So, here I am at the age of 37, hoping that a married man is going to leave his wife for me. How did my life come to this? :-(

[ThunderHeart]

I've been married since I was 19, and have 2 primary school aged children.

Dh is a decent enough man, but he is pretty rubbish as a husband. He's hurt me very deeply several times over the years, and each time I stayed in the relationship because I have always been utterly besotted with him and could never imagine my life without him (especially once we had children).

However, once my youngest child went to school, I gradually started to detach from dh for the first time in my adult life. I started finding time spent not with him more enjoyable than the time I did spend with him. It was a totally alien feeling, but I loved it. I finally felt free. None of his selfishness or thoughtlessness could hurt me anymore, because I was finally getting to a point where it didn't matter to me.

It was around this time that I met someone else. Someone who is so so different to dh in every way. We've been 'together' now for nearly 4 years.

When it first started, I had NO intention of leaving dh whatsoever. My life was quite nice, and new man, whilst lovely, was just my way of feeling better about myself after all the years of being let down by dh.

But it didn't turn out like that. New man is everything that dh has never been, and I feel more loved by him than I ever have by dh. He adores me, he doesn't need to tell me - I just know, and I've never felt that before.

He will also ALWAYS make his children his absolute top priority in everything. Providing them with a stable family background is very important to him. At first I was glad of this, as I felt equally determined to do the same for my children. Our relationship was conducted entirely separately to family life, and that was just fine.

It's been so long now though, I'm starting to feel that everyone in this mess is living a lie, and that we are now robbing our current spouses of a fairly significant chunk of their lives

I'm possibly ready to start thinking about leaving, but I very much doubt that he will even consider it.

Cannot believe that bit by bit, this is where my life has ended up.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, guinness, I hope you post lots more.

Thunder, yes, they're terrifying and of course it's awkward to talk about his wife, the pain you will be causing her, even just subconsciously is huge. You sound cowardly and delusional. Please think properly about her. You are protecting yourself with all this in a way that's utterly unpleasant. Yes it's HARD to have these conversations and yes it's EASY to have an affair. So do you want to do what's easy? What would your best self do?

ThunderHeart... that last sentence of yours resonates with me so much. It's as if that part of your personality, the part of you that was part of the barometer that underpins what you say and do... has been damaged and is missing. :(

I really know what you mean if I've understood you correctly.

I just don't want you to look back on all this and really regret what you did/didn't do. Regrets are awful things.

Yes, yes! I do feel as though I've changed and I hardly recognise myself.

Question is, have I changed as a result of having the affair, or did I have the affair because I'd changed?

I did kind of reach a point in my life where I was utterly fed up being everything to everybody and nothing to myself

ThunderHeart... I think you can probably answer that question yourself. If (before meeting OM) you'd reached a fed-up point, being everything to everybody and nothing to yourself, what did you do?

I understand your feeling that way very, very much, I really do.

If you'd asked me that question though - and I was being honest with you - I'd tell you that the affair changed the barometer. I know this because you don't launch straight into an affair, it's like 'death of a thousand cuts' (ominous phrase, isn't it?). What I mean is that glances, smiles, chats, after work confiding, etc., it all takes time and is done by degrees. Your 'barometer' moves so slightly that it's almost not moving at all.

Somebody here once posted something along the lines of - "At the time you have control and could 'stop it' there's nothing to stop... by the time you realise that you've lost control and can no longer stop it - you can't.".

I feel for you more than you could know. :(

Oh, gosh - yes, it was exactly like that. We used to have lovely friendship. I remember it changing. And I remember at that stage wanting something to happen, but at the same time thinking that if I ever did really kiss him it would feel wrong and weird (having never kissed anyone else in nearly 20 years), and that I wouldn't want to do it again.

And then he did actually kiss me. And it didn't feel like that at all. It was so instantly comfortable and familiar and all sort of 'where've you been all my life'?

He clearly felt exactly the same, and I think we both knew then that we were in trouble.

Thank you so much for the compassion.

A big problem you need to get over in this situation is that this affair 'happened to' you.

You also need to get over feeling sorry for yourself for the fact that you were being everything to everybody. I do not know a single adult who does not have that feeling once they become a parent, men and women alike. (It may well be it is more justified in the case of some than others) Once you have children your life becomes one endless round of doing things for other people with little or no thanks. Most people respond by realising they have some growing up to do and then growing up and getting on with it.

You are not the first person to feel that you had lost something of yourself when the shine wore off your relationship and when children became a central part of your existence, in other words. Most people feel that they are to some extent in the backseat of their own lives when they are parenting young families. For the most part they do not respond by crossing the sort of lines you have crossed. They choose reality no matter how unfulfilling, and responsibility, integrity and decency over fantasy.

........
I suggest you start asking questions about this man's wife. I suggest you start seeing her as a real, three dimensional person and then start engaging your conscience about what you are doing to this real person. She is every bit as real as you and your husband and your children are. My guess is it feels more comfortable for you not to ask too much about her because you prefer not to remind yourself that she is a real person. It's so easy for both of you to live in your own little bubble where only the pair of you exist and nobody else's existence or problems or dreams or reality matter.

math is right- that you seem disengaged with the reality of all of this.

You've got some rather romantic ways of describing your first kiss with this man, but really the fact is that the affair had been running in your head for ages before that kiss. You'd been priming yourself for it, and unless he'd been the worst kisser in the world, it was always going to feel good- because you wanted it to be.

One thing I've noticed throughout your posts is that you disengage from us when we ask certain things. You duck, basically. You've been very good on lack of detail. Part of me wonders if this is to avoid discovery- pat on the back there girl, if that's the case- or if by being more detailed it will force you to burst the bubble you are in.

You've never said how often you see him, where you meet, how you each find the time, the lies you have to tell to cover your backs.

The romanticism would soon get a jolt of reality if we were told you had a quickie in the office when everyone had left, or a motorway hotel, or the back seat of one of your cars.

Affairs have by their nature to be furtive , conducted in secrecy. You appear to put a romantic gloss on it all and forget the lengths you are going to in order to see this man and deceive your husband.

Personally, I don't think you ought to focus on his wife. Who knows what she's like or what she is up to- maybe what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. we don't know.

You ought to focus on your own husband. If you don't love him then you ought to tell him and face up to your responsibilities.

Whatever happens, if he leaves his wife and you leave your husband, and you get together etc. the relationship you have is - and always will be - based on lies and deceit. You will always know he is capable of being utterly unfaithful to you, and he will always know the you are capable of being utterly unfaithful to him.

You will both know that are able to be liars and cheats for years and years.

I don't know how either of you would be able to avoid that knowledge underlying all your life together, everything you do or say.

How would you come to terms with the idea that every time you go out without him, some little bit of him is saying "well, she's done it before", and he will have the same problem.

Your relationship will always be mired in deceit. I'm sorry, but I can't see how this could end well except in a fairy tale. Which is make believe.

Sorry.

But Jux that isn't always so- is it?
I know of several couples- now in their 70s- who left their husbands and wives to be with other people. They haven't since had affairs.
It does happen that people meet when they are married to other people and they get together, it's all messy at first but then everyone gets used to it and moves on.

In the public eye- look at Monty Don for example. He's written about the torment he felt when he met his now wife and she was married to someone else. He felt terrible and tried to ignore his feelings, but they ended up together and have now been married for 30 years and clearly adore each other.

It's not a good way to begin a relationship, I agree, but it does happen and it doesn't always have to end in disaster.

What I keep coming back to and the OP isn't giving anything away, is how this affair is conducted- whether she sees him 4 times a year, so it's been built into a fantasy based on sporadic meetings, or if she sees him 4 times a week. It makes a difference and I hope she'll come back and join the dots.

pinkfrocks I agree with what you say. Just one point though - what difference would it make whether it was 4 times a week or 4 times a year?

The only difference is that if they meet only now and again, it's incredibly easy IMO to build up the fantasy because it's not the same as seeing someone more often. Just the same as having an affair is not the same as living with someone day after day and washing their smellies underpants and dealing with their moods. The less often people meet the more often they show only their 'best side' which prolongs the honeymoon phase.
It doesn't though make any difference to the basic situation which is that both people are deceiving others and either not willing to leave their partners, or have decided they want to have their cake and eat it.

That's not really the reality. The OM and I work nearby each other. We very rarely see each other outside of working hours. Most of our contact is lunchtimes or a quick drink after work. In the whole 4 years, we have spent a grand total of 5 nights away together. We often go long periods of time not seeing each other if one or both of us is very busy with work / family stuff.

At one point, after about a year together, we stopped seeing each other completely. It was all over for about 8 months, and we went completely no contact. Neither of us even remotely began to get over it in that time, and we ended up back together.

Actually, the OP has described how often they meet and where. (No idea how or where they manage the sex.)

All of that plus a comment that there is virtually no physical impact on anyone's life, time-wise, the comment that this man is everything her husband is not, and the description of the long awaited kiss makes me think this is a case of someone whose life is taken over by fantasy. The fantasy is enabling her to cross lines in RL however.

There is not much physical reality to the relationship. My guess is it has consumed the OP and she has managed to sustain her interest in it mainly because it is more of a 'lick and a promise' than the actual reality somewhere way down the road that she says her heart is set on. Reality would involve give and take, loo seats left up, loo brush seeing plenty of action, dishes left in the sink 'for the maid', toothpaste blobs on the sink, Sunday evenings spent chasing down details necessary for Monday morning.

I suspect if the relationship ever became reality, ThunderHeart would soon find another way of escaping, first mentally and then perhaps physically. I don't think she is led by her heart but by a corner of her head.

x post there Pinkfrocks

missed all of that math- too many pages to trawl through and RL needs my time!

But yes, we are on the same page.

OP- if this began as a platonic friendship, why don't you start by going back to that? It doesn't sound as if this is exactly a swinging from the chandeliers affair- more a case of emotional support and the fantasy that it might be more. 5 nights together in 4 years- neither of you is actually giving this your all are you?

If you can't go no contact, can you start by taking little steps back ..until you cut the umbilical?

At the same time, you are both very naive if you think your liaisons after work are going to continue to be unnoticed. Someone always sees something. If you are meeting after work and / or in your lunch breaks then the odds are that people know- even if they aren't saying anything to either of you.

exH worked in a firm where everyone knew the boss was off 'reading to the blind' when he took the occasional long lunch.

I'm talking from experience here. I had a long relationship with a colleague- all above board, we were both completely single-and we thought we'd done a great job at keeping it quiet from 'the boss/ director' though a few good friends/ colleagues knew- but would never have told. When my partner left, it was clear from what was said, that the director had known all along....

In the public eye- look at Monty Don for example. He's written about the torment he felt when he met his now wife and she was married to someone else. He felt terrible and tried to ignore his feelings, but they ended up together and have now been married for 30 years and clearly adore each other

so the end justifies the means? how long does my ex have to be with the ow before he stops being an unreasonable bastard who left a pregnant woman and turns into something from Romeo and Juliet? At what point is it Ok that she stood by a man who refuses (some 6 years later) to support his children because her and my ex adore each other? At what point does my hurt/disbelief/anger/distress get discounted? If I am left with permanent scars (and I believe this is the case, even if it has got easier as time has gone on), does that not matter? is there are point by which my experiences (which were fucking awful by anyone's standards) justify how I might be feeling become 'bitter'? If I am not re-married or living with someone within 6 months/2 years/5 years/10 years, am I automatically 'bitter' rather than simply picking up the pieces, being sensible and not moving on too quickly? why is it that if my ex marries his mistress some years down the line, they're star-crossed lovers who had to struggle to get what they wanted but I am 'bitter' because I struggle to accept it? Does it not matter that I too loved my now ex husband, with everything I had, and that nothing I did personally within our marriage meant I deserved to be treated with such disrespect? Are you suggesting that I should simply have shrugged my shoulders at the end of a 12 year relationship and 3 children and said 'never mind, shit happens'? Should our children have to accept such a woman in their lives - the kind of woman who is happy to see them turfed from their family home as a direct result of her actions and happy to see them go without in their mother's home? Or should they just put up and shut up because 'dad's happy now'? Should they have had to watch me struggle and cry and cry and struggle because their father had an affair? Or is it OK because their dad has been with the ow for 2/5/10 years?

There is way too much emphasis on the end justifying the means and not enough understanding that just because you get what you want doesn't mean that someone else's life isn't ruined, often beyond reasonable repair, as a result. Often more than one person if you include the children's lives.

fedup- how do your emotional outpourings help the OP?

You are being unrealistic if you can't accept that some marriages do break up when one or both people meet someone else.

I'm sorry if you are hurting but is a response here going to change that?

Are you suggesting that I should simply have shrugged my shoulders at the end of a 12 year relationship and 3 children and said 'never mind, shit happens'? Should our children have to accept such a woman in their lives - the kind of woman who is happy to see them turfed from their family home as a direct result of her actions and happy to see them go without in their mother's home? Or should they just put up and shut up because 'dad's happy now'? Should they have had to watch me struggle and cry and cry and struggle because their father had an affair? Or is it OK because their dad has been with the ow for 2/5/10 years?

fedupbutfine, sadly, some people are totally selfish. They will try and make out that you can't help who you fall in love with
but I say BullShit. Affairs take a lot of work. They don't just 'happen'
Just because the odd one does work out, doesn't justify uprooting and in some cases dumping your first family so you can start afresh.

But you will always get people that put whats between their legs before anything anything else.

People like to brush the pain under the carpet and ignore the suffering they cause others. It is easier and less messy for them to ignore every thing.

pinkfrocks, this is the 2nd poster that you are having a go at. I am sure that the person who made the original post has benefited from seeing advice from ALL sides.
It is very condescending to label fedupbutfines post as an Emotional Outburst.

fedupbutfine, please continue to post on this topic if you feel like it. I am also sorry for what has happened to you x

fedupbutfine your post is very moving and accurate and I am so sorry you were treated that way. I think it's beautifully expressed.

You are being unrealistic if you can't accept that some marriages do break up when one or both people meet someone else

well, it makes a change from 'bitter', doesn't it? You just don't get it.

And I fully accept that people's marriages break up. Doesn't make it right. Or OK. Or the end justifying the means.

pink, being sanguine about someone else's pain is not okay. Marriages may well break up, all the time, fedups right though, it doesn't make it 'alright'. You are coming across as really patronizing in suggesting what she can and can't 'accept.' It's not for you to say that. She has been forced to 'accept' that. More than most, and dare I say it, maybe even you.

It doesn't make it okay that the person who made vows broke them, over and over, before breaking them finally after much cruelty and selfishness. Affairs are always cruel and selfish, even if the person who has one is unhappy in the marriage. Both things can be true. Fedup is just responding to your simplicity of thought, as if there is only one narrative worth following at a time that rewrites all else. Leaving someone for someone else can be the 'right' thing for a person to do, and the 'wrong' thing to happen to someone else. The moral meaning of these terms is misleading. It can be 'best' for the cheater and 'worst' for the cheatee, if you like. The managing of experience into 'it was best for everyone' or 'shame but shit happens' just feels casual and foolish, you know?

I find all this guff about cheaters being torn apart by feelings / not being able to resist they're feelings blah blah really juvenile. Doesn't everybody have feelings ? I regularly feel like telling my mil what I really think of her , I regularly feel like telling my boss to fuck off , and I regularly feel all sorts of things. How do these people give themselves permission to act on these feelings when the rest of us are expected to reign it in ?

Op , you'd better hope that the wife doesn't also give herself permission to act on her feelings when she finds out.