Shocked at H's outburst

[Alwaysalone]

Name changed..

Yesterday, as we're driving away for our annual weekend away (our only holiday every year), with DC (aged 1 and 3) in the car, H and I had an argument. It was over something silly (H had strapped in DC without putting her shoes on, and I hadn't packed any spare). I blamed him for it. Then, very placid, extremely kind H (who has never shouted at me in the 7 years we've been married), told me to 'shut the fuck up' or he'd 'punch my face in'. To say I was shocked would be an understatement.. After crying the remaining journey (me, and the kids), he drive us back home and unpacked his bag only, then went up to bed. When I attempted to discuss what he said in the car, he ignored me. When I enquired how we move on from this, he said 'we don't'. When I enquired what he meant, he said 'go figure'..

I slept in the spare room last night. I just don't know what to think. I don't know why he's being like this. He told me once a few years ago that I moan at him too much (which I accept, I have 2 young girls who are a real handful), but however much I nag, how does that justify what he said to me? In front of our children too... My heart is literally broken.. It's like there is no moderation in his behaviour. He's either silent, or he over exaggerates at the smallest thing. He has NEVER threatened violence before. Once, 3 years ago when we had another row (again, over something small), he told me he'd had enough and wanted a divorce. He then apologised to me (rare), and said he didn't mean it. Can someone help me make sense of this? Was it my fault? What should I do? I'm just devastated.

He has a good job, excellent provider, great dad and generally, very good Husband. I just don't know if I can forget what he said to me. He called me melodramatic last night too.. Am I being melodramatic? I know it's ridiculous to think about it, but my mum is seriously ill with a heart condition, and I don't want to add to her problems (she is usually who I turn to in times of problems)..

Please help.

I will admit that at the end of a very unhealthy relationship (both women, I'm gay) when I found out my dp had been unfaithful to me again I wanted to hit her. I didn't say it and I certainly didn't do it but it was a wake up call to me that the relationship was over, that if I could be reduced to feeling like that then we had no future.

I'm the least aggressive person you could ever meet and have never hit anyone ever.

He may not deserve to be vilified but he should be as shocked as op is by his outburst and doing some serious thinking.

OP firstly a big hug. I empathise with you completely. The threat of violence is simply not on. But equally please do not allow this to get out of all proportion. I had a very very similar experience also in the car. He was driving. He is a loving and caring father but sometimes a little too indulgent with the children. He had bought them all toys in the toyshop even though I'd said they couldn't have anything. Nothing too big I think it was just a small car each for the boys and a something for our daughter. Just a couple of quid.

Anyway as we set off on the journey, this had really really annoyed me and I let him know with both barrels. He went quieter and quieter and of course I found this even more annoying. So I continued because I wasn't feeling like I'd been heard.

Suddenly all hell broke loose. Swearing shouting. All the children and me in tears actually terrified he was going to crash the car.

Thankfully we can look back on this now (been married 17 years and together for over 20 )and be really grateful we didn't let such a trivial event destroy our marriage.

For us it was a one off. We talked and agreed a way through. He knows I don't like it when he "goes into his cave". He doesn't like it when I repeat what has gone wrong too many times.

We have a deal with each other now and know how to spot the signals.

I hope things work out for you. You're two good human beings who probably had a bad day. No crime in that.

Lovespeace, maybe the op was a little fucked off because she has packed everything, loaded everything and the one thing he had to do was pick the child up. Yes, understandably, if she does all the packing why on earth DH would think that she hadn't packed shoes, I can see his point there, so she's frazzled from doing everything, he needs to get her to shut up somehow... Hopefully as soon as he'd made the punch comment he realised he'd gone too far. It's only when things have calmed down can you move forward, he hasn't reached that stage yet.
Hope things work out op.

Whether it is a man or woman, losing temper, threatening violance because you have been you claim to have been provoked is common but it is not normal

Its sad that the thread has gone off to address issues others have about the 'anti men' of mumsnet instead of the op

told me to 'shut the fuck up' or he'd 'punch my face in'

Total dealbreaker.

See a lawyer.

Fwiw, my ex threatened to punch me in the face when I was pregnant. We were trying to find a parking space and I said 'you've just driven past one' in a calm way. Then he followed with that outburst.

I stayed for about a year and he got worse and worse. It is a major red flag OP, no matter what stage in the relationship you are in.

If he is a useless father and you have to remind him of certain things (like shoes and dietary needs) that's not your fault! I often had to remind ex about how to carry out certain tasks (like reminding him to fasten the car seat straps!) I was not nagging him or putting him down, I just didn't want my child to be ejected from the car in the event of an accident. I'm not saying your H definitely is useless.

Do you think you do criticise him too much? We do have to let some things slide, but if something is dangerous then yes, you should speak up. I can see from his POV, that being 'nagged' for seven years would be incredibly irritating. But it depends on the reason for the 'nagging'.

I have lost my temper on occasion. I never threatened to hit anybody though. Nor have I screamed and shouted at people. That's just not a normal reaction. It sounds like the relationship is strained, to say the least.

Before I'm slated for poor grammar and spelling, I meant 'threatening violance because you claim to have been provoked'

Just read most of this thread, OP, and what most worries me is your husband inability to communicate and refusal to do anything about that.

He blew up over nothing yesterday and now he's giving you the silent treatment today. I'm sure you might come across as "nagging", but why has he never said anything to you before about that? Why did he wait until he blew a fuse? And now that he has blown a fuse, why is he still refusing to discuss it?

The very idea of growing up in a "home" with a mother and father who don't speak to each other for twenty years and then not thinking that maybe you need to get some help with the issues that would cause...

I fear you might end up reproducing your husband's childhood for your own children.

'He has a good job, excellent provider, great dad, and generally ver good husband'

From the OP.

LP your choice of language is putting the emphasis the other way round, so that you are biased in favour of the man in this scenario. Is there something here that resonates personally with you, because it's rare to see someone so vehemently defended when he is clearly in the wrong.

All your reasoning points to OP being so difficult to live with that she drives him to desperate measures. Do you think they should be together? Do you think there is hope for this relationship?

What would you advise OP to do.

Look at how you phrase things:

the husband works hard, (agreed)
is a good dad, (women often say this about men that abuse them btw)

(but money is tight so they can only get away for ONE WEEKEND a year (why do you use capitals here?)

the OP then does her best to spoil it - Here it is. The OP does her best to spoil it. Where do you get that from, do you think she did it on purpose. It's just the choice of phrase here that I think stands out.

by blaming him for forgetting shoes using the word 'blame' is, again, inferring that she has done something wrong. We don't actually know the words used, that's all conjecture.

(she's equally responsible) - I agree

So he's worked all year, then loads his daughter into the car, (agreed)

only for the OP to attack him verbally, - Here it is again. You think that she attacked him even though we don't actually know what she said. But you don't think that he attacked her even though we do know he said 'I will punch your face in'.

then be surprised when he retorts. - Here it is again. A threat to punch is not a 'retort'. You are minimising to justify his threat.

And now you are all suggesting hoops for him to jump through - Not sure what you mean here? What do you think people have suggested he do? I know poster have suggested that OP gets more advice, maybe counselling for her, womens aid, see a solicitor even so that she knows what's what if it does come to it, but what have posters suggested he do?

ways he can debase himself at the altar of her perfect womanhood - Here is that strange language again. There's a lot of religion in your comments, btw, not sure if you are aware of that, but no-one has suggested he debase himself. I really cannot see where you are getting this from.

in order for him to be allowed to stay, when he's miserable. Or don't his feelings count as long as SHE is happy?

If he won't do anything to help himself, how can anyone else help him. OP would go to counselling with him but he won't go. He doesn't talk to her about feelings, if you read OP's posts, she didn't even know he was unhappy. The first she knew about it was when he said he wanted a divorce. He has to help himself.

If the roles were reversed, you'd be telling him that one outburst was understandable, and that he needs to leave the controlling bastard who drove him to it.

If the roles were reversed, yes I would be telling him to leave her. If she was behaving like him and he was behaving like her, it would make no difference. Unless they can talk there is no hope for this relationship. They have to separate or stay unhappily married. Of those two options, separation would be the best choice.

Placidjoy aren't you glad you didn't post on here, only to be told the only solution was to leave the bastard because without doubt he was abusive and just biding his time until he beat the living daylights out of you. Guessing your children weren't traumatised and didn't spend the rest years in counselling. :) I'm glad you both had enough sense to talk to each other and work through the issue. This is completely 'out of fashion' on MN, seemingly the only solution ever is to LTB :( and it's always his fault, no matter what.

Don't get me wrong - I post LTB on a regular basis, simply because by the time women post on here it's often got to that stage, but bloody hell, not every single time. Sometimes, like here, there's certainly room for discussion and 'trying to work it out'.

I can nag a bit - I'm sleep deprived with a baby and toddler, easily irritated and often want things done 'my way'. My husband sometimes expresses annoyance with this. Sometimes we aren't totally measured and reasonable in everything we say, what with the young children and accompanying stresses. Neither of us have ever, ever sworn at each other or threatened violence. I think that's totally unjustifiable.

There is a huge amount of projection and interpretation in the responses but I really feel sorry for the OP in a horrible, shocking situation. She's all too willing to accept blame and make amends - personally, I don't think she's in the wrong. But for those who do think it's all her fault, can't you acknowledge that she's admitting a lot of fault, trying to change her behaviour and wanting to resolve things with her husband? Please lay off her, she's a real person - not just a handy example of what you perceive to be MN double standards. She's had a horrible experience which has devastated her. Even if you think she brought it on herself, gentle advice and support is more appropriate than berating and vilifying her.

Clicked post accidentally, but it does not matter how many times abusive incidents occur it is still not justifiable.

The op wanted advice,if it were me I would leave him because I would not want my childred to think abuse is normal, I would not want to live life second guessing myself and looking for excuses to rationalise abusive behaviour

Well said Jelly

Fairenuff not all of us think HE is in the wrong/SHE is in the right. Quite a few of us think the whole dynamic is dysfunctional and needs sorting out. That his outburst is a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Yes, Latte I agree with that too. I just don't know how OP is supposed to sort it out when he won't talk to her. That's her problem. Always has been, he just won't talk.

So she has two choices, put up with it, or leave. If he really, really, wanted the relationship to work, he would put in at least some effort in the communication department, because that is their biggest, possibly only, problem.

But he's not willing to do that, so where does it leave OP?

How rude.

Jengnr - I think you have just committed the gender version of Godwin's Law.

That has utterly undermined anything sensible you may have wanted to say!

I don't think I believe in "nagging". "Nagging" is just a word used by people to excuse themselves from not doing something, that they have repeatedly been asked to do.

OP, I have been in a situation like you; very busy hardworking stressed DH which meant I had to do every single bit of the packing. DH then put three year old in the car with no shoes on. And I was not happy, and had a real big go at him. And he got a bit defensive and then held his hands up.

Similarly, I have packed three big bags for a weekend away and left them on our bed for DH to bring down and put in the boot while I put the babies in the car. And when we got to our destination, (deepest Wales) he had only put two of them in the boot and the babies' bag, containing clothes, nappies and asthma medication was left behind. And that time I really did lose it, probably because I was stressed about the asthma suff. And yes he got defensive and then apologised.

At no time was punching me in the face mentioned. Because this is not how a decent man reacts to such a scenario, no matter how stressed/ defensive/ put upon he feels.

Really depressing thread.

Stop trying to make the OP feel in any way responsible for her husband threatening her with violence.

OP I believe he will escalate over time. That is my personal experience. You have done nothing, not one thing, to 'deserve' your husband threatening you with violence and terrifying you.

He needs to acknowledge what he has done and try very hard to make amends before you should even consider continuing in this relationship.

Lots of luck.

OP, I think you could try this.

Tell him that you want to talk about your relationship, specifically about the communication problems. He sees you as 'nagging', you see him as making a violent outburst. Both of these behaviours are trying to communicate something and neither are appropriate.

So, ask him when would be a good time for a chat. If he tries to fob you off, tell him that this is important for your relationship, you cannot live like this any more, it has come to a head with a threat of physical violence which has made you re-consider the whole set up.

If he still tries to put off talking, tell him that you see no alternative but to make an appointment with a solicitor with a view to separating.

If he still doesn't want to talk, then go ahead with the solicitor and start finding out where you stand.

If, at any point, he indicates that he would be willing to talk, just 'not now', then say 'Ok, that's fine but I need to know when, so lets make a time that suits us both'. Pin him down and mark it on the calendar.

If he tries to change it or stall it, go back to plan A with talk of separation and follow through.

If you actually do get to a point where you can talk the first job is to set ground rules. No shouting, no swearing, no saying things you don't mean, etc. All the things that are important to you both.

Agree that if either of you starts to feel angry, you will take a break and come back to it. Agree the points that you want to discuss and don't get sidetracked. If conversation goes off on a tangent say, 'we will talk about that later but right now we are discussing 'x'

There are all sorts of ways to improve you communication skills but it is going to take some effort on his behalf. You say he stayed with you because he didn't want to lose his children. If they mean that much to him, then he will make the effort. It will be hard for him and he probably does need counselling but this is something that he has to do for himself, you can't make him go.

Don't appease him.

He has crossed a line big time.

He needs to figure this out, and realise it is not on.

Ball is in his court really.

Terrible situation, can you go on holiday alone with kids? Or ask him to leave?

If you want to have any hope in solving this, you need to start with being angry. He has done something unacceptable. He needs to see that.

Zulu, if what you meAnt was threatening violence is not normal, then I agree. I was responding to you saying getting angry is not normal,when it is.

Fairenuff - that's what some of us have been saying since the beginning of the thread. Except, of course, it turned into an arguement with the 'LTB no matter what, and without discussion' brigade.

I hope the OP reads your post.

Mind you, she's barely posted on here today...