left alone most probably, deep down I know, except my mind often wanders in that direction ...

Even if you did ask him he wouldn't give you an answer. First he wouldn't admit that he'd done anything wrong, then he'd turn it round and say you're neurotic, overdramatic, unstable etc.

Don't ever think there would have been an explanation or closure or anything like it. The more you asked difficult questions, the more he would have ramped up the abuse.

He did the things he did is that he's an arsehole with no moral compass, I doubt you're going to get much closer to the root than that.

I can tell you're sensible and intelligent OP. Personally I think the reason you fell prey to him is entirely because of your mother. She normalised emotional abuse, and laid the warped groundwork for this relationship.

My feeling is that he tricked your imagination. He sold you an image of himself, you were young, a good person and you see the best in people. You were acclimatised to accommodating emotional abuse. Over time you began to see the man behind the mask.

If you ever had time, you might read Portrait of a Lady by Henry James. It's about a highly intelligent woman who falls for a very subtle manipulator. It could happen to anyone if the cad works out the right buttons to press.

Most of the questions you have for him are basically 'unanswerable'. He doesn't truly realize that what he does is wrong. To him, it's normal behaviour. He actually thinks it's 'flattering' to a woman to behave as he does! So he wouldn't be able to give you an acceptable explanation why. He could give you lots of 'answers', sure, all of which would be unacceptable to most people. Sometimes, hard as it is, you just have to realize that a person is just 'wired wrong' and let it go. There will be no answers.

Twinkle has it right. We're all susceptible to seduction and flattery. And often by the time we realize it, we're well caught in the web. It doesn't matter who we are, how smart we are, there's just something in a human that responds to being made to feel as if we're 'the end all' to another person. He used that perfectly! Just congratulate yourself that you've realized it an extricated yourself and your children!

And as brutal as the divorce procedures may be, at least they'll be done at some point. The alternative would have been to live the rest of your life in a manipulative, abusive marriage with a man you despise. I know which I would choose!

Thanks Twinklestein yes I'm sure he would not admit anything. The only times I challenged things he was very dismissive, like I was silly. My head knows he wouldn't acknowledge anything, it's just it's hard.

He always presented things as if he had my best interest at heart and weirdly as it sounds was mr perfect gentleman to start with. I just thought he knew better really. I don't think he had to work very hard really, I mean he did pursue me, as I couldn't quite believe he could be interested in me initially because of the age gap, but apart from that I didn't realise really. I was just quite immature and naive really in many ways, despite the fact that I thought I wasn't. Having children changed that a lot.

As for my mother, yes it's nuts, or more exactly she's nuts. she has no understanding. Last time I talked to her she was still asking if I had made any progress (what she meant was changed my mind) and told me she hoped I came to my senses soon. The endless horrible arguments really took a lot out of me as a teenager, and I know with H I often just couldn't face fighting back as my worse nightmare was a shouting match. Like all my strength to stand up for myself had been sucked out of me.

For the books, I read Daisy Miller and Wings of the Dove for English a long time ago, but not the one you mention.

I understand exactly how he will have come across - kind, charming, clever, sophisticated, gentlemanly, and you were surprised and flattered that someone like him would be interested in you. Except that actually you're worth a million of him, and he targeted you precisely because you were young and vulnerable, probably quite unworldly, and he saw that he could manipulate you.

That's often what older men see in younger women.

Daisy Miller is rather odd, it was one of his first, and Wings of a Dove was his second to last, and is awfully hard work. I wouldn't judge him on those books. Portrait was written in his middle phase which contains, I think, all his masterpieces. It's nothing like Wings although there is a similarity in theme, it is much more full of life and fun and great characters, and much more concise.

Oh across I hadn't noticed your post yesterday.

Both, your comments are pretty spot on. I was unprepared for male attention and interaction when I moved here. In my country no one was interested, I was the studious distant one who's a bit tall and boring. All I wanted was to get out of the place anyway so I had no interest either. Ironically, when I arrived here at uni I ran a mile from a (probably nice) guy my age who'd made it clear he wanted to sleep with me and whose flirting I just didn't know how to handle, decided I needed to do something a bit more fruitful with my weekends, and met H at the outing thing I joined on the other side of town. And never felt threatened one bit by him initially.

I think the attitude towards abuse where I come from is very different to here. It's often unrecognised and/or unreported, even now. Not in larger towns maybe but certainly in parts of villages and countryside. Now and again it comes out, but a lot is ignored.

So I never viewed my own home situation as emotional abuse. I thought that with my mother it was really bad, but maybe just because we both wanted different things. I mean my mother was desperate to get me to see a 'psychiatrist' (her words), not so I could fly the nest healthily, but to be brought back in line. She did the same to my sis who did see someone and ended up on ADs. I refused to see anyone. I knew it was out of order but thought she was desperate, and certainly nothing on par with some of situations I knew were going on in some of houses in the village. It's when I was expecting dc1 (and read parenting books) I started thinking about things and realised more the extent of how fucked up it was from the start, and my rebellion wasn't just raging teenage hormones. Never in a million years would I want my children to have to put up with moods and rules like those she imposed on us.

It's also a pretty macho culture where pleasing the male (who's in charge) is just what you do. That's all I knew as a model really. Even my mother who rules the roost is like that. H lapped it up when he went there, and I played that part at home really.

I still hesitate to see my situation with H now as 'abuse' or me as a 'victim'. I walked right into it and have two lovely children from this. It's quite painful to admit it's what it was.

Generally people call themselves 'survivors' rather than victims don't they, as the latter is a disempowering word. So there's no reason to think of yourself as a 'victim'. I couldn't not call your husband abusive though.

I understand it must be very painful and I'm really sorry. There was another poster on here recently who, like you, had married young, had children and slowly realised her husband was abusive, with their relative ages being a key factor in the inequality. She was also highly intelligent, as you are. In short, I hope you don't give yourself a hard time because it's quite a common scenario. I don't know if it makes it better or worse.

The culture thing makes a lot of sense. You were already inculcated into a male supremacy paradigm which suited your husband's agenda perfectly. Furthemore you were used to being controlled by your mum, so controlling traits in a partner wouldn't seem unusual. You wanted to avoid the conflicts you grew up with, and felt that 'the strength to stand up for myself had been sucked out of me'. All ideal traits for a husband who was looking for someone to dominate.

Hey lovely, glad to here you're koko and doing well. It will be a struggle at times, you were perfectly 'groomed' by your mother, ready for an opportunistic abuser like your stbxh to take advantage of. So very far from any of it being your fault! I hope you can carry on building your strength and belief in yourself, and you'll be giving your children a great role model of a mother that puts her children first and can stand up and say 'no more' when things threaten them / her. You have every right to keep being proud of yourself and congratulating yourself on your courage x

No need to be sorry Twinklestein, only I can work through this now really, as crap as it is. Definitely the age difference played a part, and timing.

I find the word 'survivor' equally weird, if I'm honest. Maybe I'm just burying my head in the sand here.

Relative quiet of the last few days has been broken, so time for reflection over. Lots (and I mean lots) of mucking around around money, looks like court is now going to be the only option left for interim. And shitty email about contact next week in inbox tonight.

I think of it this way;

I WAS my ex-husband's victim. But I AM a survivor because I got out and have been living my own 'happily ever after' ever since.

We all come to terms in our own way with what happened to us. As long as you don't feel any guilt or responsibility for what happened to you, it's all good.

I totally see where you're coming from across. Getting my head round the names applying to me in any way is just strange. But it's just me, now.

Same as when I'm told I'm strong. Yes in a way I am, determined anyway. But another part of me doesn't think I'm really that strong because I didn't stand up for myself earlier, and it took proper physical violence to frighten me into action. I do feel guilty about that and making poor choices really. Yes there were moments when I was most definitely his victim and I accept that but with children in the equation I find it difficult to see myself entirely as that, not that I'm grateful to him for their existence or anything, but it feels weird to use those words, though I know he behaved like a shit and indeed still is. Not sure I make sense there though?!

But the other side of the spectrum is my parents telling me i'm a total disgrace, and I'm weak for not working on my marriage saying I chose the easy route and that I will regret it. So it definitely helps to read on here I'm strong and get some sensible encouragement ... So thanks