So, here I am at the age of 37, hoping that a married man is going to leave his wife for me. How did my life come to this? :-(

[ThunderHeart]

I've been married since I was 19, and have 2 primary school aged children.

Dh is a decent enough man, but he is pretty rubbish as a husband. He's hurt me very deeply several times over the years, and each time I stayed in the relationship because I have always been utterly besotted with him and could never imagine my life without him (especially once we had children).

However, once my youngest child went to school, I gradually started to detach from dh for the first time in my adult life. I started finding time spent not with him more enjoyable than the time I did spend with him. It was a totally alien feeling, but I loved it. I finally felt free. None of his selfishness or thoughtlessness could hurt me anymore, because I was finally getting to a point where it didn't matter to me.

It was around this time that I met someone else. Someone who is so so different to dh in every way. We've been 'together' now for nearly 4 years.

When it first started, I had NO intention of leaving dh whatsoever. My life was quite nice, and new man, whilst lovely, was just my way of feeling better about myself after all the years of being let down by dh.

But it didn't turn out like that. New man is everything that dh has never been, and I feel more loved by him than I ever have by dh. He adores me, he doesn't need to tell me - I just know, and I've never felt that before.

He will also ALWAYS make his children his absolute top priority in everything. Providing them with a stable family background is very important to him. At first I was glad of this, as I felt equally determined to do the same for my children. Our relationship was conducted entirely separately to family life, and that was just fine.

It's been so long now though, I'm starting to feel that everyone in this mess is living a lie, and that we are now robbing our current spouses of a fairly significant chunk of their lives

I'm possibly ready to start thinking about leaving, but I very much doubt that he will even consider it.

Cannot believe that bit by bit, this is where my life has ended up.

I feel very sad for anyone who has suffered pain as a result of a breakup no matter how it happened.

I am both a child of divorce and a "betrayed spouse". If looked at superficially my stories would give you comfort, OP.

My DM married very young, like you, to an emotionally closed (perhaps stunted) man, my DF. She had me and my DSis in her early twenties, and had become lonely and dissatisfied in her marriage by her late twenties. In her early thirties she embarked on an affair with a MM. They fell madly in love. Eventually she left my DF and the MM left his wife. To cut a long story short they got married and are still very happy together and still completely devoted to each other 30 years later. I am as sure as I can be that neither has ever strayed again. My DSis and I are both very close to our DM, we love the man who became our stepfather and are close to his children too. My parents are now on reasonable terms with each other and can chat happily at family events.

Last year my DH of 15 years had a 4 month affair following several years of unhappiness on both sides, with both of us feeling that we had no time for ourselves, that our lives were consumed by doing things for others. I discovered just after the affair had ended. We have reconciled and our marriage is better than it has been for years - we are both much more appreciative of each other and far better at communicating. I feel for the first time he now truly realises what he has in me. Strangely, the OW (a much younger single girl) and I have become friends.

All's well that ends well, yes?

But that denies the immense pain and misery inflicted on me in both cases. The years and years spent shuttling between my parents while they battled about the division of their assets and attempted to conduct that war through me. The blazing rows and hysterical tears. Seeing my DF's pain at the betrayal turn into spite and an all consuming desire to make her pay for what she'd done to him. I wouldn't say I was damaged, or am even scarred, by that experience but it was a truly terrible time that no child should have had to live through and I'm convinced that if my mother had left my father without having an affair their divorce would have been much smoother, perhaps even been amicable. And my DH's affair? I got over the sexual aspect of the betrayal relatively swiftly, though I won't deny that the mental images absolutely tortured me initially. What is harder to deal with though is the time, energy and emotion that he diverted from our family, stole from it, whilst he was having the affair, how he became so callous to me, how utterly selfish and self-centred, how he justified his affair to himself. He and OW managed to convince themselves they were doing no harm so long as nobody found out. Well it only took him to leave his phone on the kitchen table once and a message to flash up headed "my gorgeous [DH name]". OW preferred not to think about me during the affair, but now she knows me as a fully formed 3 dimensional person she feels pretty disgusted by her behaviour....

I know one person who ended his relationship without there being another woman. His girlfriend had become pregnant when they were dating, he decided to make a go of it. 5 years on he said he just couldn't pretend anymore. He didn't love her, never had and wanted to end the relationship.

He said not one person believed there wasn't another woman - The fallout was as bad as if there was and he actually said it almost would have been easier to pin the break up on an OW than have to constantly explain to disbelieving family.
People had a really hard time accepting there wasn't anyone else involved.
Not sure how realistic it is to expect people to follow this 'correct' way of ending a relationship.

It never ceases to amaze me how immature and selfish some adults are. And stupid.

OP, you might find yourself in a situation where the 'decision' about your and OM's future is taken out of your hands.

What would you do if your affair was discovered?

I was married and had an affair with a MM. We fell madly in love and convinced ourselves that both our marriages weren't that great and that our spouses were disengaged. We both planned to leave. He started separation proceedings and I started to lay the ground for it. We were caught and then had to make a very sudden decision about what to do.

Both our spouses would have forgiven and stayed but we decided to go forward.

We have now been together for five years and we are very happy.

BUT

If I had known the devastation it would cause to both our spouses (who we both assumed didn't care that much), I would think again very hard about it. I honestly did not think that my husband at the time would have cared if I fell under a bus. I was very wrong about that. He is just a very closed off person.

If I had known how much my DS would miss his dad (who was totally engaged with his son - if not me) and how having a stepfather is NO replacement, I would again think very hard about it.

The financial devastation to both the betrayed partners has been terrible for them. It would have been financial suicide for me had I not been able to join my half of assets with the OM. That feels awfully cruel for the betrayed spouses.

I was consumed with guilt for the first 3 years and found it very hard (I know, I know) to enjoy the fact that we were together. Luckily for me, I have a great relationship with my Ex and we get along better now than we have.

BUT - never, ever assume - as I did - that your husband does not care. I also know from experience that when you're having an affair, you disengage emotionally from your spouse and find all sorts of reasons to believe that your affair is justified (he's this, he's that, etc...).

It has been a very very tough road for everyone involved and I sometimes can't believe that we've made it through. Both exes are in relationships and are happy and that relieves some of my guilt but there is no doubt that there is shame attached to how our relationship started.

I wish you luck. I wish I had had the guts to leave my husband before the affair started. I had wanted to for years. I will always feel cowardly for that.

I don't agree that 'affairs are always cruel and selfish'.

What about the emotionally abused wife who has a miserable existence but nobody outside the marriage knows this - the husband is such a great guy to everyone else the kids, family, friends? The wife has her confidence destroyed, believes it's all her fault, nobody would believe her if she told them. Yes, she should leave but has become isolated and totally dependent on him. Another man shows an interest in her and they start a relationship. Is she being cruel and selfish? I don't think so. She's being many other things, not all of which are good for her, but I can't agree that she's being 'cruel and selfish'.

Btw - I'm not describing myself above.

Sweeping generalisations about 'all affairs' are very unhelpful to both those having illicit relationships and those who are the victims of them.

Thanks to Vagabond for telling her story.

I've just started to tell my husband how unhappy I am after being a coward for years. I did have a brief affair a year ago which was never going to be anything more than that. But, I've realised that unless we can make things better then it is highly likely I will meet someone else and I don't want to leave because of someone else. If I leave, I want it to be for me.

I think it is extremely important for the OP to put herself in the shoes of the wife here.

Lilywidget, we are talking here about a woman whose BF is married, who has a husband and children, and he has children, and a wife. She is planning to head into the sunset with the BF when he feels he has discharged his duty to his children, apparently leaving the wife with a house as compensation for the financial hit, and as a sop to make up for the humiliation and grief, and the pain that comes from knowing that your chance to choose or reject this fate has been stolen from you, and leaving the children with the knowledge that their family life were a lie, and any good feelings they had towards their father were based on a very incomplete picture of who he really was. This is why people are talking about cruelty and selfishness. I recommend you get into counselling and sort out what exactly you want.

I send you strength Lilywidget.

I think total honesty with your husband is the way to go.

It's amazing how distant you can get from your partner when you start to get pissed off.

I probably could have sorted things out with my ex. I just would never have had a proper, loving and sexual relationship again. I would have had companionship, instead.

I think you only have one life.

You have to live it to the most.

Proceed with caution though.

lily, it is possible for an unhappy person to do something cruel and selfish (betray their partner) even if she is given just cause and the action is right FOR HER. I am trying to get across that both things can be true AT THE SAME TIME. It is possible for an act to be both destructive and constructive, to different people and/or in different ways. It is possible, for example, for parents to divorce and to damage and hurt their children in that whilst also those children being relieved and better of with their parents apart. I know it is hard to see but actually, by arguing for that kind of nuance, I am being the opposite of generalizing.

The idea of a woman who is in a relationship where she is emotionally abused and has a miserable existence having an affair is just as general. Emotionally abusive by whose standards? What is the quality of this affair? Who is this other man? An affair, by its very definition, covers the period of infidelity. This means that even if the husband is an utter tyrant who no one could ever empathize with, the lover has to put up with and imagine his soulmate in bed with this man every night, being mistreated by him and feel the agony of anger, jealousy and betrayal, alongside his love for her. This is cruel to him. Not intentionally so, maybe, but the act makes it that. And the fact that she is doing this 'for her own good' might be right, healthy and hopeful for her future. But that is, in its own terms, selfish. Since it is about her (rightful) self-interest. In an ideal world she may encounter this man and understand something about who is out there and leave on her own terms, without an affair.

So I stand by saying that the act of an affair is cruel and selfish. I say this having had one. It can just be many, many other things as well. To deny the negative elements of the choice (to deceive and test and manipulate from within) by framing it in a simplistic fiction seems deliberately myopic to me.

Maths.... you have issues you need to resolve off this thread.

I feel sorry for you but you appear on these threads all the time with no useful advice. I think you need to get some counselling yourself. It would help you, I'm sure. Sending you good wishes.

I think Math's has made some good points (I know, I wasn't going to come back and comment :)

It's sad that those showing the most compassion (and looking outside themselves, to the extent of 'feeling' for the OW) are vilified.
Sad really

That's very rude Vagabond.
Math has given some really sound advice on many threads. Who are you to say she 'doesn't give any useful advice'?

Math is one of the most balanced and fair minded posters on MN. You are talking out of your arse, Vagabond

This topic is turning into a joke.
Posters like Maths (and myself) who are trying to give the point of the wronged wife? (for want of a better word) are continually mocked... yes we have issues as you like to point out do you fucking blame us?
I would have thought our advice would be helpful to the OP as it is helpful to see things from ALL sides.

Maybe it's time this topic was pulled.

Of course it's helpful, and maths seems very well-balanced in what she says. Vagabond comes across disingenuous and rude in her last post. This is turning into a bitchfest. But there is some thoughtful and moving writing above. I found Agonymuse's post very thought-provoking and helpful. i hope it's of value to someone, OP or not.

Such nastiness! There's no need for it.

This toic is pure Car Crash.
(just what the OP was hoping to achive I suspect) - I mean, it's not as if she can discuss her sordid little secret sorry, great love of the century to anybody in RL.

topic

It must be lonely to have an affair.
You can't be open about it and shout it to the rooftops.
Somebody might find out.
Oh, the stress.

This has turned into OWs vs wronged wives. I am the latter and I can see how ridiculous this has become!

I agree with math and sweetness and OP if you think there are heated discussions on here, be prepared for when you get found out.

FWIW, math has talked a lot of sense.

You can come on here and reminisce about your wonderful married boyfriend and first kiss though, getting the uptight mummies all riled up. Oh, the frisson

AF - I'm guessing your use of the term BF was tongue in cheek. The MM is far from a BF.

He is not your BF, you can't go to family events with him, you can't talk about him openly, you can't chat at work about what you're doing with him at the weekend - he is a secret and one who doesn't want you completely. 4 years? He will never leave his darling wife.

OP, this is another woman's husband and you have a few snatched moments over the past 4 years. What makes me more sick though is the fact that you know her every movement! That is just abhorrent - the poor woman!

Reading through what we have both posted here, I don't think anything I have pointed out on this thread is too far in disagreement with your own confessional post, Vagabond.

I have I believe focused on the OP's reliance on fantasy, which you seem to have indulged in too:
We fell madly in love and convinced ourselves that both our marriages weren't that great and that our spouses were disengaged.

I also know from experience that when you're having an affair, you disengage emotionally from your spouse and find all sorts of reasons to believe that your affair is justified (he's this, he's that, etc...).
The fantasy of being wronged, the attendant fantasy of a knight in shining armour or a Kia hatchback coming to the rescue, flattering you, professing his willingness to put aside everything that is presumably important to him for your sake, massaging your ego, etc.

I have also tried to point out to the OP that she has to stop minimising the devastation her plans will cause the wife, needs to start weighing this and also needs to start seeing the wife as a real, three dimensional person with as much of a right to her hopes and dreams as the star crossed lovers do. You seem to have been inclined to do what the OP is doing now, before you decided to re-enter the real world and put your plans into action:
If I had known the devastation it would cause to both our spouses (who we both assumed didn't care that much), I would think again very hard about it.
That is to say not really considering the emotional impact of your selfishness on the innocent parties.

The financial devastation to both the betrayed partners has been terrible for them. It would have been financial suicide for me had I not been able to join my half of assets with the OM. That feels awfully cruel for the betrayed spouses.
Or the financial, and yes you are right, it is cruelty, and they are both betrayed. Casual and completely thoughtless and cruel.

I am glad you see all of that now but hopefully the OP will start to see it sooner than you did, and maybe she will spare the wife the horrible fate that she is planning for her in her old age.

Perhaps what you are objecting to here is my blunt tone? I make no apologies for that. Too bad if it makes anyone squirm.

and maybe she will spare the wife the horrible fate that she is planning for her in her old age.

re finances - Seriously do people still regard their husbands as meal tickets in this day and age?