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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Shocked at H's outburst

999 replies

Alwaysalone · 23/08/2014 06:07

Name changed..

Yesterday, as we're driving away for our annual weekend away (our only holiday every year), with DC (aged 1 and 3) in the car, H and I had an argument. It was over something silly (H had strapped in DC without putting her shoes on, and I hadn't packed any spare). I blamed him for it. Then, very placid, extremely kind H (who has never shouted at me in the 7 years we've been married), told me to 'shut the fuck up' or he'd 'punch my face in'. To say I was shocked would be an understatement.. After crying the remaining journey (me, and the kids), he drive us back home and unpacked his bag only, then went up to bed. When I attempted to discuss what he said in the car, he ignored me. When I enquired how we move on from this, he said 'we don't'. When I enquired what he meant, he said 'go figure'..

I slept in the spare room last night. I just don't know what to think. I don't know why he's being like this. He told me once a few years ago that I moan at him too much (which I accept, I have 2 young girls who are a real handful), but however much I nag, how does that justify what he said to me? In front of our children too... My heart is literally broken.. It's like there is no moderation in his behaviour. He's either silent, or he over exaggerates at the smallest thing. He has NEVER threatened violence before. Once, 3 years ago when we had another row (again, over something small), he told me he'd had enough and wanted a divorce. He then apologised to me (rare), and said he didn't mean it. Can someone help me make sense of this? Was it my fault? What should I do? I'm just devastated.

He has a good job, excellent provider, great dad and generally, very good Husband. I just don't know if I can forget what he said to me. He called me melodramatic last night too.. Am I being melodramatic? I know it's ridiculous to think about it, but my mum is seriously ill with a heart condition, and I don't want to add to her problems (she is usually who I turn to in times of problems)..

Please help.

OP posts:
Fairenuff · 25/08/2014 10:17

If you do nothing else today, please make sure you do this one thing - read up on stonewalling:

Stonewalling is when someone shuts you down from communicating. He just “bails” on your efforts at communication, refuses to take you seriously; refuses to engage a discussion of your concerns.

He may ignore or dismiss you, express fatigue with you (and your concerns); he may listen without offering a thoughtful, respectful response, and then credit himself for having listened, perhaps even listened at a length he may complain about.

In any case his unthoughtful, lazy, dismissive, or flat-out non-response to your feelings and concerns captures the essence of stonewalling and will reflect his pure contempt for which he’ll take no responsibility.

Rather, he may depict you as a boring windbag who doesn’t know when to “stop talking,” or who’s always making or looking for “trouble,” without recognizing or owning how his insistent refusal to listen, his determination NOT to listen, actually provokes, passive-aggressively, your very instinct to “talk” and “pursue him” until he gives a meaningful response.

He may flat-out tell you he’s bored by, and uninterested in, the concerns you raise, regardless of how strongly you feel about them, and regardless of how strong your need to discuss them is. It may be that the more urgency you feel to broach your concerns, the more he’ll contemptuously stonewall you.

When your concerns pertain to the relationship itself, his rebuff will feel especially cruel and leave you feeling especially helpless. It will also very likely be dripping with some form of passive-aggressive, if not aggressive, contempt.

Now this is stonewalling, and stonewalling is a nasty, hurtful thing to do to someone; it leaves the stonewalled party feeling as negated as a person can feel.

You don’t have to be a sociopath to stonewall. Plenty of non-sociopaths stonewall. But many sociopaths are stonewallers, and the act of stonewalling itself, especially when it’s intentional, often contains the cold, callous attitude of the sociopath.

The stonewaller’s absence of empathy for the stonewalled party, perhaps even the relish the stonewaller takes in messing with the stonewalled party’s head, in watching her twist and squirm and perhaps make humiliating efforts and bids to be heard—there can be something actually sadistic about this.

Stonewalling will tend to elicit some common feelings in the stonewalled party—among them shame, anger, rage, infuriation, humiliation, desperation (to be heard), helplessness, and a sense of being driven crazy.

Stonewalling, then, is a form of “gaslighting” insofar as it can leave the stonewalled party feeling as if she’s speaking a foreign language inaccessible to the stonewaller even though she knows perfectly well the stonewaller speaks the language, literally, but either refuses to speak it or “acts” like he doesn’t.

This can have a “crazy-making” effect, as if he’s accusing her (as he may very well do) of speaking incomprehensibly.

Stonewallers, whether sociopaths or not, are seriously disturbed communicators. Their indifference to the stonewalled party’s experience, as noted, can be chilling. Their stonewalling often reflects character pathology, in which case they won’t change—they will always be stonewallers.

Stonewallers are destructive partners whom it’s best to avoid, and even leave, for your sanity’s and dignity’s sake. I make this strong suggestion in cases where the stonewaller refuses to assume total and genuine responsibility for his stonewalling, which is not always, but too often is, the case.

You need to stop banging your head against the “wall” (the pun is apt) trying to reach the stonewaller, because he is not reachable. Futility is what you are left feeling again and again, until you feel depressed and hopeless. The futility is not in your head. It is real, and will always be the experience with the stonewaller, who disowns responsibility for the suffering his stonewalling causes you.

Identify the stonewalling partners in your life; if they can’t, or won’t, take charge of their stonewalling, get them out of your life as best, completely and fast as you can.

This is an extract from one of the many articles that a quick search will bring up.

here

are

some

more

BoffinMum · 25/08/2014 10:25

My ex was like this. The key word there being 'ex'.

If you can get yourself into a more neutral and less scared/emotional frame of mind and act in a more confident, independent and positively assertive manner, he will probably back down and start sucking up in some way, as it will be clear his tantrum has had the opposite effect to what he wanted.

Meanwhile ask yourself if you want to be with someone who plays mind games.

BoffinMum · 25/08/2014 10:31

BTW your job tomorrow is to go through the family paperwork, make copies and file them securely for yourself, and work out what you do and don't own, what accounts you both have and how much is in each one, and to make sure you have a separate current account with some funds.

I am astonished you don't know whether you own half of your own house, and I think you have been coasting a bit in terms of allowing him to do everything and assuming all will be fine. Women need to be much more clued up than that.

BTW don't leave the marital home under any circumstances.

MrsCosmopilite · 25/08/2014 10:31

I'm still here, following developments panning out.

I agree with several of the suggestions.

  1. You've practised what you're going to say to him so either say it to him, text him, or write it down. He is NOT going to make a move to do anything to resolve this without prompting.
  1. Get out of the spare room and back into yours. He's the one sulking. Let him go and sulk in a corner like the manchild he's being.
  1. Good idea to examine the option of getting out and doing some things for you. You're putting in a 10+ hour day at home, he's putting in 10+ hours at work. Same difference, but it sounds as though his lifestyle has factored in some 'him' time. Yours doesn't. You need to fix this.
  1. 'Fess up. Stop excusing his behaviour. Go and speak to your mum. Let him deal with the children on his own for a few hours.

At the moment there seems to be a huge amount of respect lacking in the relationship. There are obviously problems, but they need to be addressed, not swept under the carpet, minimised or ignored. I realise it's hard for you to effectively sieze the reins here and make a stand, but so far, being passive isn't working.

WildBillfemale · 25/08/2014 10:34

Alwaysalone

The only advice I have left to give is to get off mumsnet and ignore all the pages and pages of posts saying LTB. People are absolutely determined to label your husband an abuser and you are being sucked in.
You are being given advice form total strangers (including me) who really know nothing about your true situation and you are now talking about leaving base on this advice.

Anger needs to subside after a row, you need to be on your own to clear your head with no 'noise' advice from others.
Even if it takes a week of no talking you will broach this eventually with H.

CromerSutra · 25/08/2014 10:40

WildBill, I was in agreement with those saying that this outburst alone does not make him an abuser . I could even accept that for, perhaps a day, they both may have needed cooling off time but 3 days???!!!

Come on. That is the action of someone who is trying to control a situation and completely avoid looking at his own behaviour.

How is she meant to proceed like that?

CromerSutra · 25/08/2014 10:42

Op's last example of a huge fall out involved her having to apologise for something she didn't do so that he could be "right" and she could be "wrong". Would you do that? Apologise for something you hadn't done? I bloody wouldn't and I am the first to admit to my failings.

Squeegle · 25/08/2014 10:43

I agree, we all burst out!! But the sulking/stonewalling is absolutely impossible to deal with; it's just not an adult way to react to a situation. So whether OP LTB or not, she certainly does need to deal with this sulking.

capant · 25/08/2014 10:49

You can't resolve issues in a relationship alone. It takes two.

Please please don't waste your time trying to fix a relationship alone.

Fairenuff · 25/08/2014 10:51

Always mumsnet is currently your one avenue of support, don't listen to anyone who tries to cut that off. You are already quite isolated but you have lots of and lots of people here wishing you well in whatever you decide to do.

Taking steps to prepare yourself for different eventualities means nothing. Nothing is set in stone. But being prepared will make you feel stronger and more confident.

Yes, get your paperwork together, read up on abuse, tell a trusted friend, get legal advice. Not only will it help with practicalities but it will also keep you busy and keep your mind occupied until the Lord of the Manor deigns to talk to you again.

One thing. If he is still angry, as far as you can tell, don't confront him.

If he seems calm, let him get on with wasting his weekend. Don't waste yours, take this opportunity to arm yourself with facts.

And keep posting. You don't have to make any decisions yet, you don't have to commit to anything x

Fairenuff · 25/08/2014 10:58

“The difference between the verbally abusive man and the physical batterer are not as great as many people believe….Most abusive men simply don’t seem like abusers. They have many good qualities, including times of kindness, warmth, and humor, especially in the early period of a relationship. An abuser’s friends may think the world of him”

From the link above - this is one illustration of why people find it so hard to see the abuse, as evidenced on this thread. He is a good provider, he got her a home help, he plays with the children, etc. All that might be true but he still threatened to punch her in the face and that is abusive behaviour.

LoonvanBoon · 25/08/2014 11:06

Always, sorry you weren't able to tell your mum about this yesterday. I hope you are able to soon, presuming she will be supportive. You need RL support.

Don't have anything useful to add to all the excellent advice from so many posters; but can't get over what you wrote yesterday about how your DH actually ADMIRES his dad because of, rather than in spite of, the seriously dysfunctional way in which he's conducted his own marriage. And in spite of his misogyny.

This is seriously fucked up, OP, you must see that. And you're not the fucked up one. I also can't believe some of the shit you've had on this thread about being a SAHM, having help in the home, "nagging" (or having to ask your DH repeatedly to do important things), etc. etc.

I admire your strength in sticking around. You're not a coward. The way your DH is behaving right now, OTOH, is cowardly at best - & deliberately manipulative & bullying at worst. Do you feel any anger? I would be furious by this point. Someone has threatened you with violence & followed this up with 3 days of silence & sulking. It's not on.

BookABooSue · 25/08/2014 11:22

Always try to get some time out of the house today, doing something fun. You need to distance yourself from your DH and try to restore your equilibrium.

You can't make him talk to you so stop wasting your energy and the DCs' holiday time by trying to work out what to do or say.

I know it's hard but try to stop making excuses for him to yourself and to everyone else. If you go to your DM's then tell her that he hasn't spoken for 3 days. If you go out with a friend instead then tell your friend he hasn't spoken for 3 days. He should be embarrassed not you.

Whoever you tell in RL might struggle to respond at first because they haven't seen the accumulation of little struggles that has brought you to this point. However, the more you share, the better support you'll be able to access. (It is why I think a counsellor would probably help best just now because they don't have a particular agenda which your friends and family might have).

This isn't about labelling your DH's behaviour. It's about recognising the needs of you and your DDs.

I'd also think about how you'd feel if he was ignoring your DDs for days on end. They're seeing this as an example of how a relationship works. So, for everyone's sakes, either take them or yourself out of the house for the day.

Stop playing the 'how-do-I-get-him-to-engage-game' . He's making it clear that he'll engage when he wants. I say this with the best will in the world, but being his audience isn't helping you - so do something that will make you feel energised and happy, and then, later, work out what you want and how long you are willing to be ignored before you feel you have to act Thanks

needastrongone · 25/08/2014 11:29

The reason that I mentioned my own DH's bi-polar was, that, even given the fact that he was very ill at that stage, his reaction to his own furious outburst to DD (although he never swore or threatened violence) was poles apart from how Alway's DH has reacted.

I just wanted to highlight that you can know the difference between 'right and wrong' as ifnotnowthenwhen, puts it (although an aunt with bi-polar is very different to a spouse Smile), even when you have a 'reason/excuse', to behave as you do.

You can also choose NOT to behave as your parents did too, rather than admire.

What is happening here is absolutely not on.

Find strength always, and don't leave the thread. Start another as required.

WildBillfemale · 25/08/2014 11:33

Way too much projection going on here some are really over invested in this thread.

OP I'm off, good luck but I repeat - get off this thread it stopped being constructive pages and pages ago

Lweji · 25/08/2014 11:42

I don't feel comfortable advising you to have a talk with him right now because it may actually be dangerous for you.

But I agree that you should be proactive and not let it fizzle out, nor be left in limbo.

It is important that it is not kept a secret from those close to you, including your mum. Secrecy is a big factor in abuse. You are feeling isolated and alone, were it not for MN. You do need real life support.

It is important that you arm yourself with financial knowledge, as mentioned in other posts.

As it stands, I think I'd propose to him that one of you moves out (preferably him) so that you both have time to think about what happened and decide what each wants to happen.
You could tell him that he should have space to think it over without you around or any pressure and that's why it would be better if he leaves.
Or that you are going, because the children need a holiday, so you will with them and think it over.
I'd give it up to a week and then meet somewhere neutral and with people around to discuss it.
Having a mediator (even if it is a "counsellor") might help, as you may feel less threatened. But only if you are not staying in the same house.

If he does step up to the challenge and feigns regret and promises to improve, etc, be aware that things may change very quickly. Make sure you have an escape route at all times. Don't confront him directly if things deteriorate, but be prepared to leave at short notice, should you need to.

DemelzaandRoss · 25/08/2014 11:44

Go to your Mum & explain what is happening. You need support NOW. There is no shame in this.

Lweji · 25/08/2014 11:45

What would you do if any other man (or anyone) had threatened to punch you in the face?

IfNotNowThenWhen · 25/08/2014 11:58

I am invested WildBill but only because I the 3 days thing is making me really angry on OP's behalf, maybe because she sounds so cowed.
And, no, I don't think anyone is "projecting". I am recognising. There is a difference.

Alwaysalone · 25/08/2014 12:05

Lovely posters.. H has taken dd1 swimming. He's just text me saying 'do we need anything from tesco'?

Wtaf?!?!?!

How should I respond??????

OP posts:
Lweji · 25/08/2014 12:08

Something like
I don't need anything from Tesco, but we need to talk?

Alwaysalone · 25/08/2014 12:09

That sounds good. Thanks lweji xx

OP posts:
WaffleWiffle · 25/08/2014 12:10

Do you need anything from Tesco? Either "yes, we could do with x, y and z" or "Not that I can think of, but maybe we could enjoy a box of chocs together tonight, if you feel like it?"

At least he's opening up lines of communication.

Alwaysalone · 25/08/2014 12:12

waffle, I don't want to appear 'normal' to him if that makes sense. I want him to know this is a serious point so he doesn't brush it under the carpet...

OP posts:
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