Is Mumsnet really a healthy place for advice?

[WildBillfemale]

There seem to be several phrases trotted out again and again irrespective of the problem the OP presents;

Red Flag
Narcissistic
The script
Stonewalling
Gaslighting
Porn addict
LTB
Having a breakdown
On the spectrum
Cherchez la femme
EA
E/affair
MH issues etc

Having seen in the last few days a post that presented facts of an admittedly horrible row but a marriage that could probably be saved with some introspection and will (with the OP stating she loved her husband and wished to remain married to him) quickly turn into 100s and 100s of posts telling/ordering her to LTB is this really a healthy place to post asking for objective advice?
Some posters are excellent in doing that but there are far too many whose views are so muddied by their own unique experience that the advice is actually very damaging.............

I think as pinkfrocks says, posters (myself included) probably use the forum as a way of working out their own stuff or defending their own position. Why are we drawn to particular topics? Particular types of problems? There is always a reason, sometimes even an agenda. However there is nothing particularly wrong with this, and advice is generally well intended and can sometimes be helpful. It is just worth bearing in mind that people have all their baggage when they contribute and there is inevitably a lot of projection going on.

pinkfrocks why would you consider the opinion of the papers more valid than the appraisal of people who actually post here?

The media pick up on certain threads. They don't tend to mention the threads where the OP is expressing gratitude for support. They don't refer to the threads where posters offer hand-holding, personal messages or practical help to other posters at the end of their tether. They definitely don't mention the wealth of legal and practical advice given from how to write letters addressing certain topics to the best bodies to use to find a qualified counsellor, to which organisations provide the best support for medical issues, etc.

I do agree that if you take your view of the 'relationships' board from an occasional visit or your view of MN from the media then you can be left with a very odd impression of the site. I also think there are lots of different forums available on the internet and posters are drawn to ones that suit them so if the attitudes on a MN thread are too robust or perceived as rude then they absolutely don't need to subject themselves to that.

"MN forums are renowned for being bullying, witch hunts and not a nice place much of the time."

I think there are big sections of paternalistic media that feel threatened by the very idea of women getting together and mobilising, so they put out negative stories as a way to destroy the credibility. Interesting that you use the term 'witch'. The mediaeval method of legitimising the abuse of women who didn't fit with the prevailing view of how women ought to behave :)

If your first experience of MN is the AIBU board then you're going to see attempts at bullying which is the usual internet forum result of combining free speech with anonymity. Elsewhere, not so much.

I just think that there are some posters who- if they want to be really useful- should train and do this kind of stuff in RL- if that's what floats their boat- because being on a forum so much shows a gap in their own lives which means they are not always best placed to offer non-judgemental advice. (And I hold my hands up that sometimes I waste too much time here)

What a nasty, spiteful post.

Have you read the posts by people who have been helped by other posters on here?? Those same posters you seem to look down on?

You know those posters who help women get out of abusive relationships, who support women when they find out their partners of 20 years have been cheating on them, who are too scared to speak to anyone in real life, who have no idea where/how to get help in real life... people who are cut off from people in 'real life'?? People who would not or could not get help in 'real life' without the support from women on here?

People who wouldn't get as far as trained professionals if they didn't get help here first.

No, I'm guessing not. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but putting posters down is really shite.

I think MN is a very healthy place for advice.

faire's point about being made to feel we matter resonates with me.

I find it a bit disturbing that lots of people saying MN isn't a good place for advice are focussing only on abusive versus non-abusive relationships, as if you'd be unreasonable or unjustified to leave any relationship that wasn't abusive.

I've found MN incredibly helpful in making me see that my own happiness matters, and that women don't have to stay in relationships just because they're not actively being abused.

It also helped me see that my ex, who really damaged my confidence and upset me, was abusive. And I couldn't see it because, like others who've posted, I wasn't brought up to identify that sort of thing as abuse.

I look at my parents' marriage (which is my basic example, obviously), and there's physical and emotional abuse, and yet neither of them would recognise it as abusive. I am so grateful to MN I got to realize these things before I had children, so I can watch out and do everything I can to avoid that situation. And I know if I do end up in an unhappy relationship, people on here will talk me through it and won't just tell me to compromise my happiness and not rock the boat.

But wildBill people do post on here if they are having a bad day / have had a row / or are fuming with their partner. It is just a different kind of OP and they post on here to vent, to get some perspective, advice, or to see the humour in the situation. In these threads the LTB suggestions are light hearted, the advice has a different slant and most people will settle their differences and go on as before.

Those are very different from threads where the OP describes an abusive situation and IME most posters are intelligent enough to tell the difference and will tailor their advice accordingly.

That's what I thought? What "papers" do you refer too pinfrocks.

It's not like any of the "papers" would be biased is it?

It's amazing reading this thread how many people have had their eyes opened just by being able to recognize that they are in an abusive relationship. As one person said it is one of the few places that offers advice from a feminist's perspective. This makes so many people uncomfortable.

Well said LRD. We all matter.

You ought to read the papers more and see the consensus out there!

Really! Good grief. All I can say is don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail papers!

Do you really think the generic articles the "papers" write addressing thousands of people, with a view to selling papers and advertising let's not forget, are more valuable and to the point than individual replies to a specific problem described by the person actually living with that problem?

I think as women we are conditioned to stay in a relationship no matter what. Just the idea that you can leave, either because the relationship is abusive or because you are no longer happy.

The very idea is empowering and is helpful in itself.

The most recent mention of MN I've read in the papers is a one-liner in the New York Times about Mary Beard coming on here when people start nice threads about her.

Not exactly den of vipers stuff.

References to 'witch hunts' tend to make me distrust the source, TBH.

(And thanks, wicked - though it's faire's point really!)

Thank you but I think I can make up my own mind about Mumsnet or anything else that I can actually see for myself.

I don't need to read the papers about MN because I am on MN and know it a lot better than a journalist who comes occasionally and stirs up on purpose.
You do get people who attack each other, who are reported and even given time off (AF being one example :) ).

And of course not all pps will refer to professionals, because often that advice has already been given (!) and often reinforced.

I'll be happy to tell people that I did leave home with nothing and DS to show them that it is possible. Some people do call it from a comfortable position of not having had to face an actual abuser, but many of us here have and can say what has worked and what didn't.
Read threads about abusers and cheaters and they are all very similar. That is why people with experience of this can help in recognising patterns of behaviour.

As for newspapers I read two UK papers online (one being the Telegraph ) and one from my home country. Is that enough?

And I do post throughout MN, but will dedicate some time to a few relationship threads. That means I read them properly and pay attention to the details on the OP's posts rather than shoot from the hip.

I'll just say that the bad and damaging advice is to stay in abusive relationships, to try and work it out even wen the other person refuses to and where there has been violence or threats of violence.
So, I think those dishing out such advice should refrain from giving advice on such threads and properly train on relationships.
It's a shame that too many people end up staying such a long time in very
unhappy relationships.

Interestingly everyone in RL who I confided in during my relationship issues agreed with me (and I was the first to say this), that working on my relationship and trying to make a go of it was the right thing to do.

No one in RL said LTB. No friends, no family.

So I was at first shocked when I was told XH was abusive. I argued it. I said that it was me. I was to blame. I needed to work harder, make things better, understand him more.

I finally accepted how unhappy I was, how unhappy the dcs were, how frightened we all were of his moods.

If I were to list everything he did, you would all shout that it was obviously a domestic violence situation. But it wasn't to me. With hindsight I'm one of those women who people might say "but why did you stay?!", and the answer is, because most of the time things were fine and we had good times, and I just wanted those times to last forever and the bad times to go away.

Anyway, I digress, my point is (and I do have one) that after I left, everyone in RL who had said "stay and work it out", changed to "I didn't know how to tell you to leave, I wish you'd left years ago, you can't tell people to end their relationships"

MN did, they saw the signs, asked the right questions and helped.

Interestingly I have posted about a later relationship. I was worried I was being blind to something, and that I might be vulnerable to being fooled again. The response? He's a good 'un, he's behaved normally, everything is fine and you're overreacting". It didn't work out with that person, but that was because we weren't compatible, he was and is a good guy.

And I can tell you now, a thousand people could tell me to leave dh and I wouldn't, because I am happy and we have a fair and balanced relationship.

I will forever be grateful to those who opened my eyes.

I agree that there's been a steady flow of posters of late, who insist that anything less than appeasing your dh, is throwing your marriage away. Even where the woman and children could be in danger of real physical harm. This is not AIBU. Yes we are getting only one opinion, but if a person is unhappy in a relationship for whatever reason, they do actually have the right to leave. There doesn't need to have been DV, it's everyone's right to live the life that they want to, and not to feel obligated to stay where they are not happy.

that's a good point FuckYouChris - I left XP nearly 2 years ago and still friends/family tell me what a shame it is we aren't together - so sad etc. Despite it being entirely at my own personal cost emotionally, health wise and financially.

They just see/saw Mr Charming/Mr Public Face. I try to tell them what was going on but for whatever reason they don't get it, or can't see it, or think I'm being dramatic etc. They don't believe me, or in some cases they think that it is "normal" and something to be put up with. "He's just having a bad day/week/month/life" etc.

Talking with RL friends/family was no use to me at all and in fact reinforced the status quo. Whatever the reason I leave it with them - it's their issue not mine.

MN truly opened my eyes not only to my own choices and options, but that bringing up children in an abusive home was very damaging for those children.

I don't read the Mail, except online. Also meant broadsheets. But there is no smoke without fire- and the words 'witch hunt' etc are not mine but ones that have been used about MN. Shona Sibary wrote a damning piece and although I disagree with 99% of what she writes on anything there were some snippets of truth in it all!

I think most people think that there is an awful lot of "putting up with" to do in a relationship. Generally it's the woman that has to "put up with" the behaviour.

Perhaps that's what it comes down to, BeCool? Posters being divided into those who believe the worst thing for DCs is to grow up in a single parent family, and those who believe the worst thing for DCs is to grow up in an unhappy/abusive family, where they are most likely to learn and later model similar relationships?

Anomaly.... I was one who didn't defend the husbands actions in that thread, but was willing to see both sides and how one outburst in 7 years may not be LTB worthy and how the marriage perhaps had a chance of being saved.

It didn't work out that way but I stand by my posts in that thread.

However, you are wrong! I am in a very happy marriage with tons of self-respect who put up with little shit. I also have tons of experience with DV and caring for those in those marriages and I have seen it first hand time and time again. I grew up with a sociopathic father and seen my mum in one bad relationship after another and been very vocal in my opinions of those men and called abuse before she even realised. I watched my mum get beat up, watched her being emotionally abused time and time again so I am pretty clued up with how a DV relationship works and the signs. I also have very high standards of men as a result, I was just willing to think that the OP may have had a chance to save her marriage as it was the first time he did anything like that in 7 years. Sadly, he obviously wanted out and it was beyond repair.

I resent that if someone has a different opinion we are called names like abuse apologists, victim blamers or accused of being in a bad marriage. I am neither of those things and if clear abuse was happening I would be one of the first to cry LTB.

if a person is unhappy in a relationship for whatever reason, they do actually have the right to leave. There doesn't need to have been DV, it's everyone's right to live the life that they want to, and not to feel obligated to stay where they are not happy

Absolutely - this.

if clear abuse was happening I would be one of the first to cry LTB

But the point it often it isn't "clear abuse". Many many threads here start with the OP raising one issue, and she is oblivious to all the abuse in her life. And the wise ones here will gently probe, and ask the right questions and slowly it all starts to gone out and the WHAM the OP has an OMG moment and see's what is actually going on around her.

But to get the OP to that that point, where the scales fall from her eyes can take time, patience, asking the right questions etc. It does happen her time and time again. But it may not appear to be "clear abuse" from the start and you will get certain posters coming along to declare everyone is nuts and he is "just having a bad day".

Recent example is so may posters telling the OP to "just talk to him and work it out" when the OP had made very clear several times that her H would not and did not talk to her about their relationship/issues. You can't solve a relationship by talking is only one person will talk. Impossible.

I think I would rather trust my OWN experiences and those of posters actually on the forum who have received incredible and life changing support than the occasional random "newspaper" article. How ridiculous to suggest that we should factor that into our MN use, similar really to women being told repeatedly that they should not listen to their own instincts and stick it out and relationships take work i.e. Ignore their own reality and let others decide.

Nicki- with respect you have distorted my post. I was making a point about how MN is perceived by some people. People with just as much right to have an opinion as anyone here. I don't think I mentioned anyone not using MN or taking what is written in the press as Gospel.

But to mention how MN is perceived in the press suggests you agree with that perception.