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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't work out how I feel about my bizarre relationship (long, sorry)

381 replies

snowiswhite · 19/08/2014 14:00

Have changed my name for this post. I don't really know where to start with this, and I fear it could turn out to be far too long, so will try to keep it as concise as possible (which isn't very). Apologies in advance if I leave out too many details.

Me and DP have been together since 2005. We have DD and DS, aged 4 and nearly 3. I fell head over heels for DP very shortly after meeting him: it really seemed we were soul mates, and I was sincerely convinced for many years that it was very, very rare for a couple to love each other as much as we loved each other.

Shortly after meeting DP, I received an email from someone I didn't know, warning me that DP was a liar and that I should check everything. It was a strange email in that there was info in there that could only have come from someone who had been spying on our instant messenger conversations and emails. To cut a long story short, it turned out to be from DP's ex-girlfriend, who somehow had gained access to his emails etc. She had used a fake name to send me the email. All in all, she hadn't given me any reason to believe she was a reliable source of information, and I dismissed her (after an angsty conversation with DP).

Over the next 6.5 years, I could never shake the sense that DP was lying to me - about everything. This seemed so implausible to me at the time - after all, who (outside of a soap opera) would lie about everything? - that I dismissed it, and attributed this feeling to the fact that DP's ex had written me that strange email near the start of our relationship. We went on to live together, to get engaged, and to have DD and DS.

To cut a very long story short(ish), it turned out that he was indeed lying to me about literally everything. The most shocking lie was pretending to be terminally ill for several years starting from around the time DD was conceived in early 2009 - even going as far to get a scar tattooed on. Aside from that, he would lie about our finances (I no longer had a bank account (because he saw to it, I later realised) and he pretended he was wealthy when in fact we were on benefits), his intentions to marry me (he 'made' literally hundreds of appointments for us to have a no-frills reg office wedding, all of which were cancelled due to unforeseen aspects of his 'treatment' - it later emerged that he was still married to his ex wife), and he borrowed £1000s from my family despite having no way of repaying them.

Throughout all this, I suspected him constantly, but dismissed my suspicions for various reasons. Partly it was because the lies simply didn't make sense: I was working on the assumption that if someone lies to you, it's because they stand to gain something by doing so, and as far as I could see, he stood to gain nothing (quite the reverse in many cases). Partly it was because, as mentioned above, I was afraid that I was being unduly influenced by his ex's email. And partly because, when you think the love of your life is dying, you are afraid that your mind is playing tricks on you: of course you would prefer to believe that they have made up their illness, because that would be preferable to them dying, so that is a reason to dismiss your suspicion that they aren't really ill.

So, fast forward to mid-2012. DD is 2.5 and DS is nearly a year old. For nearly 2 years, we have been living rent-free (or, rather, on DP's constant promise of paying rent) in a totally unsuitable and frankly dangerous-for-kids annex of the home of some lovely relatives of mine. I had not gone back to work after DD was born, and spent my days at home, in the middle of nowhere, with no car, no bank account, 2 small kids to look after, while DP goes out every single day for hospital treatment. All I would do with my life, every day, is feed the kids and take them out for walks. Almost every day I am expecting that we are going to have our no-frills wedding, and every time I hope that this time it will go ahead, but DP calls with some reason why it has had to be cancelled. And almost every day I am expecting that today, finally, after a zillion hiccups, our joint bank account will finally be sorted out and we can get access to DP's massive savings and repay my relatives the money we owe them - but this never happens (N.B. I am not mercenary, I didn't care about living the high life, I just wanted a normal life and not to be in debt to my relatives). Writing all this is making my chest constrict, and maybe you can imagine the enormous stress I was under. It was really difficult to cope with all this, but 'knowing' that DP had a far more difficult battle to fight (i.e. his illness) made me feel guilty for worrying about my own troubles.

Anyway, in mid-2012, DP's excuses and stories started to build up to the extent that they become really quite implausible, and DP himself was starting to behave more erratically, presumably with the stress of keeping all the lies going. Even so, it was only after a long conversation with one of my relatives that I started to confront the possibility that DP was lying about his illness. (An aside: by this point, everyone else in my family had worked out he was lying, but they never said anything about it to me. Either they felt awkward about it or they thought I had access to more information to support my belief in him. But the fact that they all seemed to believe him itself made me think he must be telling the truth, and made me feel guilty for doubting him.) I spoke to DP on the phone - he'd gone to the hospital (or rather pretended to) as usual - and I gently asked him if he was really ill, and that maybe the problem was psychological rather than physical. Immediately he admitted it, if 'admitted' is the right term (given that, as I'll explain, he had trouble distinguishing lies from reality) - he said something like, 'yes, maybe you're right'.

From here, it's quite difficult to explain. It has turned out not to be a case of him consciously and maliciously deciding to lie. He genuinely seemed to have come to believe his own lies. I went to the GP with him and he was referred for a mental health assessment, and diagnosed with dissociative disorder, depression, and anxiety. He had large gaps in his memory and seemed not very capable of distinguishing reality from the fantasy he had invented. Over the months and years since (yes, we are still together), it has turned out that some very awful things have happened to him, and that he has been lying about things since childhood as a way to make himself feel better about himself and more important than he believes he is (he basically believes he is worthless). I think that he has been lying so long that lying comes as naturally to him as telling the truth does to the rest of us, and so it is very difficult for him to stop: much of the time, the decision to lie isn't a conscious choice.

He genuinely struggles wiith this and tries his best to get better. He has taken all the help he has been offered in terms of counselling - which isn't very much, and in my non-professional opinion he hasn't been offered the right sort of thing (basically he sees a counsellor and talks about his past, whereas I think he should be having something like CBT that would focus on getting him to stop lying, which is the root of all our problems). When I realised that we were penniless and on benefits, I saw that I would need to go back to work. I am very highly qualified but work in an extremely competitive industry where jobs are hard to come by. We lived in a shitty council flat, on benefits, for a year while I worked every spare waking minute at trying to get back to work, and eventually I did get a job. Last autumn we moved out of the shitty council estate and into a privately rented house in a nicer area.

My family, understandably, want little to do with DP after all this came out. However, whereas people tended to assume that he'd just leave after he'd been rumbled, he has not. While I've been working, he has tirelessly been a full-time dad. He is a wonderful father: far more patient than me, he adores our children and fills their days with fun things: they have planted flowers in the garden together, learned to ride bikes, etc, and he is involved with their pre-school as a committee member. At the same time he keeps our home in order, does all our grocery shopping, cleans and does the washing, etc. His only 'me time' without the kids are a night in the pub once a week with some friends who know nothing about his strange history (he doesn't get drunk, and doesn't drink much in general), and playing sport once a week during the summer. I am not trying to paint a romantic picture of him here - what I am trying to do is make the point that, whilst the lying etc might make it easy to view him as a villain, he has done his utmost to do the right thing since the problem has been identified.

The problem, though, is that he does still lie sometimes. I can't trust him not to. Sometimes he will admit it out of the blue, without me having pressured him to tell the truth, and he will be full of remorse. But sometimes when he lies, I know he is lying, but he won't admit it - and maybe can't admit it. He is not getting the right sort of mental health help to stop this, and we can't afford private treatment at the moment. And I'm left feeling that I'm dealing with it alone ... I don't really discuss it with people, and about a year ago he admitted it to his mum (which was a big deal because his mum has been through hell for various reasons recently, so he'd put off telling her). I was so pleased when he told his mum because I thought I'd have someone to talk to about it, but it hasn't worked out like that. His mum said she just needed time to digest it, then she and I would have a proper talk. But it's never happened. In the year since she found out, she's visited various family members who needed her help with various things, but she still hasn't tried to get to grips with what DP has been doing. And whilst I konw it must be upsetting for her, it also makes me see that maybe this is why DP is the way he is - he certainly doesn't seem high up her list of priorities. I feel like I've just been left holding the baby, so to speak: I'm dealing with it alone.

I never tell anyone about this. When the lies came to light, I had various friends who believed that DP was seriously ill, so I did tell them the truth in order to put them right. I rarely see them and they don't ask me about DP, perhaps understandably (what would they say?!). Everyone else - e.g. people I work with - just thinks we are a normal couple. I feel a bit like I lead a double life.

And now, I don't know whether I want this any more. I'm so tired of it all. I will always love DP, and I think he is a wonderful father, but the head-over-heels aspect of my feelings for him have gone, and I don't know if they'll come back. It's like the person I loved never existed, and whilst in the early days I was desperate to get that person back, I've sort of given up now. I know he still lies, and I really don't want it to be my problem any more - I don't want to live like this, with the stress of not being able to trust him. But, at the same time, I sort of can't imagine life without him. The children adore him. I care deeply for him and want to help him get better - I think he deserves to get better, he certainly struggles so hard with everything. I don't know what I want.

Complicating my feelings is the thought that, even if I did want out, I don't know how to get out. We live in a very expensive part of the country, and if we broke up we would have to pay for 2 households on my salary. I'm nearly 40, and hoping to buy a house in a year, otherwise I'll be too old to get a mortgage. DP could work, but we'd have to pay for childcare in that case, so wouldn't necessarily be better off. DP has occasionally said that we're not a normal couple and that if I want he will move out and find somewhere alone (presumably a crappy council bedsit), but still come over every day and look after the children. This itself breaks my heart ... his self-esteem is so low that it wouldn't even enter his head to fight for the children to live with him. He believes he deserves so little.

I have sort of lost track of what I was even wanting to ask with this post. I guess I just want to tell someone my story so that maybe, in the discussion that follows (if anyone has read this far!) I might get some clarity to my feelings.

OP posts:
MexicanSpringtime · 06/11/2014 06:53

OP, you really have done so much for this man already, honestly.

And I understand that you like your house and it is difficult to give it up, but a house is supposed to be haven for you and your children, not an albatross around your necks.

Surely there are ways of amicably breaking a lease under extenuating circumstances.

IDontDoIroning · 06/11/2014 07:17

I think I asked up thread what had happened yo his mother on the basis of the non existence house purchase and I might have missed an earlier reply to me but the OP said to another poster

Is there a reason why he can't go and stay with his mum?

Yes, he lied to his mum that he had bought her a house, so she gave up whatever accommodation she had and is sleeping in her sister's living room. She has had to go to the council to declare herself homeless.

That's unbelievable.

So he's quite happy to lie to such an extent his own mother becomes homeless -OP do you honestly think he will really care about your or the children's wellbeing over the next 3 months ?
Do you honestly think that a man who would willingly see his own mother homeless in order to continue a lie to the ultimate conclusion rather than own up to his lies and deceit wouldnt lie to his children?

I can't see it and in fact your giving him 3 more months to lie and manipulate you the children and everyone else around you. Get him out now and don't ever believe a single word he ever says. If at all possible go as far as you can away and never see him again.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 06/11/2014 07:41

You are giving him far too much credit and assuming he will behave reasonably. Isn't it obvious that he won't?

IrenetheQuaint · 06/11/2014 07:54

Look, OP... This is a man who thinks normal rules don't apply to him. He won't think, 'Oh, three months, that means I should start having an initial look and analysing my situation now.'

He'll think, 'Oh, that was easy!' and give no further thought to the matter, on the assumption that when the time is up he'll be able to manipulate you into another three months.

gemdrop84 · 06/11/2014 08:13

I'm so angry for his mother! Completely unbelievable! Personally I'd be straight on the phone to the police and wouldn't want him anywhere near my children.

QuintsBombWithAWiew · 06/11/2014 08:14

Or he will spend the next three months putting as much effort into pretending he is flat hunting, as he has been going in and out of hospital and for therapy.

QuintsBombWithAWiew · 06/11/2014 08:17

Well, the op is complicit in making this elderly lady homeless, as she has been enabling his lies to others, by agreeing to not let his relatives know that he is spinning a web of deceit around everything he does.

I worry for your children.

Jux · 06/11/2014 09:05

Goth, IrenetheQuaint has it. He put years and years and years of effort into the hospital thing, and now he's at a loose end with time and energy on his hands. He is not going to give another thought to his housing situation until the next time it is brought up and then he'll lie. He's pulled the wool over your eyes, and everyone else's, for so long, that he's not going to stop now.

Look for somewhere else to live closer to work and move the children and yourself there without him. It may not be so nice initially, smaller, not so nicely situated and so on, but you can change that given time and without the dead weight on your back.

JaceyBee · 06/11/2014 09:10

Hi OP, been lurking since you first started this thread and I'm really pleased you're doing the right thing now. I also feel that one month would be much better than three, I just think the atmosphere at home will become unbearable and he's bound to start acting out in some way to try and manipulate you and get back in control. I agree with mamadoc in that I predict a 'suicide attempt' of some sort. I think you need to be working towards getting him ok asap, where he goes is his own problem. He's not a vulnerable adult, he's perfectly capable of finding himself other accommodation.

theonlygothinthevillage · 06/11/2014 09:13

This reply has been deleted

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GoatsDoRoam · 06/11/2014 09:26

Being an enabler means making it possible for another to avoid the consequences of their own behaviour.

This is what you are doing, in many ways.

Yes you have been a victim of his lies, and you are to be pitied for that.
But now that you know him to be a lier, do not shield him from the consequences of his own behaviour. They are his to bear.

QuintsBombWithAWiew · 06/11/2014 09:30

I am sorry, but do you not in any way see that agreeing to keep his lies a secret has enabled him to continue his lies, and continuing to do so is still enabling him?

You have been defending him all the time, believing in him, minimizing what he is doing. Refusing to see the effects of his lies, and refusing to acknowledge that he might not be suited to look after your children. You dont think he will do it to others, like your children. He has done it to his mum. Yet you want to keep him in your life as free child care.

I think you need to examine your own role in this, and find a way to break this co-dependent cycle, but most importantly stay safe, and keep your children safe.

GoodtoBetter · 06/11/2014 09:34

Just because you've told him three months, you don't need to stick to it, you know.
It's your house, you are not married. You can ask him to leave right this minute. You don't owe him anything.

FunkyBoldRibena · 06/11/2014 09:36

OP - you are up against a master manipulator and you are not equipped to deal with him. Do you really really think we are all wrong?

We are not saying this for fun. You really need to understand that if you call the police on 4th Feb; and he could so easily say 'she allegedly found out about it back in October and didn't kick me out then. I think she is losing the plot. I think she should be sectioned. Here, this is how she has been behaving >cue a web of lies

QuintsBombWithAWiew · 06/11/2014 09:37

I suggest you speak to the police about your situation as soon as possible so they can log it on file. Let them know that you are ending the relationship and can be prepared in case he just flips and becomes seriously dangerous.

QuintsBombWithAWiew · 06/11/2014 09:37

Calling the police on the 5th February wont do much good in the long run, if the only person to know about his lies is you, and none of his behavior has been recorded anywhere.

Do you seriously think that the police will come to a home and remove a sahd for good just because his partner has decided she wont put up with lies any more?

FunkyBoldRibena · 06/11/2014 09:40

And you could change the locks today and be rid of him.

GoodtoBetter · 06/11/2014 09:53

Is part of it that deep down you don't want to be rid of him?

ada09 · 06/11/2014 10:02

OP what have your DC been told about why their grandmother has moved out of her home to sleep on her sisters living room floor? And what if anything have the DC been told about their fathers role in making that happen?

I'm sure that you don't want to involve the DC in the web of lies but won't it be tricky if they find out and start asking questions?

Mmmporridge · 06/11/2014 10:24

Hi goth I have read a lot of your thread, although not all. I have to say I have some experience of a pathological liar, and the whole thing makes my blood run cold.

I have a serious worry about your plan, and I'm not sure why no one else is mentioning it - your ex-DP is the children's primary carer. Not you. So if it came to a court deciding about the residence of the children in the event of you two ceasing to love together (which you appear to be planning), then the court likes to "maintain the status quo" and that would involve giving residence to your ex-DP, not you.

My concern is that you can kick him out, but can't stop him taking the kids with him when he goes. By giving him 3 months your giving him time to wise up and get his ducks in a row. You really need to get the status quo changed now - he needs to stop being the main carer or you may well have a massive problem. And it's no good putting your faith in the system that they will get it right, because whilst you know he's a master manipulator, they don't, and he will do what he does and manipulate and convince them he's the poor sahd with a head case for an ex-DP and he just wants to care for his children...plus you seem to think he's no harm to them as a parent but he is, how could he not be and so what would you tell the court was the reason you should have the kids and change the status quo?!

You've really got to start thinking this all through and find ways to disentangle yourself from him quickly.

CiderwithBuda · 06/11/2014 10:31

Please don't give him three months. You can change your mind.

You KNOW what he is capable of. He deliberately made his mother had homeless. He lies. He will always lie. It is how his brain works. He does not operate in the logical way that most of us do. You need to protect yourself and your children.

You need legal advice and quickly.

I really would be afraid that he would find someway to take the children away from you. You need to protect them.

You are trying too hard to be nice and reasonable. But you can't be nice and reasonable dealing with someone like him. You really can't.

Your children will adjust to him not being around. Yes they will miss him but they will adjust.

Please listen to everyone.

Iamcuriousyellow · 06/11/2014 10:32

Funky has it right I think. I've read the thread every time it comes up again and am astonished at the life he leads you but you've had such good advice and support I didn't feel I had much to add. But I am puzzled as to why you work so hard to protect him from the consequences of his actions? Why in earth would you give him carte blanche to invent another huge lie about why you split? I just don't get it. I really don't. If you go along with it then you are a liar too, to friends and family, just as he is. Maybe he's eroded your sense of what's right, but please don't collude in misrepresenting yourself.

And three months is not sensible. I know you rely on him for childcare, but who knows what tissues of lies, complete with compelling backstory, he could invent in that time.

Marzipanface · 06/11/2014 11:06

MamaDoc and JumpAndTwist give excellent advice.

My Dad was and is your partner. My mum made excuses and enabled his behaviour on the basis he was mentally ill and he loved me and my siblings. He did love us but that didn't make us immune from threats his violence when my mum finally ended the relationship. Now I am older, he still lies to me all the time. Lies on top of lies.

He broke me and my siblings. I have hugely expensive counselling to mend myself and to cope with fallout of my frightening and dysfunctional childhood, all because my mum put him first for years.

FWIW my Dad has a diagnosis of a variety of personality disorders.

nicenewdusters · 06/11/2014 14:54

Saw your post for the first time today and read from start to finish, it's been like watching a gathering storm. Am so sorry for you, and amazed at how far you've come. Please don't try to be the person who didn't throw your children's dad out, be the mum who kicked his arse to the kerb to protect them and give you all a new start.

I 100% believe you are doing what you think is best, I'm sure we all think that. However you're in a world where the normal rules don't apply. I would speak to the police, give them the background and ask them to remove him. I'm sure he'll unleash a whirlwind of s**t, but he's been doing that for years, so what's new ?

Marzipanface - I'm so sorry, there are no words.

Blowmeonelastkiss · 06/11/2014 16:40

What do you think the police are going to do on February 5th? They won't respond to a call out of the blue to 'evict' him?

When I called the police to get my ex to leave my home, they made me leave (and he wasn't even living in the family home at the time.)

I was later advised that they shouldn't have done that but they put a lot of pressure on me and I was in such a distressed state I did as I was told.

Be really careful.