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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't work out how I feel about my bizarre relationship (long, sorry)

381 replies

snowiswhite · 19/08/2014 14:00

Have changed my name for this post. I don't really know where to start with this, and I fear it could turn out to be far too long, so will try to keep it as concise as possible (which isn't very). Apologies in advance if I leave out too many details.

Me and DP have been together since 2005. We have DD and DS, aged 4 and nearly 3. I fell head over heels for DP very shortly after meeting him: it really seemed we were soul mates, and I was sincerely convinced for many years that it was very, very rare for a couple to love each other as much as we loved each other.

Shortly after meeting DP, I received an email from someone I didn't know, warning me that DP was a liar and that I should check everything. It was a strange email in that there was info in there that could only have come from someone who had been spying on our instant messenger conversations and emails. To cut a long story short, it turned out to be from DP's ex-girlfriend, who somehow had gained access to his emails etc. She had used a fake name to send me the email. All in all, she hadn't given me any reason to believe she was a reliable source of information, and I dismissed her (after an angsty conversation with DP).

Over the next 6.5 years, I could never shake the sense that DP was lying to me - about everything. This seemed so implausible to me at the time - after all, who (outside of a soap opera) would lie about everything? - that I dismissed it, and attributed this feeling to the fact that DP's ex had written me that strange email near the start of our relationship. We went on to live together, to get engaged, and to have DD and DS.

To cut a very long story short(ish), it turned out that he was indeed lying to me about literally everything. The most shocking lie was pretending to be terminally ill for several years starting from around the time DD was conceived in early 2009 - even going as far to get a scar tattooed on. Aside from that, he would lie about our finances (I no longer had a bank account (because he saw to it, I later realised) and he pretended he was wealthy when in fact we were on benefits), his intentions to marry me (he 'made' literally hundreds of appointments for us to have a no-frills reg office wedding, all of which were cancelled due to unforeseen aspects of his 'treatment' - it later emerged that he was still married to his ex wife), and he borrowed £1000s from my family despite having no way of repaying them.

Throughout all this, I suspected him constantly, but dismissed my suspicions for various reasons. Partly it was because the lies simply didn't make sense: I was working on the assumption that if someone lies to you, it's because they stand to gain something by doing so, and as far as I could see, he stood to gain nothing (quite the reverse in many cases). Partly it was because, as mentioned above, I was afraid that I was being unduly influenced by his ex's email. And partly because, when you think the love of your life is dying, you are afraid that your mind is playing tricks on you: of course you would prefer to believe that they have made up their illness, because that would be preferable to them dying, so that is a reason to dismiss your suspicion that they aren't really ill.

So, fast forward to mid-2012. DD is 2.5 and DS is nearly a year old. For nearly 2 years, we have been living rent-free (or, rather, on DP's constant promise of paying rent) in a totally unsuitable and frankly dangerous-for-kids annex of the home of some lovely relatives of mine. I had not gone back to work after DD was born, and spent my days at home, in the middle of nowhere, with no car, no bank account, 2 small kids to look after, while DP goes out every single day for hospital treatment. All I would do with my life, every day, is feed the kids and take them out for walks. Almost every day I am expecting that we are going to have our no-frills wedding, and every time I hope that this time it will go ahead, but DP calls with some reason why it has had to be cancelled. And almost every day I am expecting that today, finally, after a zillion hiccups, our joint bank account will finally be sorted out and we can get access to DP's massive savings and repay my relatives the money we owe them - but this never happens (N.B. I am not mercenary, I didn't care about living the high life, I just wanted a normal life and not to be in debt to my relatives). Writing all this is making my chest constrict, and maybe you can imagine the enormous stress I was under. It was really difficult to cope with all this, but 'knowing' that DP had a far more difficult battle to fight (i.e. his illness) made me feel guilty for worrying about my own troubles.

Anyway, in mid-2012, DP's excuses and stories started to build up to the extent that they become really quite implausible, and DP himself was starting to behave more erratically, presumably with the stress of keeping all the lies going. Even so, it was only after a long conversation with one of my relatives that I started to confront the possibility that DP was lying about his illness. (An aside: by this point, everyone else in my family had worked out he was lying, but they never said anything about it to me. Either they felt awkward about it or they thought I had access to more information to support my belief in him. But the fact that they all seemed to believe him itself made me think he must be telling the truth, and made me feel guilty for doubting him.) I spoke to DP on the phone - he'd gone to the hospital (or rather pretended to) as usual - and I gently asked him if he was really ill, and that maybe the problem was psychological rather than physical. Immediately he admitted it, if 'admitted' is the right term (given that, as I'll explain, he had trouble distinguishing lies from reality) - he said something like, 'yes, maybe you're right'.

From here, it's quite difficult to explain. It has turned out not to be a case of him consciously and maliciously deciding to lie. He genuinely seemed to have come to believe his own lies. I went to the GP with him and he was referred for a mental health assessment, and diagnosed with dissociative disorder, depression, and anxiety. He had large gaps in his memory and seemed not very capable of distinguishing reality from the fantasy he had invented. Over the months and years since (yes, we are still together), it has turned out that some very awful things have happened to him, and that he has been lying about things since childhood as a way to make himself feel better about himself and more important than he believes he is (he basically believes he is worthless). I think that he has been lying so long that lying comes as naturally to him as telling the truth does to the rest of us, and so it is very difficult for him to stop: much of the time, the decision to lie isn't a conscious choice.

He genuinely struggles wiith this and tries his best to get better. He has taken all the help he has been offered in terms of counselling - which isn't very much, and in my non-professional opinion he hasn't been offered the right sort of thing (basically he sees a counsellor and talks about his past, whereas I think he should be having something like CBT that would focus on getting him to stop lying, which is the root of all our problems). When I realised that we were penniless and on benefits, I saw that I would need to go back to work. I am very highly qualified but work in an extremely competitive industry where jobs are hard to come by. We lived in a shitty council flat, on benefits, for a year while I worked every spare waking minute at trying to get back to work, and eventually I did get a job. Last autumn we moved out of the shitty council estate and into a privately rented house in a nicer area.

My family, understandably, want little to do with DP after all this came out. However, whereas people tended to assume that he'd just leave after he'd been rumbled, he has not. While I've been working, he has tirelessly been a full-time dad. He is a wonderful father: far more patient than me, he adores our children and fills their days with fun things: they have planted flowers in the garden together, learned to ride bikes, etc, and he is involved with their pre-school as a committee member. At the same time he keeps our home in order, does all our grocery shopping, cleans and does the washing, etc. His only 'me time' without the kids are a night in the pub once a week with some friends who know nothing about his strange history (he doesn't get drunk, and doesn't drink much in general), and playing sport once a week during the summer. I am not trying to paint a romantic picture of him here - what I am trying to do is make the point that, whilst the lying etc might make it easy to view him as a villain, he has done his utmost to do the right thing since the problem has been identified.

The problem, though, is that he does still lie sometimes. I can't trust him not to. Sometimes he will admit it out of the blue, without me having pressured him to tell the truth, and he will be full of remorse. But sometimes when he lies, I know he is lying, but he won't admit it - and maybe can't admit it. He is not getting the right sort of mental health help to stop this, and we can't afford private treatment at the moment. And I'm left feeling that I'm dealing with it alone ... I don't really discuss it with people, and about a year ago he admitted it to his mum (which was a big deal because his mum has been through hell for various reasons recently, so he'd put off telling her). I was so pleased when he told his mum because I thought I'd have someone to talk to about it, but it hasn't worked out like that. His mum said she just needed time to digest it, then she and I would have a proper talk. But it's never happened. In the year since she found out, she's visited various family members who needed her help with various things, but she still hasn't tried to get to grips with what DP has been doing. And whilst I konw it must be upsetting for her, it also makes me see that maybe this is why DP is the way he is - he certainly doesn't seem high up her list of priorities. I feel like I've just been left holding the baby, so to speak: I'm dealing with it alone.

I never tell anyone about this. When the lies came to light, I had various friends who believed that DP was seriously ill, so I did tell them the truth in order to put them right. I rarely see them and they don't ask me about DP, perhaps understandably (what would they say?!). Everyone else - e.g. people I work with - just thinks we are a normal couple. I feel a bit like I lead a double life.

And now, I don't know whether I want this any more. I'm so tired of it all. I will always love DP, and I think he is a wonderful father, but the head-over-heels aspect of my feelings for him have gone, and I don't know if they'll come back. It's like the person I loved never existed, and whilst in the early days I was desperate to get that person back, I've sort of given up now. I know he still lies, and I really don't want it to be my problem any more - I don't want to live like this, with the stress of not being able to trust him. But, at the same time, I sort of can't imagine life without him. The children adore him. I care deeply for him and want to help him get better - I think he deserves to get better, he certainly struggles so hard with everything. I don't know what I want.

Complicating my feelings is the thought that, even if I did want out, I don't know how to get out. We live in a very expensive part of the country, and if we broke up we would have to pay for 2 households on my salary. I'm nearly 40, and hoping to buy a house in a year, otherwise I'll be too old to get a mortgage. DP could work, but we'd have to pay for childcare in that case, so wouldn't necessarily be better off. DP has occasionally said that we're not a normal couple and that if I want he will move out and find somewhere alone (presumably a crappy council bedsit), but still come over every day and look after the children. This itself breaks my heart ... his self-esteem is so low that it wouldn't even enter his head to fight for the children to live with him. He believes he deserves so little.

I have sort of lost track of what I was even wanting to ask with this post. I guess I just want to tell someone my story so that maybe, in the discussion that follows (if anyone has read this far!) I might get some clarity to my feelings.

OP posts:
socially · 30/10/2014 17:13

Really Springy? Really??

The OP should do as you say, right now, because someone somewhere in the third world is worse off than she is?

Shock

I think that might be the least helpful post I have read all year.

treadheavily · 30/10/2014 19:09

Well I happen to think you are actually moving at a rapid pace. During the time this thread has unfolded you have moved from believing your ex has a serious mental illness to facing the fact that he is "just a liar". That is huge. You have also moved him from DP to ex-DP status. That, too, is huge.

I think you are taking great strides towards your new and better life, and I believe that if, as you say, you set a goal of moving him out and finding alternative childcare, you will indeed manage it.

I understand these things take time to process mentally as well as in practical terms.

Heck, many of us have stayed in unhealthy relationships for a long longer and a lot less simply because we were too muddled/frightened/overwhelmed to manage it sooner.

One step at a time, and do stop to look back and see how far you've come because that may be the encouragement you need on a bad day, to keep going.

Mammanat222 · 30/10/2014 19:27

Gosh, I've spent today on and off reading this thread and I think I am pretty much up to speed.

I know its very early days in your decision to finally end this relationship after all that has happened and I understand that you are very tied to this man (even if it be mainly in terms of him being a SAHD) but the fact is what he has put you through is incredibly abusive.

Lets not gloss over the manipulation, the deceit, the emotional blackmail.

So making moves to ensure this man is not the soul childcare provider to your children sounds like a sensible move.

Given what you have posted can he be trusted to not involve them in his web of deceit. It doesn't mean he doesn't love them or take amazing care of them but the fact is he is a complete fantasist and his own mother [as well as yourself] has been a long term victim of his lies - the kids are unlikely to escape, you do realise that right?

I think one of the main issues here was how you decided to deal with everything to begin with. I am in no way blaming you for what he did but the fact is when it all began to unfold there were absolutely no consequences for him?

  • you stayed with him
  • you told the bare minimum of people the truth
  • you went out to work in order to sort out his mess (after spending a bit of time living in shit conditions and on benefits because of the mess he created)
  • you continued with this life even though you, yourself, admit that you were unsure if he was telling the truth about his "counselling"
  • you have obviously not spoken to any of his family or friends about this, thus enabling him to continue his web of lies with other people.
  • you have left him with your kids

Basically you have enabled his behaviour

I know you did this out of misguided love and necessity but the fact that there were no consequences back when you first posted is kind of how you have ended up back here?

I am so sorry if it sounds like victim blaming here, I actually have a lot of admiration for you because you have put up with more than most people ever would under the notion you were helping him and doing the best for your family.

BUT now is the time to stand firm and do not allow this man to get under your skin

X

springydaffs · 30/10/2014 20:48

All YEAR?! I'm honoured.

OP if you were saying you are frightened then that would be understandable - of course you're frightened, or it is a challenging thought. But you aren't saying that, you are saying it's 'untenable'. It isn't untenable in the scheme of things.

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 16:05

Hi. Am reviving this thread to ask for help with the following: How the hell do I make my XP leave?

I broke up with him just over a week ago. In that time, a couple of times I've gently tried to start a conversation about how he needs to move out and how we need to work together to ensure that this is as undisruptive as possible for the children and to ensure they're properly cared for. He is throwing up every possible obstacle. He is currently sleeping downstairs on the sofa and caring for the kids and house stuff during the day, and seems scarily willing to carry on like this. Any discussion that I try to have with him about this issue just ends up with him getting angry, unreasonable, upest, and playing the victim(!) He has threatened to take the kids away from me. He has said weird shit like, 'I'm not living anywhere the children are not living', 'You wouldn't survive without me', and 'My kids are not being cared for by childcare'.

Please don't suggest that I should leave with the children. I signed up to a 12-month tenancy only a couple of weeks ago, it's my house, he's not entitled to live in it, and if I left I'd be liable for all the rent etc. Plus, it's my bloody house and I intend to stay in it.

I've called Women's Aid today to try to get advice about this. Left a message and am waiting for them to call me back.

The best idea I've had so far is this: he is overly concerned with manipulating information that people have about him (well, obv) and last night he said something that expressed his concern that I might tell his friends about us breaking up before he does so. I'm friends with a lot of his friends on FB (although not with XP - there's another story there!). I thought I might suggest to him that if he works with me on this, he can tell his friends whatever he likes about the break-up (e.g. say I had an affair, am too fat/thin/old/ugly, can't cope with being with such a stud, or whatever) and I won't contradict him. If he's an arsehole about it, I'll post the full story as a FB status update.

Advice from the MN hive mind gratefully received.

Stopanuary · 05/11/2014 16:32

I think you should consult a solicitor - soonest! You - more than many - do need to be quite scrupulously honest, to protect yourself and as a counteraction to his behaviour.

Lying yourself and encouraging him to lie to his friends/family seems a particularly bizarre option given your history!

TheLyingOldBitchAndHerWardrobe · 05/11/2014 16:38

If it's your house and just your name on the tenancy then you can ask the police to remove him.

socially · 05/11/2014 16:51

You need to get angry and start standing up for yourself (yep, still my advice!)

The house is in your name. You call the police and you get him removed.

You need to realise that there is no way of completely protecting your children from this and the is no chance of micro managing the whole thing so that he smoothly leaves, agreeing with everything you say, and the children trip happily on oblivious.

It's a separation. It's painful, it's harsh, it's like ripping off a plaster.

Accept that people are going to get hurt and just do it.

NettleTea · 05/11/2014 16:51

if he is not XH and just XP then he hasnt really a leg to stand on.
If you dont want to live with him and he isnt on the tenancy, then you can get the police to remove him.

SignoraStronza · 05/11/2014 16:53

OP, have been following this thread with increasing horror. I think you need an emergency plan of action. Would your workplace be open to you taking a fortnight's annual/parental leave to enable you to sort out childcare, solicitor, etc?

I strongly suggest that, as the house is rented in your name and you are unmarried, you approach women's aid and/or the police to get him removed from your home.

socially · 05/11/2014 17:01

Sorry, just thinking more about this over the washing up....

He is starting to show his true colours, which actually I think is a good thing as it'll force you to face the fact that he is manipulative, psycho bully. Not a good partner, not a good dad.

You will see him for who he really is over the next few weeks and months. You need to be ready for it, it'll be a bumpy ride.

Get strong, get fierce and stop taking shit from him, because you're going to have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and it may as well be here.

Start protecting yourself and your kids.

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 17:12

Thanks everyone. I started replying to some of this and then Women's Aid called me back. I'll say in some detail what they said to me just in case it's helpful to anyone else reading this.

Since the tenancy is in my name only, and since me and XP were never married, he has no legal right to remain in the house, despite being the children's full time carer. I can, therefore, call the police at any time to have him removed.

Alternatively, and I guess this would be an option for anyone whose XP/XH had some right to be in the home, you can get something called an occupational order which is designed to remove abusers from the home. There is an organisation called the National Centre for Domestic Violence that can advise you about this - they are legally trained, unlike the Women's Aid advisers. Apparently, though, courts will not grant occupational orders lightly, since it means making violent abusers homeless, which itself creates a social problem.

After everything he has done, I don't want to make XP immediately homeless - he is the children's father and they love him. I am going to give him three months' notice to sort something else out, at the end of which I will call the police if he's not gone. I know this might seem like I'm being too soft, but I have to at least satisfy myself that I have given him the fairest treatment possible. (Of course, it's perfectly possible that he will just not doing anything and call my bluff and then act as if I have ruined his life, but hey, he does that anyway and I am waaaaaaay past being affected by it.)

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 17:14

Meant to say that the National Centre for Domestic Violence is here: www.ncdv.org.uk/ and their number is 0844 8044 999

blondenessie888 · 05/11/2014 17:24

Wow, good on you for being so strong and sticking with him during all of this.

However I think you need to put yourself first and get out. Financially it won't be easy obviously but that's not a valid reason to stay with someone.

Good luck.

CinnabarRed · 05/11/2014 17:24

Good for you. But 3 months is far, far too long - 1 month maximum.

CinnabarRed · 05/11/2014 17:24

And I'd give him a week.

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 17:43

I knew people would say 3 months is too long :D

The problem is that I know from personal experience that if he has to apply for a council flat it can take a few months, even after you get one it might not be ready for a month or so. Rather than have to get into conversations later that go, 'this isn't realistic, can I have a bit longer?' i'd rather draw a firm line and stick to it. Even after all he's done, I would feel very upset if I made my children's dad homeless by not giving him enough time.

I konw I'm too soft and that if I hadn't been in the past, things wouldn't be as bad as they are now ...

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 05/11/2014 17:45

3 months is far too long! Tell him to get out and stay with his mum. Have you sorted childcare? I wouldn't trust him to show up on time for you to get to work or trust him at all.

TheVioletTinsel · 05/11/2014 17:46

As a single man would he definitely get a council flat as quickly as that?

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 18:08

He could get a room at least

He can always get a job too, outrageous as that suggestion seems to be to him!

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 18:08

He could get a room at least

He can always get a job too, outrageous as that suggestion seems to be to him!

BalloonSlayer · 05/11/2014 18:09

I don't think a single man would get a council flat full stop where I live. It might be different where you are of course. He would be expected to rent a room.

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 18:10

I don't know whether they might have arrangements for him to be able to hvae the childrne stay with him? Well he can investigate this himself.

theonlygothinthevillage · 05/11/2014 18:11

what I mean is that maybe he would be entitled to rent a 2-bed flat so he can have the children stay with him (although whether that is a good idea, I'm doubtful). He can get a job and rent his own place.

Pandora37 · 05/11/2014 18:25

Give him 3 months if you must but be careful. I'm just thinking if you spend Christmas together and he behaves reasonably he might try and sneak his way back in.

Please don't try and bargain with him into leaving. I'd worry that it could go against you if he does decide to fight for custody, especially if he tells people you've had an affair! What would you say to the solicitor if asked, would you say well actually we lied (and knowing your ex, he may deny that and say yes you did have an affair. I wouldn't put it past him if he's making threats to take the children away). Either way, it really wouldn't look good and could all get very messy. Just stick to the legal channels, so get advice from Women's Aid, a lawyer, the police etc.

I wouldn't engage with him on the subject at all actually. Tell him he's got 3 months and that's it. I suspect you will try and help him find somewhere to live but I'd be very wary of doing this, there's too much chance that he'll try and manipulate you. He's a grown man and he's got family who can help him, I'd leave him to get on with it.

Oh and if you must give a reason for splitting up to people and you don't want to give the whole story, which I don't blame you for, just say it didn't work out. Nice and vague and no-one needs to know any more than that.