Is Mumsnet really a healthy place for advice?

[WildBillfemale]

There seem to be several phrases trotted out again and again irrespective of the problem the OP presents;

Red Flag
Narcissistic
The script
Stonewalling
Gaslighting
Porn addict
LTB
Having a breakdown
On the spectrum
Cherchez la femme
EA
E/affair
MH issues etc

Having seen in the last few days a post that presented facts of an admittedly horrible row but a marriage that could probably be saved with some introspection and will (with the OP stating she loved her husband and wished to remain married to him) quickly turn into 100s and 100s of posts telling/ordering her to LTB is this really a healthy place to post asking for objective advice?
Some posters are excellent in doing that but there are far too many whose views are so muddied by their own unique experience that the advice is actually very damaging.............

Oh and I do agree with the gender bias. I always comment if I see it. It really annoys me. Women are not pure and virtuous creatures filled with compassion, empathy and generosity of spirit. Neither are they all reacting to the unreasonable behaviours of a bastard man. To think so only continues to perpetuate the disparity between the genders that we're all so against anyway. Some women, like some men, just aren't very nice people.

And rb's post is very interesting. I firmly hold that not people displaying abusive behaviours are 'abusers'. My exH was incredibly EA. It's really damaged me (I'm only really now realising just how far reaching the implications are), but I don't think he was a 'bastard'.

Ive seen some amazing advice on here over the years but two things worry me - like others, the online diagnosis imo is plain wrong (and i dont mean 'could he be depressed' ). The other is 'non-contact' stuff. Not being in contact with a close family member is a major decision with huge ramifications that i see every day working with frail older people. Being frail doesnt stop you being nasty (quite the opposite) but if we all got what we deserved in life very few people would have any contact with anyone - and yet relationships are what make us human. I comfort myself by saying that those who post about awful family stuff do so after decades of shit, on the whole.

Some people are really, really, really, really, really threatened by the idea of women being told to LTB. Really threatened.

I don't post in relationships that often, but do come in here from time-to-time. I post from the vantage point of being in a long-term, stable, happy, mutually satisfying relationship, with a nice, kind, decent man. All the men in my life are nice, kind, decent men.

I do, fairly often, tell posters to LTB.

Because, quite honestly, what they're describing is not what they should be accepting and living. I would tell anyone that needs to hear it that they deserve better, and crucially, can do better.

The only times I don't say LTB is when the OP is so awful, so far from my own experience, that I leave it altogether and don't say anything at all.

Lots and lots of women have been unshackled from useless lumps, thanks to Mumsnet.

It's far better that LTB gets doled out more frequently than some people might like - and the odd useless lump suddenly finds himself alone - than even one woman continues to live in the sort of misery that I, and other women in healthy relationships, would find intolerable.

If you (generic) find the LTB mentality on here so threatening, perhaps you need to ask yourself why. If you're in a happy relationship yourself, don't you want everyone else (and their children) to be, as well...?

And again, I don't agree with violence in any shape or form, but even the weediest man is stronger than a woman so when we are talking about physical violence, we are not comparing like with like.

That is a really dangerous president to set. It's like saying that a woman can never be violent towards a man (and I have heard that said before) which is completely untrue.

This is the whole problem with domestic abuse and why men don't report it. I think it is a vast hidden problem and somehow not taken seriously.

Women live with unreported domestic violence on a far grander scale.

It's not a completion, and it's awful when it happens to anyone, male or female, but this is the problem with domestic abuse, full stop. It's a vast, hidden problem for everyone on the receiving end of it.

Of course they do. I was just pointing out that men suffer abuse purely because of the comment about 'weediest man'. There are lots of men who wouldn't hit a woman and fight back. It isn't a competition as you say.

On the admittedly few occasions when a man has posted here complaining about physical, verbal or emotional abuse from a female partner, he's been given exactly the same sympathy & advice as if the genders were reversed. When women appear here and say they have hit a partner.... and I accept this is a generalisation.... the context is often self-defence against extreme provocation, threatening behaviour or fear of immediate danger. There is invariably huge guilt on their part, often encouraged by the partner who has created an angry situation precisely to force an extreme response in order to say 'see... you're abusive'

Where women confess to assaulting a partner and it is not in the context of extreme provocation etc then they are rightly flamed.

I see very good advice given and then I see people who come along and accuse the 'good-avisers' of being too quick to say ltb. So I think dismissiveness and denial and a total lack of comprehension for what others might be dealing with is the bigger problem.

I think the 'bigger problem' in the context of this thread is that people come to MN with too many prejudices and preconceptions about what goes on here. I think they're either expecting to see the equivalent of a touch-feely group therapy session and are shocked by the robustness and candour of the conversation... or they read a few newspapers, are told to expect man-hating hysteria, and then try to make the evidence fit the crime. :)

MexicanSpringtime
"And again, I don't agree with violence in any shape or form, but even the weediest man is stronger than a woman so when we are talking about physical violence, we are not comparing like with like."

I'm sorry but I think this is one step away from excusing physical/emotional abuse against men on the basis that they are 'stronger' and should be able to take it or defend himself.... even though society tells men they should be defenseless if a woman is violent towards them.

We don't have to compare like for like to see that a behaviour is unacceptable and wrong.

CogitoErgoSometimes
When women appear here and say they have hit a partner.... and I accept this is a generalisation.... the context is often self-defence against extreme provocation, threatening behaviour or fear of immediate danger.

Yes but if a man posted here claiming those exact same circumstances it would not be seen as acceptable and people would certainly not take his word for it that he was giving an accurate account of the situation.

I'm sure many abusive men feel their partners have been extremely provocative and just pushed their buttons once too often....... that is no fucking excuse for violence though, regardless of the gender role.

I have to say that as one of the most prolific posters on relationships, I have always noted that Cog is very balanced when offering advice to either sex.

I am more wary when men post here, not because their genuine problems don't deserve genuine help, but because there have been many incidents of husbands posting on MN because their wives are regular users. In which case it's being used as a tool to cut off support to the dw, not as a cry for help.

'it would not be seen as acceptable'

I think the point is largely academic simply because men are not routinely here talking about women who have goaded them into violence, threatened them with physical assault or punished them in some other way. My observation is that women who turn up here very distressed that things 'got physical' are not exactly given a free ride and instantly told it is acceptable. It's always about the context.

On the credibility question however, the whole 'we believe you' approach of MN is certainly female oriented. However, set against the bias of a 'we don't believe you' misogynistic press, court system, society at large, I don't think it's a problem

The big difference is someone posting about having hit their partner and saying they were completely justified and someone posting saying that they deeply regret it.
As it is for someone to post they have been hit, but their partner was immediately sorry and contrite (and it was a true one off) and another where their partner went on a huff and still justifies his/her actions.

Not all pps will make that key distinction, but crucially some (most?) will. The OPs on those thread will take what they want.

There is also the level of violence. If a woman is blocking a door (not good to start with) and is shoved to the side so that the man can leave, is not the same as being punched for the same purpose.

I have two examples of differences in male and female violence.
I have a friend who got punched on her arm, leaving a huge bruise, because she gave a strong nudge with her arm or elbow on her husband when he joked about her very sick dad.
At one time, before we were married, my now exH was having such a jealous tirade at me and made such an offensive comment that I saw red and slapped him. It was inexcusable and it came from a very odd place of entitlement that women are "allowed" to do it. Upon reflection, he was being EA and I should have left him for that, but my response was misguided and I fully recognise it. However, and that was the really red flag, his response to the slap was to go for my neck and drag me from the bed to the window. He was sorry then and it took him over 10 years to actually hit me again, but he did, and he continued to be EA. I have never hit anyone again (bar a couple of taps to DS's hand/bottom when quick action was required).
I almost left him at the time, and upon reflection I should have. But he showed regret and I established very firm boundaries, so it would be ok, right?

I agree that some men can lash out when faced with extreme EA. Very rarely, though a woman will report here that her OH attacked her out of nothing, or not believe that he did it out of nothing. Most times women posting here take a lot of blame for what happened. Probably more than they should.

In any case, they should separate as it's not a healthy relationship.

And getting back to the point, I think most posters will recognise this and do post accordingly.

I don't think this is a good place for advice or to rant if you are in a generally good relationship and just going through a bad patch and looking for hope and ideas on how to get through. In fact I think it can be destructive to good relationships.

However I would struggle to think of anywhere better for those in disfunctional (for want of a better term) realtionships. MN is fantastic for that.

I think Cog's point about MN having a 'we believe you' stance is key. Recently there have been some posters subtly shifting away from that and starting from a basis of 'we will extrapolate an alternative context that will put the OP in the wrong' despite the leaps of logic that entails and the additional information they have to 'make up' to justify it. I think they rightly experience quite robust responses.

I wonder how many men post online on their relationship problems when going through a bad patch 'looking for hope and ideas how to get through' - I know there are some on MN and I am sure some of those are perfectly genuine, but some are nasty twisted trolls.

Why oh why is 'relationship work' women's work?
We all are responsible for our behaviour and our actions and of course women in general are capable as being as nasty, vindictive and unreasonable as men in general, however somehow the numbers for women killed by their partners/ex-partners is huge . I know that DV affecting men is likely very underreported, but the number of murder/manslaughter charges tell quite a story IMO.

It's far better that LTB gets doled out more frequently than some people might like - and the odd useless lump suddenly finds himself alone - than even one woman continues to live in the sort of misery that I, and other women in healthy relationships, would find intolerable.

Good point.

The thing that many women find hardest to understand when they are in the thick of it, is that sometimes asking him to leave is the only way to save the relationship.

Relationships only work if boundaries are respected. Once those boundaries are crossed, there has to be some consequence. Otherwise there is no respect and also loss of trust which can be very hard to come back from.

A very firm stance is what is needed. This is my limit. I have stated it. You have crossed it. You need to leave.

The woman then has time to think very carefully about what she wants/needs and whether she wants to put herself back into that very vulnerable position of trusting someone who has broken their trust.

He gets one invaluable chance to see exactly what he is risking losing. If he really cares and wants to make it work, he will do absolutely everything that he needs to do. He will arrange his own counselling, change his own behaviour, make his own appointment with the gp.

Whatever changes are necessary his will make them himself, off his own back, because he wants to be with her and understands that she is not going to put up with him being selfish, lazy, unreasonable or in any way abusive.

If he doesn't make the effort, then she knows that he is never going to change.

If there is aggression at all in the relationship, the separation will give her time to understand what has been happening and that she does not have to put up with it. Often, it's the fear of separation that keeps the woman in an unhappy relationship, so asking him to leave, even temporarily, takes away some of that fear because the initial impact of him going is already taken care of. And, of course, she is safe from harm.

And it works either way of course, male or female.

I think that if you want advice you have to be prepared for anything and assume that only 50% will be worth listening to. Decide that you will look for no more than 6 posters who seem wise and sensible- concentrate on them and just let the rest flow over you.

I'm not a regular poster on these boards, but I've never really understood the concept that you should always try and save a marriage. I can understand that is what some posters want to do, but maybe some people just feel like that is what they "should" be asking.

I think it's good for people who may be isolated from others or not have conflicting opinions in real life to be exposed to the idea that what's happening in their relationship isn't ok. I think it's also true that you can only save a relationship if both parties are willing to work. No-one is going to leave their husband just because an internet forum told them to, but equally not everyone knows what a healthy relationship looks like.

I think it's good that people can find a "safe space" on the internet to discuss their feelings, even if they ultimately decide the advice given isn't for them.

Red flags, to me, are really important, and I wish I'd been taught about them during sex education at school- I wish I'd been taught to value my emotional wellbeing, instead of just my sexual health and not having a baby. It's a good balance to most of the rest of the media/world to have a site with lots of women with experience of relationships who are able to sometimes point out that things aren't ok- or just to remind women that life is not about bending over backwards to please a man.

Posting on mumsnet helped me see my relationship for what it really was. As someone who doesn't have many people to talk to in real life, and those I can talk to may end up being biased because they are close to me, it has been invaluable for me to gain perspective.

but even the weediest man is stronger than a woman so when we are talking about physical violence, we are not comparing like with like

Ok, I stand corrected. I felt that I could say that in the context of my post, however as a stand-alone comment, I understand the criticisms.

Of course, I understand that a man who has it clear that they should never hit a woman, could be subjected to tremendous physical violence from an abusive woman. But I had already said that I do not condone any form of domestic violence.