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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't work out how I feel about my bizarre relationship (long, sorry)

381 replies

snowiswhite · 19/08/2014 14:00

Have changed my name for this post. I don't really know where to start with this, and I fear it could turn out to be far too long, so will try to keep it as concise as possible (which isn't very). Apologies in advance if I leave out too many details.

Me and DP have been together since 2005. We have DD and DS, aged 4 and nearly 3. I fell head over heels for DP very shortly after meeting him: it really seemed we were soul mates, and I was sincerely convinced for many years that it was very, very rare for a couple to love each other as much as we loved each other.

Shortly after meeting DP, I received an email from someone I didn't know, warning me that DP was a liar and that I should check everything. It was a strange email in that there was info in there that could only have come from someone who had been spying on our instant messenger conversations and emails. To cut a long story short, it turned out to be from DP's ex-girlfriend, who somehow had gained access to his emails etc. She had used a fake name to send me the email. All in all, she hadn't given me any reason to believe she was a reliable source of information, and I dismissed her (after an angsty conversation with DP).

Over the next 6.5 years, I could never shake the sense that DP was lying to me - about everything. This seemed so implausible to me at the time - after all, who (outside of a soap opera) would lie about everything? - that I dismissed it, and attributed this feeling to the fact that DP's ex had written me that strange email near the start of our relationship. We went on to live together, to get engaged, and to have DD and DS.

To cut a very long story short(ish), it turned out that he was indeed lying to me about literally everything. The most shocking lie was pretending to be terminally ill for several years starting from around the time DD was conceived in early 2009 - even going as far to get a scar tattooed on. Aside from that, he would lie about our finances (I no longer had a bank account (because he saw to it, I later realised) and he pretended he was wealthy when in fact we were on benefits), his intentions to marry me (he 'made' literally hundreds of appointments for us to have a no-frills reg office wedding, all of which were cancelled due to unforeseen aspects of his 'treatment' - it later emerged that he was still married to his ex wife), and he borrowed £1000s from my family despite having no way of repaying them.

Throughout all this, I suspected him constantly, but dismissed my suspicions for various reasons. Partly it was because the lies simply didn't make sense: I was working on the assumption that if someone lies to you, it's because they stand to gain something by doing so, and as far as I could see, he stood to gain nothing (quite the reverse in many cases). Partly it was because, as mentioned above, I was afraid that I was being unduly influenced by his ex's email. And partly because, when you think the love of your life is dying, you are afraid that your mind is playing tricks on you: of course you would prefer to believe that they have made up their illness, because that would be preferable to them dying, so that is a reason to dismiss your suspicion that they aren't really ill.

So, fast forward to mid-2012. DD is 2.5 and DS is nearly a year old. For nearly 2 years, we have been living rent-free (or, rather, on DP's constant promise of paying rent) in a totally unsuitable and frankly dangerous-for-kids annex of the home of some lovely relatives of mine. I had not gone back to work after DD was born, and spent my days at home, in the middle of nowhere, with no car, no bank account, 2 small kids to look after, while DP goes out every single day for hospital treatment. All I would do with my life, every day, is feed the kids and take them out for walks. Almost every day I am expecting that we are going to have our no-frills wedding, and every time I hope that this time it will go ahead, but DP calls with some reason why it has had to be cancelled. And almost every day I am expecting that today, finally, after a zillion hiccups, our joint bank account will finally be sorted out and we can get access to DP's massive savings and repay my relatives the money we owe them - but this never happens (N.B. I am not mercenary, I didn't care about living the high life, I just wanted a normal life and not to be in debt to my relatives). Writing all this is making my chest constrict, and maybe you can imagine the enormous stress I was under. It was really difficult to cope with all this, but 'knowing' that DP had a far more difficult battle to fight (i.e. his illness) made me feel guilty for worrying about my own troubles.

Anyway, in mid-2012, DP's excuses and stories started to build up to the extent that they become really quite implausible, and DP himself was starting to behave more erratically, presumably with the stress of keeping all the lies going. Even so, it was only after a long conversation with one of my relatives that I started to confront the possibility that DP was lying about his illness. (An aside: by this point, everyone else in my family had worked out he was lying, but they never said anything about it to me. Either they felt awkward about it or they thought I had access to more information to support my belief in him. But the fact that they all seemed to believe him itself made me think he must be telling the truth, and made me feel guilty for doubting him.) I spoke to DP on the phone - he'd gone to the hospital (or rather pretended to) as usual - and I gently asked him if he was really ill, and that maybe the problem was psychological rather than physical. Immediately he admitted it, if 'admitted' is the right term (given that, as I'll explain, he had trouble distinguishing lies from reality) - he said something like, 'yes, maybe you're right'.

From here, it's quite difficult to explain. It has turned out not to be a case of him consciously and maliciously deciding to lie. He genuinely seemed to have come to believe his own lies. I went to the GP with him and he was referred for a mental health assessment, and diagnosed with dissociative disorder, depression, and anxiety. He had large gaps in his memory and seemed not very capable of distinguishing reality from the fantasy he had invented. Over the months and years since (yes, we are still together), it has turned out that some very awful things have happened to him, and that he has been lying about things since childhood as a way to make himself feel better about himself and more important than he believes he is (he basically believes he is worthless). I think that he has been lying so long that lying comes as naturally to him as telling the truth does to the rest of us, and so it is very difficult for him to stop: much of the time, the decision to lie isn't a conscious choice.

He genuinely struggles wiith this and tries his best to get better. He has taken all the help he has been offered in terms of counselling - which isn't very much, and in my non-professional opinion he hasn't been offered the right sort of thing (basically he sees a counsellor and talks about his past, whereas I think he should be having something like CBT that would focus on getting him to stop lying, which is the root of all our problems). When I realised that we were penniless and on benefits, I saw that I would need to go back to work. I am very highly qualified but work in an extremely competitive industry where jobs are hard to come by. We lived in a shitty council flat, on benefits, for a year while I worked every spare waking minute at trying to get back to work, and eventually I did get a job. Last autumn we moved out of the shitty council estate and into a privately rented house in a nicer area.

My family, understandably, want little to do with DP after all this came out. However, whereas people tended to assume that he'd just leave after he'd been rumbled, he has not. While I've been working, he has tirelessly been a full-time dad. He is a wonderful father: far more patient than me, he adores our children and fills their days with fun things: they have planted flowers in the garden together, learned to ride bikes, etc, and he is involved with their pre-school as a committee member. At the same time he keeps our home in order, does all our grocery shopping, cleans and does the washing, etc. His only 'me time' without the kids are a night in the pub once a week with some friends who know nothing about his strange history (he doesn't get drunk, and doesn't drink much in general), and playing sport once a week during the summer. I am not trying to paint a romantic picture of him here - what I am trying to do is make the point that, whilst the lying etc might make it easy to view him as a villain, he has done his utmost to do the right thing since the problem has been identified.

The problem, though, is that he does still lie sometimes. I can't trust him not to. Sometimes he will admit it out of the blue, without me having pressured him to tell the truth, and he will be full of remorse. But sometimes when he lies, I know he is lying, but he won't admit it - and maybe can't admit it. He is not getting the right sort of mental health help to stop this, and we can't afford private treatment at the moment. And I'm left feeling that I'm dealing with it alone ... I don't really discuss it with people, and about a year ago he admitted it to his mum (which was a big deal because his mum has been through hell for various reasons recently, so he'd put off telling her). I was so pleased when he told his mum because I thought I'd have someone to talk to about it, but it hasn't worked out like that. His mum said she just needed time to digest it, then she and I would have a proper talk. But it's never happened. In the year since she found out, she's visited various family members who needed her help with various things, but she still hasn't tried to get to grips with what DP has been doing. And whilst I konw it must be upsetting for her, it also makes me see that maybe this is why DP is the way he is - he certainly doesn't seem high up her list of priorities. I feel like I've just been left holding the baby, so to speak: I'm dealing with it alone.

I never tell anyone about this. When the lies came to light, I had various friends who believed that DP was seriously ill, so I did tell them the truth in order to put them right. I rarely see them and they don't ask me about DP, perhaps understandably (what would they say?!). Everyone else - e.g. people I work with - just thinks we are a normal couple. I feel a bit like I lead a double life.

And now, I don't know whether I want this any more. I'm so tired of it all. I will always love DP, and I think he is a wonderful father, but the head-over-heels aspect of my feelings for him have gone, and I don't know if they'll come back. It's like the person I loved never existed, and whilst in the early days I was desperate to get that person back, I've sort of given up now. I know he still lies, and I really don't want it to be my problem any more - I don't want to live like this, with the stress of not being able to trust him. But, at the same time, I sort of can't imagine life without him. The children adore him. I care deeply for him and want to help him get better - I think he deserves to get better, he certainly struggles so hard with everything. I don't know what I want.

Complicating my feelings is the thought that, even if I did want out, I don't know how to get out. We live in a very expensive part of the country, and if we broke up we would have to pay for 2 households on my salary. I'm nearly 40, and hoping to buy a house in a year, otherwise I'll be too old to get a mortgage. DP could work, but we'd have to pay for childcare in that case, so wouldn't necessarily be better off. DP has occasionally said that we're not a normal couple and that if I want he will move out and find somewhere alone (presumably a crappy council bedsit), but still come over every day and look after the children. This itself breaks my heart ... his self-esteem is so low that it wouldn't even enter his head to fight for the children to live with him. He believes he deserves so little.

I have sort of lost track of what I was even wanting to ask with this post. I guess I just want to tell someone my story so that maybe, in the discussion that follows (if anyone has read this far!) I might get some clarity to my feelings.

OP posts:
fleasRus · 06/11/2014 17:27

Dear op.
I have also been following your thread and can see that you've made huge steps from where you were Thanks
I understand that you are attempting to gently move him along. However, do please, please take note of some of the warnings from posters about the possibility of danger to your children from this man. Please 'think the unthinkable'. It doesn't mean that it would happen but you do need to steel yourself to the possibility that this serial liar and manipulator who has destroyed his mother's life amongst others without any compunction or remorse may be quite capable of doing active harm to you and / or your children if his wishes are thwarted. I understand what you have said about how he is as a carer to the children. But try to imagine his desperation as he realises that he really has to go and he can no longer influence you. Can you guarantee that he will not turn on you or them?
I know we're all strangers on an internet forum but upthread there are some truly tragic tales from people who were left with seriously disordered parents. Could you not take a couple of (secret) sick days from work and use the time to urgently consult a solicitor and go and talk perhaps to the Police and social services to support you in getting rid of him NOW. Thousands of women up and go with their children or make sure that their partners leave when things are at crisis point. It can be done - it's awful, painful, difficult and more and must seem so daunting. But you have already made a huge move and perhaps it's now time to make a clean break so that you can guarantee your children's emotional and personal safety and wellbeing. It just can't be guaranteed with him there.
You've asked for advice and I can't see any other realistic option other than a swift clean break backed by legal powers. Wishing you strength.

BalloonSlayer · 07/11/2014 08:11

"QuintsBombWithAWiew congrats on being the biggest moron I've encountered all year. Do you also think rape victims who don't go to the police are 'complicit' in subsequent rapes by the same rapist, I wonder? Seriously, go fuck yourself."

That's a revoltingly unequal analogy, Goth. We all know the reasons rape victims don't go to the police, and no one has suggested you go to the police anyway (apart from to get him out, which is not the same as reporting him for a crime).

A more suitable analogy, if you are going to be insensitive enough to use rape as an example, would be: if someone raped you then started dating a friend or family member, wouldn't it be your moral duty to give them some sort of warning in case he raped them too?

socially · 07/11/2014 08:55

I don't think hectoring the OP is useful here.

She needs support. Banging on and on in an insensitive or aggressive way doesn't help anyone.

Christmascandles · 07/11/2014 10:14

Just caught up with your thread OP and you're scaring me....
After everything he's done, after all that you know and his capabilities, you are allowing him three months......

You've done enough OP you really have.
Please, please don't give him time. Time to concoct a story about you.
Please OP.. I hear what you say about the house. But it's only a house and you can find another closer to where you work.
He's manipulating you again.....

Sending you strength and Thanks

Iamcuriousyellow · 07/11/2014 10:31

I agree, hectoring the poor OP is mean, but everyone here is so concerned about her children - and I am honestly puzzled as to why she seems to be under such a spell with this man. As if her priority is appeasing him to the point where she is almost losing sight of the fact that the little ones need her the most. This has got to be one of the most awful situations I've seen on here. Wish Goth better times, and soon.

CinnabarRed · 07/11/2014 10:57

Does his mother understand that this isn't just a temporary hiccough - a delayed completion date on the house purchase, say - but a permanent state of homelessness?

Is his mother still labouring under the impression that he had a non-existent heart condition?

alphabook · 07/11/2014 11:57

I agree that you do still seem to be under his spell. And I'm speaking as someone who kicked out her DH at the beginning of the year the day I found out he was a compulsive liar.

3 months is too long. You need to get him out ASAP. It's not your problem where he goes, he can sleep on someone's living room floor like his poor mother until he sorts himself out.

Why are you trying so hard to be reasonable? You're not going to win any awards for it, he will throw everything back in your face. In 3 months time you'll be in the same position as you are now. He doesn't deserve your kindness and the longer he stays in your house the longer you and the children are at risk.

You also need to start telling the people in your life the truth. Stop covering for him. Once the truth is out you will be able to see things much more clearly, trust me.

TheLyingOldBitchAndHerWardrobe · 07/11/2014 12:01

I think you'd have a lot to gain from speaking frankly and at length to his mother, niece and exes.

AnyFucker · 07/11/2014 19:21

This bloke isn't the only one leading a life of lies, fraud and manipulation here's another

zippey · 11/11/2014 15:25

Just wondering, I might have missed it, but you posted that you were giving him 1 week to come clean to his mother. Did that happen? I know you have said that she sold her house and is now homeless. How did she take the news that there was no new house for her?

I think the OP has made great strides and its been a long and painful journey. You've had a lot of advice, but its the OP who needs to decide on how she wants to proceed. Good luck!

AdoraBell · 11/11/2014 20:24

Similar To Marzipan I am also the child of an abusive father and a mother who put up with him for far too long because she was doing it "for the children"

I sleep walked into an abusive relationship in my teens which I spent 5 years trying To Exit and only finally managed it when he realised that if he'd stood in front of me and swallowed thousands of pills I would have watched him die before walking away. And I am a person who will Go out of their way To help someone.

It took me another 20 years To seek the therapy I needed, and 3 more years in therapy To begin To recover from my childhood. The first thing I said To my psychologist was "I hate my mother"

Please don't let him drag this on for months and most certainly don't allow him To tell people you had an affair. Your children do not deserve that and niether do you. You've come a long way and now you need To keep your momentum.

And don't lose sight of the fact that he knowingly caused his mother To be homeless. A person who does that to their parent will also do it To their child.

theonlygothinthevillage · 02/09/2015 18:53

For anyone interested, I wanted to post an update about this. Those who have followed the thread will know that I dumped this fucked up man last October. I gave him until February to move out, which he did, and now he comes 3 times a week to look after the children while I am at work. Also, just after breaking up with him, I had an almost-involvement with an unhappily married man who I was nuts about but refused to see as soon as I discovered that he wasn't going to leave his wife.

For the past couple of months I have had an absolutely amazing, wonderful new boyfriend. I have known him for a while, before I broke up with my ex, but only realised I fancied him recently. So I told him and it turned out that he felt the same way :D :D :D :D :D We don't live that close but we are in touch a lot and see each other when we can. Recently he met my children and they all loved each other :D He knows all about my ex, and about the MM. Shortly before his last visit, I told ex-P about him. Initially he was really annoyed but when he calmed down he said that he accepts I have to move on etc ... I almost felt sorry for him. For a while this even improved our relations.

As for the MM, I haven't seen him but he is often in touch by email or instant messaging and we chat a bit. There is no hint of romance or innuendo any more, he just talks about trivia ... it makes me feel quite sad because he is obviously lonely. I don't feel anything for him any more, except sadness about the lonely existence he has chosen, but that's his business. My lovely new man knows about this messaging.

It is still early days, but I feel a bit like he is my reward for rejecting relationships that were not good enough - both my ex-P and the MM. I felt for ages like I was in a hole and would never get out. I'm so glad I didn't settle for less. I wanted to post again here to let other people know that there is life (really wonderful life!) after nightmarish relationships.

Spotifymuse · 02/09/2015 19:13

It's August.
5 months after you finally escaped from a deeply dysfunctional relationship.
And you're already on your second relationship with a man that you've introduced your children to?
Seriously?

featherglass · 02/09/2015 20:17

Dear OP,
Well done on finally leaving your exP and moving on.
I wonder whether you have taken any advice about his influence on your children? If he as big a liar, manipulative and uncaring about others as you portrayed him upthread, why is he having such consistent unsupervised access to your children? Have you had some advice from mental health professionals about the impact of his illness on the children?
Just wondering...

Stillunexpected · 02/09/2015 20:54

Oh dear, why is this manipulative liar looking after your children three times a week? Why are you allowing him access to your house? What ages are your children now - old enough for him to lie to them? What on earth do you think he is telling them about you, him, your families, their friends, their schools etc etc while you are not there? Just don't be surprised to come home some day and have one of the children tell you that a family member has died or that Daddy is going to be an astronaut or is taking them to Disneyland next week or something.

As for your own relationships, I think you have spent so long under the influence of this evil man that you can no longer discern right from wrong, good behaviour from unacceptable. Please try to take some time out and just be YOU rather than trying to be involved with someone else. And yes, too early for your children to meet the new man - wonder what twisted stories your ex is telling the children about him?!

GammonAndEgg · 02/09/2015 23:06

Well I for one am delighted to hear your update! You go, girl!

Regularhiding · 03/09/2015 00:46

I too am delighted.
fantastic news. I hope it all works out for you and your loved ones x

ThisIsFolkGirl · 03/09/2015 06:25

Op, I'm pleased you kicked him out, but I too am a little concerned about the speed with which this has all moved.

I know for the first few months after my marriage ended, I was so elated to be free that nothing could have dampened my spirits. I was on top of the world. I did some fun and exciting things. It didn't last because reality re emerges at some point. Have you had some counselling for the impact of this on you?

And you are leaving the children with someone who has been diagnosed with a serious mental disorder.

By all means have some fun, but don't be too quick/keen to involve your children with this new man. They are still very much involved with their dad, a man you have chosen to make a break from. Don't make them part of something else too.

ThisIsFolkGirl · 03/09/2015 06:32

Just to clarify my last point, I have depression and anxiety and I can seethat, despite my best effirts, I know this has some impact on my children. I can see it in occasion. So this isn't a case of vilifying MH, but of saying that just because you are out of it and it is no longer impacting on you, your children are not.

Coolforthesummer · 03/09/2015 08:22

Your ex seems to have taken your new relationship/s remarkably well.

Coolforthesummer · 03/09/2015 08:24

I hope it works out for you op. Sorry to sound cynical but you have moved on so quickly and easily be careful that youre not setting yourself up. (Been there myself post-divorce.)

Devilishpyjamas · 03/09/2015 11:31

Please get counselling. You seem to have a need to be in relationships? I have a friend like that & she just goes from one fucked up relationship to another - I wish she could just spend some time alone.

I am pleased to managed to get him
to leave. Like others I am concerned that he has so much unsupervised access to the children. How do you protect them from his lying (I presume that hasn't changed).

Is his mother now housed? Is she aware that he is a pathological liar?

Good luck OP.

Pandora97 · 03/09/2015 14:44

I'm pleased that you're so happy but I would warn you to be careful with this new relationship. I don't want to rain on your parade but I've been in relationships where I've known the person a while, think they're the best thing ever and why didn't we get together before and then it ends up going horribly wrong. Not that this relationship will go that way and I really hope it doesn't but I'd just advise you not to take it too quickly. That's been my mistake in the past.

cailindana · 03/09/2015 15:45

Good god your poor children.

theonlygothinthevillage · 03/09/2015 15:55

I am a little bit surprised by some of the negativity here, but maybe I can understand it ...

I don't feel like I've moved on fast and carelessly. I broke up with XP last October. I had an opportunity of something with someone unsuitable but didn't go for it despite liking him an awful lot - I don't think that's the behaviour of someone desperate to be in a relationship or jumping from one bad thing to another. I haven't let my heart rule my head. Things are going slowly and steadily with the new man. We can't see each other that often because he lives a long way away. He came to stay for a weekend and I introduced him to the children as a friend. Hardly any more traumatising than introducing them to any other friend of mine ... he is not constantly in their lives.

Anyway ... to clear up a few things, XP wasn't diagnosed with anything. I went to the psychiatric assessment with him last summer, and the psychiatrist told him that there is nothing wrong with him. He's just a liar. His mother knows he is a liar because I told her. She has chosen to try to rebuild things with him, not that he's particularly receptive.

As for the issue of me allowing XP unsupervised access to the children ... I think I would feel I am doing wrong whatever I do. He actually looks after them very well, although occasionally he says things to them that I find alarming - the things he does are not deliberately evil, but tend to be a result of him having no empathy or insight into other people's emotions, so he doesn't realise what is wrong with saying certain things (like saying to the children that if they are naughty he won't come any more). So, do I try to foster a relationship between him and them, or do I try to cut all ties? Many of you think I should do the latter, but I want to be able to say to the children in the future that I did all I could to ensure that they had a relationship with their father. I don't want them to hate me for cutting him out of their lives, given how much they love him. I do tell them that he tells a lot of lies and that this is wrong.

Thanks to those who wished me well :)

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